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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> After Action Reports >> The Steamroller is Moving!

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The Steamroller is Moving! - 3/13/2009 6:16:07 PM

John 3rd

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Dan is not happy over comments he has gotten in his AAR and has offered to show Nemo his turn files proving that his 4EB are only on 10% Naval Search. I told him that things were OK and I would simply learn to live with it. There were, after all, ONLY 23 Naval Search 4EB hits this day! He is very defensive and I thoroughly understand.

I will limit my email comments to a minimum so he feels better and so we can get on with the last ride of the Samurai!

Current turn:

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Post #: 1981

RE: BBs versus Barges - 3/13/2009 8:15:49 PM

Nemo121

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John,

These naval bombers are using the same search routines that you benefited from ( and benefit from ) when using naval search routines to kill Allied submarines.

I think that even if Canoerebel were using 100% naval search that that would be entirely within the rules of this game but it appears he isn't using anything close to that level. He is clear it is only 10% naval search.

OTOH even 10% of bombers on naval search will get a lot of hits if they are highly experienced and the APs and AKs aren't CAPed.

I don't think this is a crock of anything and I think that when the routines work against you you have to accept it as phlegmatically as you accepted the benefits when they worked in your favour and against Canoerebel.

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Post #: 1982

RE: BBs versus Barges - 3/13/2009 9:00:41 PM

John 3rd

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I have already stated that I accept what is happening and simply want to move the game forward. Dan seems fixated on this and I am not concerned. There is no House Rule against this and it has gone somewhat both ways.

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Post #: 1983

Armistice Day 1944 - 3/13/2009 10:07:35 PM

John 3rd

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The 11th brings about big developments in India as the Offensive turns vertical as well as horizontal! A Sentai of 36 Topsy drop Paras on Hyderabad (1st Paras) and a Chutai of 12 Tina drop troops on Nagpur (2nd Para).

The laser-guided Liberator bombers manage to plant 41 bombs on Japanese AP/AK. Losses for today were 7 AP, 1 AO, and 2 AK.

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Post #: 1984

Philippines--Ceylon - 3/13/2009 10:20:13 PM

John 3rd

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The American Fleet continues to stroll along past the Philippines and Ceylon. There are no strikes from it, no AF suppression, nada...

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Post #: 1985

RE: BBs versus Barges - 3/13/2009 10:26:24 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

John,

These naval bombers are using the same search routines that you benefited from ( and benefit from ) when using naval search routines to kill Allied submarines.

I think that even if Canoerebel were using 100% naval search that that would be entirely within the rules of this game but it appears he isn't using anything close to that level. He is clear it is only 10% naval search.

OTOH even 10% of bombers on naval search will get a lot of hits if they are highly experienced and the APs and AKs aren't CAPed.

I don't think this is a crock of anything and I think that when the routines work against you you have to accept it as phlegmatically as you accepted the benefits when they worked in your favour and against Canoerebel.

Nemo--I just re-read this posting and need to comment on one point. The shipping over Trivandrum were CAPed for 3 days by 30-50 Zero and 20 Rufes when it took 26, 33, and 53 hits on those days. NO Strikes came in only the Nav Search hits. There wasn't ANY point in even trying to CAP.

I pulled the Fighters and let the planes being uncrated from the AK take over. The last two turns have had anywhere from 8-14 Japanese fighters flying CAP and so I can understand the hits occurring at that point. Prior to that was BS!

And the commentary on LBA vs. SS isn't the same. It is my choice to place (say) 300 bombers on ASW Attack. It is--after all--a dedicated mission. Using 300 bombers on a dedicated mission to gain 1 hit every other day seems much more realistic then the Nav Search function.

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Post #: 1986

RE: BBs versus Barges - 3/13/2009 10:55:54 PM

ny59giants

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quote:

Prior to that was BS!

You and I have played this game long enough to know that highly experienced 4e bombers (over 75) will score very well when on Naval Search. Considering the bomb load of a B-24, then you should expect to get hit hard. This part of the game routine has been like this for some time. I have hit a Jap CV with it.

I often place squadrons/daitai on Naval Attack with 10 or 20% naval search to assist them in finding their targets. For some reason it seems to help even if patrol planes are searching at 80% from the same base.

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Post #: 1987

RE: BBs versus Barges - 3/13/2009 11:34:02 PM

Nemo121

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CAP will intercept and degrade Naval Search missions. IF you had properly CAPed your AKs and APs you would have killed B-24s and suffered fewer hits.

Sorry John but just because you dislike a result doesn't make it BS.

As to naval search for subs. Well I would suggest that Canoerebel could say "It is my choice to put my B24s on naval strike with 10 to 20% search. It is - after all - a dedicated mission." I ALWAYS have all of my Betty Daitai on at least 10% naval search and in my current game against Damian - due to the distance to some of his shipping I have B-24s on 30 to 50% naval search ( in order to generate enough good spotting to generate strikes ). So, him using 10 to 20% naval search as part of his naval attack orders is perfectly reasonable.

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Post #: 1988

"Fighting Sokldiers from the Sky..." - 3/14/2009 12:14:36 AM

John 3rd

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Got the Ballad of the Green Beret running in my head right now!

Moving on along.

33 Air Search Hits this turn.

The Kaigun is formed up and will move towards Addu tomorrow. Once close it will sprint past Ceylon heading for Soerabaja. Now that the entire US CV Fleet is nearing Saigon, it might be rather pleasurable to see about hitting the convoy lanes in the Pacific...just a thought...

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Post #: 1989

RE: BBs versus Barges - 3/14/2009 12:22:04 AM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

CAP will intercept and degrade Naval Search missions. IF you had properly CAPed your AKs and APs you would have killed B-24s and suffered fewer hits.

Sorry John but just because you dislike a result doesn't make it BS.

As to naval search for subs. Well I would suggest that Canoerebel could say "It is my choice to put my B24s on naval strike with 10 to 20% search. It is - after all - a dedicated mission." I ALWAYS have all of my Betty Daitai on at least 10% naval search and in my current game against Damian - due to the distance to some of his shipping I have B-24s on 30 to 50% naval search ( in order to generate enough good spotting to generate strikes ). So, him using 10 to 20% naval search as part of his naval attack orders is perfectly reasonable.

Those are good points; however, don't you think that this is really the standard Love/Hate argument regarding the power of 4EB? I agree that this sword cuts both ways but it is crazy to think that this is 'normal' every day for 7 days in a row now?

Don't get me wrong on one point though. I planned to lose EVERYTHING in this operation. If I get an AK, PC, and a rowboat back to Java then that is GREAT! My expectation--this is the key--was that I would lose these ships through standard attacks that would have bothered me regardless due to the power of 4EB.

What SHOULD be hitting my shipping in ever increasing numbers of Medium bombers (B-25 and B-26). That triggers a strange thought. Dan said he had NO B-26 in the entire Pacific right now. Is that for real? It surprised me when he said so.

The planes that are creaming my support shipping are aircraft that should be nailing the Ports, AF, and Ground units I have on the move. That is what they were built for right; however, due to how WitP models 4EB they are just as powerful hitting things on the ground as they are hitting things moving at sea.

Like I said the standard argument...

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/14/2009 12:24:20 AM >

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Post #: 1990

RE: "Fighting Sokldiers from the Sky..." - 3/14/2009 12:23:15 AM

JeffroK

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Got the Ballad of the Green Beret running in my head right now!

What was the Dukes favourite phrase from that movie

Fall Back, Fall Back

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Post #: 1991

RE: "Fighting Sokldiers from the Sky..." - 3/14/2009 12:26:05 AM

John 3rd

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When I read that I clearly heard his voice in my head!

This is a DIFFERENT voice compared to the OTHER voices that constantly talk in my head. Michael or Nemo could we schedule a session regarding this concern of voices?

Am getting ready to watch Rio Lobo right now...

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Post #: 1992

RE: "Fighting Sokldiers from the Sky..." - 3/14/2009 12:27:25 AM

JeffroK

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Watching Rio Bravo right now.

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Post #: 1993

RE: "Fighting Soldiers from the Sky..." - 3/14/2009 4:29:20 AM

John 3rd

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Just finished Rio Lobo and have the Special Extended Version of Star Trek:� TMP.� Am bored with no turn...

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/14/2009 5:09:21 AM >

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Post #: 1994

RE: "Fighting Soldiers from the Sky..." - 3/14/2009 5:10:20 AM

John 3rd

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I didn't realize that I cannot spell the word Soldiers...

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Post #: 1995

RE: "Fighting Soldiers from the Sky..." - 3/14/2009 2:53:45 PM

flaggelant

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have you been able to find a stronghold, or moving formation of troops that dan will use to "stop" your assault?
or are you still roaming india without any opposition?

the US CV's might be en route to clash with yours? (cutting off the retreat to & out of DEA)
at least it would explain the low amount of sorties versus usefull targets
(i'm not reading dan's AAR)

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Post #: 1996

The Steamroller is Moving! - 3/14/2009 4:46:52 PM

John 3rd

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Good comments. There are 4 units in madras and then the two just arrived at Raipur. Have not spotted anything else other then static units. The way to Bombay is still open with only one unit present there.

The American Fleet is now one hex east of Saigon; however, the British Fleet is a hex east of the Northern tip of Sumatra. There are a few US CV with it that I know of. It is not my intention to get caught west of India. The Kaigun is 3 hexes west of Addu and will cruise tomorrow to a point just east of Addu and then will shift to normal movement and head for Soerabaja. If they try to cut me off then we shall fight with the entire Fleet concentrated and ready to go...

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Post #: 1997

Formosa Strait Action! - 3/15/2009 3:52:01 AM

John 3rd

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We got in two turns today and action is heating up around Formosa:

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Post #: 1998

I was strolling through Mangalore... - 3/15/2009 4:29:02 AM

John 3rd

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The action in India was definitely interesting again as we have ground and sea developments:

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Post #: 1999

RE: I was strolling through Mangalore... - 3/15/2009 12:59:21 PM

tocaff

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Why did you attack where you did in India and have you secured enough supplies to sustain your offensive there despite stiffening opposition? Did the plan call for the KB to withdraw and leave so many ships unprotected trying to return to friendly waters?

I understand that the plan was a suicidal last ride, but I just wanted to pick your brain a bit.

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Post #: 2000

RE: I was strolling through Mangalore... - 3/15/2009 4:11:51 PM

John 3rd

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Hey Tocaff. I'm happy to oblidge.

My intention in Operation Downfall was to bring the Kaigun as a cover, strike as hard as I could upon whatever I found, and then return to Java to try and get one move attack in before losing the Fleet. My results from the opening of Downfall were highly disappointing. Other then sinking the old BB I have bagged only about two dozen ships. I'd thought there would be a lot more.

There are three major reasons for my decision to bring the Fleet back to Java:

1. The development that has tipped hand is fuel. I brought 100,000 with me and in the period of the voyage over to now--roughly 20 days--I have used ALL of it up. If I can bag a major fuel cache somewhere in India then that would help but so far nothing. I've gotten good amount of supplies (about 40,000 so far) in the cities I have captured but no fuel.

2. The Royal Navy may be coming towards Ceylon and if it is then I will attack it. Of course I expect Dan to make sure it is under the protection of LBA since CV cannot operate in World War Two without that added protection of P-51, P-47, and P-38 aiding the very weak Corsairs that the Brits fly.

3. The vast majority of the US Navy is now enjoying the feminine delights of Saigon (for some reason) and this provides the potential opportunity to move into the Pacific and LAY WASTE.

The AP-AK are expendable. I hope to bring them home but I will suffer the loss of the Fleet needlessly on these merchants. It is a terrible thing to say but it is true. A horrible calculation...

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Post #: 2001

mangalore India Joins the Greater East Asia... - 3/15/2009 7:05:30 PM

John 3rd

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The days action in India is detailed here. Positive to this point. Figure Dan and I will get at least one more in today.

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Post #: 2002

Battle in the Formosa Strait, Day 2 - 3/15/2009 8:28:41 PM

John 3rd

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Combat Report
November 14, 1944

The Allies retreat from the demonstration of Japanese LBA on the 13rd. BB Queen Elizabeth was crippled the previous day as well as several other British warships. The Japanese prepare for a massed attack if the Allies continue moving towards their target near Shanghai. Simply put they don't and so nearly 400 planes attack the Allied formation from Formosa during the course of the day.

To protect their shipping the British put nearly 80 Fighters over their shipping. Normally this would work but the Fighter pilots are not used to large-scale multiple attacks boring in from multiple directions at highly varying altitudes. Hundreds of Japanese planes fall but a number do get through and continue to ravage the British Fleet.

It seems that British BBs are a highly sought after target these days...

As the smoke clears and the last Japanese planes crash into the sea their formation is once again shattered. Nearly 200 Kamikaze attack as well as about 100 Torpedo Bombers with an Escort of 100 Fighters. Nearly 75% are shot down but the rest get through to cause the following damage:

BB Valiant 2 Torpedoes and 4 Kamikaze (including 2 Betty that cause serious damage)
CL Mauritius 1 Torp and 2 Kamikazes
CL Enterprise 1 Torp and 2 Kamikaes

Several other AKs are hit too...

This would be the first time in months that an Allied attack has been thwarted and/or frustrated and it will serve to allow the Japanese to strengthen their Chinese Coastal positions. The other 750 planes that would have attacked from Okinawa and Shanghai pull back to Mukden to R&R and to await the next attempt...

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/15/2009 8:29:09 PM >

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Post #: 2003

Battle in the Formosa Strait, Day 2 - 3/15/2009 8:29:53 PM

John 3rd

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I forgot to add the screenshot:

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Post #: 2004

Calming in China - 3/15/2009 10:46:07 PM

John 3rd

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The 15th brings a bit of calming after the heavy aerial action of the previous two turns.

Foochow falls rather suddenly...

In India my troops keep moving and nothing exciting occurred other then the normal 53 Naval Search Bomb Hits and two solid attacks by the never miss a moving ship B-24 Squadrons. This India Operation, if anything else, proves out that Billy Mitchell WAS right about 4EB being able to win the war by themselves!!!

Just whining a lot! I am sure others have seen this sort of thing but I've never played this late into the war with heavy combat. It is amazing what those planes can do! Goodness...

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Post #: 2005

RE: Calming in China - 3/16/2009 3:28:50 AM

Prydwen

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quote:

Of course I expect Dan to make sure it is under the protection of LBA since CV cannot operate in World War Two without that added protection of P-51, P-47, and P-38 aiding the very weak Corsairs that the Brits fly.

Of course he will. One, it's a smart thing to do and, two, war isnt about fair, it's about being as unfair as possible.

~IAM

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Post #: 2006

RE: Calming in China - 3/16/2009 4:13:00 AM

John 3rd

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Totally correct!

Just got the 17th sent back to Dan. This means we played five turns today. That is pretty fine work.

No big developments for the two days. Notes:

1. There was a large 4EB strike at Gumma that hit the AF hard, shot down all my fighters, did about 35 Naka Engines damage to a plant, and and hit my Frances and Peggy Plants. For well over 500 planes it didn't do too much damage.

2. He has started hitting the AF and troops in Nanchang so an attack isn't too far away. I've ordered 2 more Inf Div there to raise the total to 8 with about 3,000 AS.

3. Troops are rolling up the road to Hyderabad and will then turn towards Bombay.

4. Kaigun is moving slowly down the map edge as fuel becomes critical. I'd hoped the not run dry but...

5. Ordered 3 TK to move to Christmas Island to use as a refueling stop. Moving another 3 to the port on the south side of Java.

6. He is landing at Suva...

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Post #: 2007

Question - 3/16/2009 4:41:33 PM

John 3rd

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I need advice fast. My CVs SHOULD be approaching Christmas Island and instead are crawling along the map board edge going slower and slower. There should be enough fuel at normal speed to reach safety but they refuel their DDs nearly every turn slowly things down more and more. I have the TF set for normal speed with destination Christmas Island.

Any helpful thoughts here?

The Combined British and American CVs are lurking just east of Sabang. Figure I've got a turn or two before things reach a crisis point.

Ideas???

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Post #: 2008

RE: Question - 3/16/2009 4:51:55 PM

Mistmatz

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This might be considered gamey, but...

As long as you travel in a sub safe zone you could group your TF's according to their range/fuel left. For example all CVs and long range cruisers travel together whereas the short legged destroyers travel in another group(s). If their is nothing to refuel from the DDs should go pretty much as far as they would regulary.

Nevertheless you should ensure the long legged and the short legged TFs have slightly different paths to avoid accidential refueling.

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Post #: 2009

RE: Question - 3/16/2009 5:03:09 PM

witpqs

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The function that decides when to refuel seems based upon the range remaining for the two ships involved (and ops points and whatever else). The point is that ships with low range would refuel from the first day at sea from ships with high range. The last patch improved this so that a ship has to be below some percentage of its fuel capacity before the refueling routine kicks in (maybe 75% or 80%, I forget exactly).

The big problem is that once your big ships (that are providing the fuel) get lower on fuel themselves, they will not fill the destroyers all the way up. So, instead of getting up to 100% fuel and having several days until needing to refuel again, the destroyer might be just above that 75 or 80% threshold (or even below it) and therefore will request refueling again the next day!

In other words, unless you break off some of the ships doing this, it will just keep happening. For fighting TF's I always use the longest range destroyers that otherwise fit the bill. Still, when the whole TF is getting low on gas, this daily refueling will happen no matter what. It will only stop when the big ships get low enough on fuel that they will not provide any.

Note that the 'Do Not Refuel' switch has no effect on this. It only affects refueling in port.

Sorry.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 3/16/2009 5:05:11 PM >

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Post #: 2010

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