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WIF board game - 3/14/2009 4:28:38 PM

willycube

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Joined: 1/24/2005
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Qustion for the board game players, I understand the first move will cover Sept. and Oct. 1939, whether you are playing one or more players or playing the AI is it possible for Poland to surrender in that move if the German player is very competent or reasonably compentent or does it depend on luck or both? In the SC games speed is important, Poland must fall early so you could be in position to invade France in May of 1940. Does a real time line of WW2 effect your game play? Like oh I better take Poland no later than October and France must fall by July 1940. Just curious because I am starting to get itchy about this game which is a good thing.

Willy

Post #: 1

RE: WIF board game - 3/14/2009 4:53:28 PM

lomyrin

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From: San Diego
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First, the September/October moves consists of several impulses, you could even consider each impulse pair (Axis and then Allies) as whole turns in themselves. Usually Germany will have 3 or 4 impulses (subturns) in the first Sep/Oct 39 turn to knock out Poland. Weather may change from each impulse pair. The end of the entire turn is vaiable and depends on die rolls.

Some players are not in a hurry to take out Poland, then it could last for another whole turn or even into 40. Other players will split the German forces and besides taking out Poland may also take out Denmark and possibly the Netherlands in Sep/Oct 39. Yet others may align Hungary and attack Yugoslavia and then align Rumania in the Sep/Oct turn.

France usually falls in summer of 40 but again the importance of that event depends a lot on what plans the Axis have for the war.

All in all the game is very open to the Axis deviating a lot from history and it allows for very safe or very risky decisions to be made and carried out.

Lars

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 2

RE: WIF board game - 3/14/2009 4:58:02 PM

Orm

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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

Qustion for the board game players, I understand the first move will cover Sept. and Oct. 1939, whether you are playing one or more players or playing the AI is it possible for Poland to surrender in that move if the German player is very competent or reasonably compentent or does it depend on luck or both? In the SC games speed is important, Poland must fall early so you could be in position to invade France in May of 1940. Does a real time line of WW2 effect your game play? Like oh I better take Poland no later than October and France must fall by July 1940. Just curious because I am starting to get itchy about this game which is a good thing.

Willy

If Germany commit enough forces they will conquer Poland during Sep/Oct 1939 with average luck (with bad luck Poland might survive). If Germany commits heavily against Poland only extremely bad die rolls can save Poland.

Each turn (like Sep/Oct 1939) is divided into impulses where you get to move your units. Germany can count on moving and fight at least 3 times during the first turn.

There is no fixed dates that you must have done things. It is obviously better to conquer France sooner than later but as long as you capture some resources and have light losses you are in no big trouble. As long as you can declare Vichy France in 1940 you are doing reasonably well. Germany is in real trouble if France survives untill USA enters the war.

< Message edited by Orm -- 3/14/2009 5:00:05 PM >

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 3

RE: WIF board game - 3/14/2009 5:10:21 PM

Mike Dubost

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

Qustion for the board game players, I understand the first move will cover Sept. and Oct. 1939, whether you are playing one or more players or playing the AI is it possible for Poland to surrender in that move if the German player is very competent or reasonably compentent or does it depend on luck or both? In the SC games speed is important, Poland must fall early so you could be in position to invade France in May of 1940. Does a real time line of WW2 effect your game play? Like oh I better take Poland no later than October and France must fall by July 1940. Just curious because I am starting to get itchy about this game which is a good thing.

Willy

Well, one of the major differences between WiF and many turn-based games is the impulse system. The Sep/Oct turn contains many "sub-turns" called impulses.

Can you take Poland in 1 impulse? I would have to say, no unless your opponent is incompetant. Can it be done in 2 or 3 impulses with reasonable skill and no bad luck? Yes.

In general, by the end of October, it is quite possible to take Poland out. Of course, poor choices or bad luck may be enough to prevent that too, especially now. I have played a bit with older versions where the weather was set for an entire turn, not as it now is for an impulse pair. If the weather turns bad, you can get bogged down.

As far as the broader question of how tied are you to the historical timeline. I would have to say only to a limited degree. It is true that the longer France or the USSR gets to build up, the harder it is to take on, but well, that is realistic. The players on both sides have so much influence on events that the historical timeline should be regarded as a rough guide only.

For example, US entry is driven by events, as well as time. The Fall of France will push the US closer to war, for example, but a French attack on Belgium to buy space to trade for time would push the US farther from war. It is barely possible for unlucky or incompetant play by the Allies to prevent the US from ever going to war in one or even both theaters. Granted, the Allies would have to behave with reckless disregard for US entry levels for this to happen, but it could.

The other fun thing is that the US entry effect of an action is varriable. Each action that impact US opinion has a die roll break-point (in practical terms, since it is a d10, multiply the number by 10 to get a %) to make the US player draw, discard, or move a random "chit". The chits have different values, so some are of negligible impact and others are of major impact. Thus, in one game, the Fall of France may cause the US to draw low value (or even 0 value) chits, while in the next, it could be high value chits. Not even the other Allies are sure of the impact.

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 4

RE: WIF board game - 3/14/2009 7:52:54 PM

willycube

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I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.
I would imagine that speed was essential to the axis {Japan, Germany, and Italy} in the board game to get as many resources as it could capture before the allied growing power would start to effect the game in its later stages. I ask these questions because I believe it would help all other newbies like myself to have you experienced players to give us some insight in the games mechanics rather then phrases from rule books, not that you do that but sometimes your tech talk goes right in one ear and out the other, I know listen better. Thanks for all of your help.

Willy

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 5

RE: WIF board game - 3/14/2009 10:32:34 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.
I would imagine that speed was essential to the axis {Japan, Germany, and Italy} in the board game to get as many resources as it could capture before the allied growing power would start to effect the game in its later stages. I ask these questions because I believe it would help all other newbies like myself to have you experienced players to give us some insight in the games mechanics rather then phrases from rule books, not that you do that but sometimes your tech talk goes right in one ear and out the other, I know listen better. Thanks for all of your help.

Willy

You can also read some game reports to help you understand how the game plays, and how it feels.
There are some (mine) here : http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm
The latest is here : http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/PartieXVII.zip

You can also read the tutorials here, to get a grasp of the mechanics.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1555882

You can finaly download the rulebook for a more precise reading.
http://www.a-d-g.com.au/download/WiF-RaW-7-aug-04.doc

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 6

RE: WIF board game - 3/15/2009 2:49:41 AM

willycube

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Froonp thank you for showing me the battle report, what I would like to know is this kind of standard for a battle for France, It is march/april 1941 and France is still not conquered. I know you and the people you play with are experienced players, but is this an all out attack on France since May 1940? I am not comparing this to SC but if France does not fall by August or September 1940 Germany has a time problem for the build up to attack the Soviet Union by June, July, or August 1941. I know there is a huge difference between these two games but time lines should be about the same to win this game. Is France able to be defeated by the end of 1940? Does it take luck, good play, bad defence, What! Or all of the above.

Willy

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Post #: 7

RE: WIF board game - 3/15/2009 3:28:45 AM

Mike Dubost

Posts: 273
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From: Sacramento, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.
I would imagine that speed was essential to the axis {Japan, Germany, and Italy} in the board game to get as many resources as it could capture before the allied growing power would start to effect the game in its later stages. I ask these questions because I believe it would help all other newbies like myself to have you experienced players to give us some insight in the games mechanics rather then phrases from rule books, not that you do that but sometimes your tech talk goes right in one ear and out the other, I know listen better. Thanks for all of your help.

Willy

My experience with the final version of WiF is limited to playing cWiF against myself, so I may not be the best authority, but I have tested out several strategies. The invasion of the UK is not a simple task. It requires a fair bit of luck, and a firm commitment to a building strategy. It is much more difficult than in the old computer game of 3R. Never having played A3R against another player, or SC at all, I cannot compare it to those.

It is also worthy of note that taking the UK does not mean knocking the Comonwealth out. It puts a heck of a dent in their production and force pool, but they keep fighting.

The assets lost in taking the UK are less critical than the time factor, in my opinion. In order to take the UK, you will often find yourself still fighting in summer of 1941. This does not preclude an attack on the USSR, but history tells you how that two-front war worked out for the Kaiser and for Hitler.

I agree that time is of the essence for the Axis. They must take enough resources and also enough land. Trading space for time is an important strategy.

(in reply to willycube)

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RE: WIF board game - 3/15/2009 9:46:20 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

Froonp thank you for showing me the battle report, what I would like to know is this kind of standard for a battle for France, It is march/april 1941 and France is still not conquered. I know you and the people you play with are experienced players, but is this an all out attack on France since May 1940? I am not comparing this to SC but if France does not fall by August or September 1940 Germany has a time problem for the build up to attack the Soviet Union by June, July, or August 1941. I know there is a huge difference between these two games but time lines should be about the same to win this game. Is France able to be defeated by the end of 1940? Does it take luck, good play, bad defence, What! Or all of the above.

Willy

You may look at other game reports on the same website, you'll see that the Fall of France in our group never was so late.
Typicaly France falls between J/A 40 and N/D 40.
The observed deadline for Germany being able to turn back the the East to launch Barbarossa in M/J 41 is N/D 40.

Germany has a number of tools that she can use to defeat France in the timeframe above (Offensive Chits, Armored suppremacy, Air superiority, HQ superiority, better overall army). Sheer bad luck, or a bid player skills difference can offset the timetable, but then Germany can try winning in other ways. Barbarossa is not mandatory in WiF.

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 9

RE: WIF board game - 3/15/2009 10:38:06 AM

oscar72se

Posts: 100
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From: Gothenburg Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Germany has a number of tools that she can use to defeat France in the timeframe above (Offensive Chits, Armored suppremacy, Air superiority, HQ superiority, better overall army). Sheer bad luck, or a bid player skills difference can offset the timetable, but then Germany can try winning in other ways. Barbarossa is not mandatory in WiF.

In order to defeat France quickly as a german player you need three things:
1. Timing, you must carefully choose when to unleash your superior forces in the great offensive (OC)
2. A little bit of luck with the weather, there is nothing as devastating for the french player as loooong turns with fine weather...
3. You need to take calculated risks, you don't have time to "play it safe" and you can't afford to take too big risks (unless you're willing to risk losing the entire game of course)

/Oscar

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 10

RE: WIF board game - 3/16/2009 7:53:56 AM

Neilster

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Willy, historically France was defeated (and the Low Countries overrun) incredibly quickly given the respective opponents. Pretty much everything went right for the Germans, they had a brilliant plan, the weather was perfect, their force structures and tactics were far superior, the Allies fell into their trap and probably most of all a strange paralysis afflicted the Allied High Command when it all started to go horribly wrong. They missed several opportunities to at least slow the Wehrmacht down and even to deliver a nasty reverse.

If we re-ran history there is a significant probability that the Campaign in the West would have taken the Germans quite a bit longer. Apparently this is borne out in professional military simulations. In general in WiF, it is pretty difficult to emulate the historical pace of early war Axis conquest, often because the Allied player is forewarned by the events of 70-odd years ago. The flip-side is that later in the war the Axis can have some rational leadership, unlike the disastrous pack of fruitcakes the actually had.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 11

RE: WIF board game - 3/16/2009 2:07:22 PM

micheljq

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From: Quebec
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.

Willy

If you are speaking about Strategic Command the PC game, a game I played a lot myself and enjoyed. In terms of complexity SC can hardly be compared to what MWiF will be. I think you will like MWiF too.

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 12

RE: WIF board game - 3/16/2009 4:00:28 PM

composer99

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The Germans can usually defeat France without an offensive chit (which means two for Barb or other purposes), but they need to be luckier than if they don't use one.

In (M)WiF, you don't need to attack USSR in a Barbarossa-style campaign to win; but usually you must do some damage to the Soviet forces in 1942-43 (at the latest) to keep them from being absolute monsters in the end-game.

_____________________________

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Post #: 13

RE: WIF board game - 3/17/2009 2:02:12 AM

willycube

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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.

Willy

If you are speaking about Strategic Command the PC game, a game I played a lot myself and enjoyed. In terms of complexity SC can hardly be compared to what MWiF will be. I think you will like MWiF too.

Thanks Mich for your comment, I really wasnt trying to compare except in the time line such as France May 1940, Russia June 1941 for launching invasions, SC is a fast well done beer and pretzels game, this game seems to me at the moment heads and tails over SC in complexity and detail.

Willy

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Post #: 14

RE: WIF board game - 3/17/2009 2:11:45 AM

willycube

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The Germans can usually defeat France without an offensive chit (which means two for Barb or other purposes), but they need to be luckier than if they don't use one.

In (M)WiF, you don't need to attack USSR in a Barbarossa-style campaign to win; but usually you must do some damage to the Soviet forces in 1942-43 (at the latest) to keep them from being absolute monsters in the end-game.

Composer are you saying Russia cannot be defeated in this game, they could not be beaten historical but I do hope that Germany has a chance to beat them just not inflict a lot of damage and then attempt to hold on for dear life. Not being argumenatve just trying to learn from you and other players how this games paramaters are dealt with.

Willy

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 15

RE: WIF board game - 3/17/2009 3:25:37 AM

macgregor

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It can indeed be done. Just remember air supply missions can render a couple of bypassed flipped over out-of-supply cavalry units the ability to cutoff an entire army group..

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RE: WIF board game - 3/17/2009 2:12:18 PM

composer99

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Russia can be defeated in (M)WiF; the point is Germany doesn't have to go for it every game.

_____________________________

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Post #: 17

RE: WIF board game - 3/18/2009 5:44:46 AM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
If we re-ran history there is a significant probability that the Campaign in the West would have taken the Germans quite a bit longer.

If not playing with the amphib optional rule, France can help The CW attempt an early conquest of Italy, in which case you can count on France being vichied early as well (whether or not the gambit succeeds), due to the forces that would be guarding Paris being tied up in Italy.

< Message edited by coregames -- 3/18/2009 5:48:02 AM >

_____________________________

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Keith Henderson

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Post #: 18

RE: WIF board game - 3/18/2009 1:32:05 PM

iamspamus

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I haven't played in a while, but I always found that France was more of a b!+ch to take out than the historical timeline.

For the question of historical timeline, I'd say that it diverges from historical with the first dice thrown. The beauty of the system is that though it divergest, players must generally play with historical constraints. Enjoy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

Froonp thank you for showing me the battle report, what I would like to know is this kind of standard for a battle for France, It is march/april 1941 and France is still not conquered. I know you and the people you play with are experienced players, but is this an all out attack on France since May 1940? I am not comparing this to SC but if France does not fall by August or September 1940 Germany has a time problem for the build up to attack the Soviet Union by June, July, or August 1941. I know there is a huge difference between these two games but time lines should be about the same to win this game. Is France able to be defeated by the end of 1940? Does it take luck, good play, bad defence, What! Or all of the above.

Willy

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 19

RE: WIF board game - 3/18/2009 1:36:59 PM

iamspamus

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I've never seen it done. I've only played say 7 or 8 games, though. I think that it is nigh on impossible.

I would say that it's "possible" for Germany/Japan to "win", but often this involves either doing better in the game than they historically or the allies giving up when they realize that they can't win.

Thoughts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

The Germans can usually defeat France without an offensive chit (which means two for Barb or other purposes), but they need to be luckier than if they don't use one.

In (M)WiF, you don't need to attack USSR in a Barbarossa-style campaign to win; but usually you must do some damage to the Soviet forces in 1942-43 (at the latest) to keep them from being absolute monsters in the end-game.

Composer are you saying Russia cannot be defeated in this game, they could not be beaten historical but I do hope that Germany has a chance to beat them just not inflict a lot of damage and then attempt to hold on for dear life. Not being argumenatve just trying to learn from you and other players how this games paramaters are dealt with.

Willy

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Russia can be defeated in (M)WiF; the point is Germany doesn't have to go for it every game.

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 20

RE: WIF board game - 3/18/2009 2:05:07 PM

micheljq

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In the campaigns I played Axis did win more often that the Allies. And I saw at least 3 campaigns where USSR was defeated, two of them in 1941 it took 2 turns the USSR was smashed beyond redemption. Another one where USSR faced a 41 Barbarossa but gave up in July/August 1942 his front did collapsed everywhere.

Most often, a player doing USSR the first time will stuff the border and be massacred on the first impulses, like I did the first time.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 3/18/2009 2:06:22 PM >

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Post #: 21

RE: WIF board game - 3/18/2009 5:25:48 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

In the campaigns I played Axis did win more often that the Allies. And I saw at least 3 campaigns where USSR was defeated, two of them in 1941 it took 2 turns the USSR was smashed beyond redemption. Another one where USSR faced a 41 Barbarossa but gave up in July/August 1942 his front did collapsed everywhere.

Most often, a player doing USSR the first time will stuff the border and be massacred on the first impulses, like I did the first time.

What I like most about WIF is that the outcome depends more on the skill of the players than which country they control or the die rolls.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 22

RE: WIF board game - 3/18/2009 9:53:28 PM

Sewerlobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iamspamus
I haven't played in a while, but I always found that France was more of a b!+ch to take out than the historical timeline.
For the question of historical timeline, I'd say that it diverges from historical with the first dice thrown. The beauty of the system is that though it divergest, players must generally play with historical constraints. Enjoy.

I quickly learned that in WiF, France is not the easy knock off that it is made to be in other strategic wargames for play balance. If you want France to fall in June of 1940 after an October '39 fall of Poland, it's going to take work and planning. It was disquieting to me the first couple of games to accept the amount of German forces lost to achieve this time table. Of course if you've never played WiF, the first few games are the most likely to result in unusual endings. If you're the Axis do not let France survive, she may not have the biggest force pool but she's way too close to Axis factories -- I'm not quite sure I'd trade a conquered Britian for an unconquered France at US entry; well yeah I would but I'd be worried. Again though all this is a big plus for WiF, there is no reason to believe that an unmolested WWII France could not have developed into a very serious threat to Germany.

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Post #: 23

RE: WIF board game - 3/19/2009 2:52:44 AM

willycube

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Great answers members appreciate it. The only board game I ever played was Advanced 3rd Reich, played a lot of computer games, mostly beer and pretzel games like the Strategic Command Series. Always the same when you play as the Axis, Poland falls no later than Oct. 1939, Denmark in Nov. or Dec. 1939 depending on the weather, the low countries and France are defeated by July , Aug, maybe Sept. 1940 again depending on the weather, Greece and Yugoslavia by early 1941, this is against the AI not a human. Russia must be attacked by June at the latest for any chance of taking them out early, normally Russia falls by middle to late 1943 depending on the weather. After that you go after the British Isles even with the American build up there. Taking them and the allies is no major task with the German power that has been built up. Its always the same game after game, I am sure if it were a capable human opponet that time table would have some holes in it. What I like about the explanations here is that anything could happen because of the dice roll and probably does. It sounds like from what I read in these posts is that a very competent experience player playing an inexperienced but reasonably sound strategy game player, the inexperienced player has a possible chance of winning with some luck and the dice roll. Maybe?

Willy

< Message edited by willycube -- 3/19/2009 2:54:49 AM >

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Post #: 24

RE: WIF board game - 3/19/2009 3:56:39 AM

paulderynck

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If the inexperienced player is the axis - perhaps. Like most games, inexperience hurts most on defense and since the allies defend for the first half of the game, an inexperienced palyer will be too far behind the 8-ball to make a comeback, IMO.

OTOH, you learn more from a thorough a$$-kicking then from a walk-over.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/19/2009 3:57:09 AM >

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Post #: 25

RE: WIF board game - 3/19/2009 6:39:19 PM

praem

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The one thing in my mind that destinguish WIF from most other games is the production system. This system makes it impossible to go after an invasion of UK and still be able to have the forces to invade the USSR with any real chance of succes.
Even planning for a straigth forward land war, takes carefull planning of production because of the gearing limits.

This is allso what makes countries like Japan so dificult to learn for newcomers. You tend to get too focused on short time goals (China for Japan) and end up not having the forces in plaze for the real show.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 26

RE: WIF board game - 3/19/2009 6:41:39 PM

micheljq

Posts: 791
Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

This is allso what makes countries like Japan so dificult to learn for newcomers. You tend to get too focused on short time goals (China for Japan) and end up not having the forces in plaze for the real show.

What is the real show? I never played Japan. Any advice for first nippon timers?

(in reply to praem)

Post #: 27

RE: WIF board game - 3/19/2009 7:02:32 PM

composer99

Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
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The real show is the war against the US & the campaign in the Asia-Pacific theatre (e.g. India, Australia, Indian/Pacific Ocean).

For some initial advice, I suggest checking out the Japan AI thread, since a lot of discussion has gone into trying to get good play out of the Japanese AI. Presumably, at least some of that discussion could be good for humans too.

Edit: The thread is at http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=987325

< Message edited by composer99 -- 3/19/2009 7:05:30 PM >

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(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 28