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RE: Why the AI doesn´t research?

 
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RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 2/28/2009 12:12:00 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, I´m considering to release an AI optimized Bombur mod with a simplified tech tree, where each tech you give you multiple units. Let us see how it works....

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 241
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 2/28/2009 12:20:39 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

I guess I don't understand fully what the gates are doing there in concept. Is it that once a gate is passed, (purchased) new techs are released ?

Are the old techs obsoleted or blocked ? So, if a gate is passed then techs not selected are no longer available ? For instance, If I pass the gate without buying the previous level techs, I can't purchase those techs at all, (not even the old ones) in my current era ?

I think the concept is workable and interesting, but I don't understand how they work ATM.



The "gates" are specific techs, necessary to purchase every unit avaiable in a given decade. So, if you want to research any post 1950 unit, you must research the 1950-1959 gate for the related area (land, naval or air). So, researching a gate opens a lot of news techs (but not all techs in a decade, some of them need the intermediate trchs). Let us see an example. Researching the 1900-1909 naval tech will open you the armoured cruiser II and the Cargoship medium. The armoured cruiser II is a pre requisite for the Battaleship II, which in turn is a pre requisite for the Battlecruiser I. So the 1900-1909 tech is absolutely necessary for you to develop the BB II, but it´s not enough. This was made to give a taste of historical realism, but it wasn´t very good for the AI....I will keep the mod as it stands for PBEM and create a simplified tech tree for the AI. Not sure if it works...

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 242
FINALLY IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING!!! - 3/1/2009 1:32:18 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		-The simplified tech tree is working very well. First tests and the AI was able to research sucessive Vehicle tech (10 levels) which gave it all vehicles in the game. Now let´s go to ships. It will be time consuming. Eventually this simplified research tree will be the default mod, replacing the file we are using now. It depends on feedback from gamers.

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 243
RE: FINALLY IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING!!! - 3/1/2009 3:54:49 AM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Congrats ! You now have a light at the end of the tunnel.

I was wondering, when you made the surface to surface missle SFT, were you thinking of an ICMB, land to land missle or anti-ship missle ?

I began working on the STS missle symbol and I caught myself thinking I had misinterpreted the intent. Let me know.



_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 244
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/1/2009 4:00:46 AM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

I guess I don't understand fully what the gates are doing there in concept. Is it that once a gate is passed, (purchased) new techs are released ?

Are the old techs obsoleted or blocked ? So, if a gate is passed then techs not selected are no longer available ? For instance, If I pass the gate without buying the previous level techs, I can't purchase those techs at all, (not even the old ones) in my current era ?

I think the concept is workable and interesting, but I don't understand how they work ATM.



The "gates" are specific techs, necessary to purchase every unit avaiable in a given decade. So, if you want to research any post 1950 unit, you must research the 1950-1959 gate for the related area (land, naval or air). So, researching a gate opens a lot of news techs (but not all techs in a decade, some of them need the intermediate trchs). Let us see an example. Researching the 1900-1909 naval tech will open you the armoured cruiser II and the Cargoship medium. The armoured cruiser II is a pre requisite for the Battaleship II, which in turn is a pre requisite for the Battlecruiser I. So the 1900-1909 tech is absolutely necessary for you to develop the BB II, but it´s not enough. This was made to give a taste of historical realism, but it wasn´t very good for the AI....I will keep the mod as it stands for PBEM and create a simplified tech tree for the AI. Not sure if it works...



The AI can't look forward into the tech tree. But you can make the gates attractive to it and that way lead it to use what it wants to. But it's tough because the AI doesn't know that the things it may want are behind those gates, it can only evaluate the gates themselves against other choices.

Interesting problem.


_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 245
RE: FINALLY IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING!!! - 3/1/2009 11:43:53 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Congrats ! You now have a light at the end of the tunnel.

I was wondering, when you made the surface to surface missle SFT, were you thinking of an ICMB, land to land missle or anti-ship missle ?

I began working on the STS missle symbol and I caught myself thinking I had misinterpreted the intent. Let me know.




I have two cruise missiles: one is modelled in the V-1 and the other is the Soviet SS-N-3 (antiship)
I have only one ballistic missile: it´s based on V-2

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 246
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/1/2009 11:45:45 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:



The AI can't look forward into the tech tree. But you can make the gates attractive to it and that way lead it to use what it wants to. But it's tough because the AI doesn't know that the things it may want are behind those gates, it can only evaluate the gates themselves against other choices.

Interesting problem.



-Yes, the gates are incompatible with the AI. I made the tech tree for ships and unfortunately, the AI doesn´t seem to research them...on the other side, it seems not to research ships in default scenarios too....


< Message edited by Bombur -- 3/1/2009 11:05:00 PM >

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 247
Help from Vic again... - 3/1/2009 11:07:16 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Up to now the AI is able to research vehicles and infantry (all 10 levels for vehicles and 6 levels for infantry). The AI ocasinally develops ships (only 2/8 levels). The question is: how to make the AI research ships. I´m using battleships as SF picture for levels 1-6 and missile cruisers for levels 7 and 8.

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 248
RE: Help from Vic again... - 3/2/2009 8:09:45 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		For starters the AI will not research cargoships. Nor Aircraftcarriers. Only AIRole_Raider and AIRole_SeaSupriority

kind reg,
vic

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 249
RE: Help from Vic again... - 3/2/2009 10:12:05 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		All my pics are from naval superiority (Battleships and the missile crisers). Still, the AI is researching very few naval units. Maybe a few sub pics would help????

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 250
RE: Mod for random maps - 3/3/2009 12:32:07 AM   
timberwolf15

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		Ah Forget 1900 have it Start at Caveman days maybe a guy with rocks then a guy with a club invent spears and stuff come on don't think small ... then end the tech with a death star that blows the whole map apart or bring in Alien vs Predator ... get a grip man put in a real tech tree.. then let VR have it and they can sell it .. lmao ..

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 251
RE: Mod for random maps - 3/3/2009 12:56:38 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: timberwolf15

Ah Forget 1900 have it Start at Caveman days maybe a guy with rocks then a guy with a club invent spears and stuff come on don't think small ... then end the tech with a death star that blows the whole map apart or bring in Alien vs Predator ... get a grip man put in a real tech tree.. then let VR have it and they can sell it .. lmao ..



Not a bad idea....not sure if I will be alive when the mod is ready....

(in reply to timberwolf15)
Post #: 252
RE: Mod for random maps - 3/3/2009 3:38:43 PM   
srndac

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur


quote:

ORIGINAL: timberwolf15

Ah Forget 1900 have it Start at Caveman days maybe a guy with rocks then a guy with a club invent spears and stuff come on don't think small ... then end the tech with a death star that blows the whole map apart or bring in Alien vs Predator ... get a grip man put in a real tech tree.. then let VR have it and they can sell it .. lmao ..



Not a bad idea....not sure if I will be alive when the mod is ready....



LOL!
(didn't want to start this post like that - but after Bombur's answer - I just had to ... )

But really:
Bombur, you seem to punch out those versions of your mod like on an assembly line: I don't even manage to finish one game of current version, and you have already posted the next ... and with that kind of speed you might just make the timberwolf's wish come true ...

Okay, now seriosly:

1. I don't know if that's how you envisioned it or not, but infantry in your mod still moves faster off-road than on-road ... while some other units (like cavalry for example) move as fast on-road as off-road. Against all historical precedent I might say ...

2. Do you plan to add some replacement for horses? Meaning: yes, the German (and Soviet) army used them extensively in all circumstances during the WW2, but the Yanks did start to use Jeeps for light-weight tough-terrain mobilizers, while the Brits used their Bren Carrier in a similar role, I believe. They could be used for recon, as well.

cheers!
srndac

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 253
2 New Symbols - 3/4/2009 8:21:45 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Congrats ! You now have a light at the end of the tunnel.

I was wondering, when you made the surface to surface missle SFT, were you thinking of an ICMB, land to land missle or anti-ship missle ?

I began working on the STS missle symbol and I caught myself thinking I had misinterpreted the intent. Let me know.




I have two cruise missiles: one is modelled in the V-1 and the other is the Soviet SS-N-3 (antiship)
I have only one ballistic missile: it´s based on V-2




Ok, did one for each of these:




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 254
RE: 2 New Symbols - 3/4/2009 8:22:32 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		PT Boat up next.

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 255
RE: Mod for random maps - 3/5/2009 1:21:08 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: srndac


quote:


But really:
Bombur, you seem to punch out those versions of your mod like on an assembly line: I don't even manage to finish one game of current version, and you have already posted the next ... and with that kind of speed you might just make the timberwolf's wish come true ...


-Because I´m always detecting new bugs, some of them gamebreaking...this mod gaves me much more work than expected....

Okay, now seriosly:

quote:


1. I don't know if that's how you envisioned it or not, but infantry in your mod still moves faster off-road than on-road ... while some other units (like cavalry for example) move as fast on-road as off-road. Against all historical precedent I might say ...


-That´s a mistake, will be fixed (now, with the new Bombur AI mod each of these fixes will give me double work...well....)

quote:


2. Do you plan to add some replacement for horses? Meaning: yes, the German (and Soviet) army used them extensively in all circumstances during the WW2, but the Yanks did start to use Jeeps for light-weight tough-terrain mobilizers, while the Brits used their Bren Carrier in a similar role, I believe. They could be used for recon, as well.



Hmmmmm...I´m not intending to create extra units, now that I have two different files, but maybe I could change my mind....
Are you enjoying the mod? Playing vs. human?


(in reply to srndac)
Post #: 256
RE: Mod for random maps - 3/5/2009 3:42:16 PM   
srndac

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:



quote:


2. Do you plan to add some replacement for horses? Meaning: yes, the German (and Soviet) army used them extensively in all circumstances during the WW2, but the Yanks did start to use Jeeps for light-weight tough-terrain mobilizers, while the Brits used their Bren Carrier in a similar role, I believe. They could be used for recon, as well.


Hmmmmm...I´m not intending to create extra units, now that I have two different files, but maybe I could change my mind....
Are you enjoying the mod? Playing vs. human?



Oh yeah - I'm enjoying it. I'm playing vs. myself currently (mostly to see what kinds of units are in it) (oh and did I mention that I'm beggining to suffer from schizophrenia?) ... but there's a small possibility that I might get my friends to try it out - so I'm holding on ... (no matter what that little voice inside my head says. )

cheers!
srndac

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 257
PT Boat Symbol - 3/5/2009 9:02:13 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

PT Boat up next.



Here's the PT Boat symbol. I really like the way this one turned out.



Attachment (1)

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 258
RE: PT Boat Symbol - 3/6/2009 1:23:43 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you again, Jeffrey. Will make the changes as soon as possible...

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 259
RE: PT Boat Symbol - 3/6/2009 7:44:39 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur

Thank you again, Jeffrey. Will make the changes as soon as possible...


So sweat, I'm not volunteering for more work but these are taking ~20 minutes per unit which I can bang out 1 during my lunch hour at work. It does give me a little feeling of accomplishment.

Anyway, on to the self propelled artillery.



_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 260
Self Propelled Atrillery Symbol - 3/11/2009 8:13:13 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Here are the two self propelled artillery symbols. I don't like these so much, but I think they are reasonalbly good looking:

1 if for self propelled atrillery and the other is for self propelled anti-aircraft artillery.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 261
RE: Self Propelled Atrillery Symbol - 3/14/2009 2:59:01 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		AI compatible Bombur mod is almost ready. Will be released soon.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 262
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/14/2009 3:05:25 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Liked the look of the SP artillery and SPA artillery counters. However they should be placed lower in the picture. When played they show hovering above the ground. Above other counters.

Was actually thinking about stealing them for some own mod. Thats why i bother to point it out. Cant change them myself since they are in black background colour.


(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 263
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/14/2009 5:30:48 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Hmm....not sure why that is. I have a few hunches though. I had a similar problem with the first attempts at Zeppelins and coastal artillery that Bombur posted pics of. It was due to sizing IIRC. I'll take another look at them.

If you could post a screenie it might help.


_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 264
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/14/2009 9:19:47 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		With my new AI version ready, I´m starting to playtest the files. Jeffrey. Here is the PT boat image, it seems somewhat bigger than expected....




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 265
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/15/2009 4:29:34 AM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Hrrrm....I didn't see the AI version in the sandbox.

I think I can shrink the image down a bit. I'll play with it a little.


_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 266
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/15/2009 2:37:34 PM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Hrrrm....I didn't see the AI version in the sandbox.

I think I can shrink the image down a bit. I'll play with it a little.



I didn´t upload it....yet....but I can send you the file. Drop me an e-mail to afenelon@terra.com.br and I give you the scenario. I´m playtesting it and would like to know your opinion.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 267
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/15/2009 7:59:24 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Email sent.

One of the tricky things about these counter graphics is knowing what the pixel boundary is for the symbols. I've played around with some of the ones that came with the game and found them to roughly be 29w x 22h with the "zero" on the top right corner of the counter.

The process I use to create these typically involves actual photos and these are often not easily scaled to the area of the counter allocated to the unit symbol without distortion of the image. 

If anyone has found some more info to add on this, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 268
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/16/2009 7:26:48 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Wow, that mod is a handful !



On a more sedate note, I tweaked the symbols a bit for the PT boat, SPA and SPAA SFT's. They might look a little better.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 269
RE: Why the AI doesn´t research? - 3/19/2009 1:29:58 AM   
Bombur

 

Posts: 3642
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		New graphics installed. Thank you.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 270
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