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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/17/2009 7:33:11 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

quote:

The goal is to produce a scenario that models the situation as accurately as possible.


So long as you don't have to describe your criteria in a way that any potential player could evaluate your model, your accuracy, or whether they should put any effort into playing your scenario....



Not what I said. The rest of your post seems to continue in this vein, too.


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/17/2009 7:38:39 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser
In terms of the actual "counting rifles" approach to rifle squads, Curtis is more correct than Colin.  TOAW III is all about counting rifles.  It's how Norm designed the game.  Colin's "intangible" approach might sound nifty, but his approach is a square peg trying to fit into a triangular hole. 


You could just as easily reverse this argument. Norm has given you a more or less reasonable analysis of the 'hard' factors -- so part of your job as the designer is to think about how to weight the 'soft' factors.

Take the Stuka. Using 'hard' factors, an 'early' Stuka is about half as effective as a 'late' Stuka.

Anyone comparing the impact Stukas had on the battlefield in 1939-40 to that they had in 1942-43 will realize that there's a problem here. In fact, there's a problem with the early Stuka's rather modest numbers, period.

So I modify the 'early' Stuka so that it has the bombardment values of the late Stuka -- but not the increased range. I could argue that's part of my job as a designer.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 3/17/2009 7:46:51 PM >


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/17/2009 7:44:02 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

In terms of the actual "counting rifles" approach to rifle squads, Curtis is more correct than Colin.  TOAW III is all about counting rifles.  It's how Norm designed the game...


Maybe. However I recoil from Curtis' approach for two reasons.

The first is admittedly irrational. I prefer that 36 rifle-squad battalions have 36 rifle squads. If I did anything, I'd probably modify the values for the squad rather than add more squads. As I noted earlier, I routinely modify values for each scenario I design, so there's no problem there.

The second reason is somewhat easier to defend. I think that Norm's density values err on the side of being too restrictive. One will be severely penalized if one jams in as many troops into a given area as historically often were jammed in.

I've never worked out what should be done about this. However, in the meantime, following formulas that increase the amount of equipment in each unit will obviously worsen the problem.


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/17/2009 8:03:08 PM   
ColinWright

 

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There's another consideration as well -- something that I've run into.

This may strike some as heresy, but TOAW does not offer a fully comprehensive simulation of warfare. You can do things in it that you can't do in real life.

...Like stick artillery in the front lines and use it to provide ranged fire support.

So you may work out that the _____ field howitzer should have an AT value of 10 and that in the typical unit, there would be the equivalent of one rifle and three light rifles for every actual artillery piece.

However, if you simply apply these conclusions, you may find that you've created a scenario where it pays players to use their artillery in very ahistorical ways.

Maybe not. It would depend on the scenario. This sort of consideration is what inclines me towards scenario-specific design. After all, the notion of a universal engine is not necessarily completely valid. One could argue that it is the designer's job to ameliorate the resulting distortions, not reinforce them.

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/17/2009 9:29:37 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

[EDIT: Note to Golden Delicious, all those extra men in the Polish rifle battalions (and squads) made for a very cumbersome command situation that was nowhere near as lean and efficient as the German organization


Well I just presumed that the Polish army as a whole had a cumbersome command structure- and designed accordingly.

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/17/2009 9:33:25 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
The second reason is somewhat easier to defend. I think that Norm's density values err on the side of being too restrictive. One will be severely penalized if one jams in as many troops into a given area as historically often were jammed in.


This really comes across in Bo- Curtis' France 1944 scenario. When I tried that, it was virtually impossible to avoid density penalties. See, every unit had about twice as many active defenders as I would have expected.

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Post #: 36
RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/17/2009 10:35:50 PM   
vahauser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

There's another consideration as well -- something that I've run into.

This may strike some as heresy, but TOAW does not offer a fully comprehensive simulation of warfare. You can do things in it that you can't do in real life.

...Like stick artillery in the front lines and use it to provide ranged fire support.

So you may work out that the _____ field howitzer should have an AT value of 10 and that in the typical unit, there would be the equivalent of one rifle and three light rifles for every actual artillery piece.

However, if you simply apply these conclusions, you may find that you've created a scenario where it pays players to use their artillery in very ahistorical ways.

Maybe not. It would depend on the scenario. This sort of consideration is what inclines me towards scenario-specific design. After all, the notion of a universal engine is not necessarily completely valid. One could argue that it is the designer's job to ameliorate the resulting distortions, not reinforce them.


I generally agree that each .eqp file and each scenario should be designed on a scenario-by-scenario basis. This, to me, is the biggest problem with the Directive 21 scenario currently being playtested--it tries to tackle too big a time frame (1941-1945) on a game scale that doesn't quite fit (15km hexes and 1/2-week (or 25km hexes and 1-week) turns would have been better). The unit density issues are very apparent in that scenario, too. [Aside: I started a thread a year or so ago on this very issue of density problems at the smaller hex sizes.]

But, to return to the topic at hand, how designers decide to handle representing rifle squads within their scenario can vary greatly. This is amply shown by the variety of replies in this thread. I prefer the Golden Delicious/Curtis Lemay approach but also using an .eqp file of my own design for each scenario.

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 6:57:35 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

There's another consideration as well -- something that I've run into.

This may strike some as heresy, but TOAW does not offer a fully comprehensive simulation of warfare. You can do things in it that you can't do in real life.

...Like stick artillery in the front lines and use it to provide ranged fire support.

So you may work out that the _____ field howitzer should have an AT value of 10 and that in the typical unit, there would be the equivalent of one rifle and three light rifles for every actual artillery piece.

However, if you simply apply these conclusions, you may find that you've created a scenario where it pays players to use their artillery in very ahistorical ways.

Maybe not. It would depend on the scenario. This sort of consideration is what inclines me towards scenario-specific design. After all, the notion of a universal engine is not necessarily completely valid. One could argue that it is the designer's job to ameliorate the resulting distortions, not reinforce them.


I generally agree that each .eqp file and each scenario should be designed on a scenario-by-scenario basis. This, to me, is the biggest problem with the Directive 21 scenario currently being playtested--it tries to tackle too big a time frame (1941-1945) on a game scale that doesn't quite fit (15km hexes and 1/2-week (or 25km hexes and 1-week) turns would have been better). The unit density issues are very apparent in that scenario, too. [Aside: I started a thread a year or so ago on this very issue of density problems at the smaller hex sizes.]

But, to return to the topic at hand, how designers decide to handle representing rifle squads within their scenario can vary greatly. This is amply shown by the variety of replies in this thread. I prefer the Golden Delicious/Curtis Lemay approach but also using an .eqp file of my own design for each scenario.


Yeah. I'm sure it's already on the wishlist, but density penalties and when they apply really should be designer controlled. Aside from the question of whether Norm's values really do represent some kind of median -- I think they're too severe -- it would also eliminate the problem noted with the approach used by Curtis and others, where for one reason or another, they've upped the weapon count from what others might employ.

Parenthetically, one thought that occurred to me when reading about Russian mass attacks -- and mass attacks in general -- is that some armies probably didn't really have a choice.

The traditional eighteenth-nineteenth century model of soldiers packed in like sardines offers one obvious advantage. People are much braver -- and much easier to control -- if they have their fellows right alongside them. I was in riots in the Sixties as a kid, and this is true. If you're part of a mass, you'll do things you'd never have the nerve to do if you felt isolated. Like fling rocks at heavily armed cops and then charge them. I remember the thoughts going through my head. Pack people tightly enough together, and you just don't feel a sense of personal danger -- at least so long as the crowd in general doesn't panic.

For this reason, armies have generally been as densely packed as the firepower of the era will permit -- and sometimes will past the era. Armies that had well-motivated material and could afford the luxury of extensive infantry training -- the German army of World War II, the Americans, the British -- could launch attacks with the soldiers widely dispersed.

Other armies -- the Russians of 1941-43, the Chinese of 1950-53 -- did not. They probably could not. To maintain control, to keep everyone advancing required a dense mass. As to what that meant one machine gun could do -- well, that just had to be accepted.

It's interesting. Now, how completely valid this is, and how to reflect it in design, I don't know. More generally, the whole topic of morale, and 'proficiency' -- which are often two very different things -- could do with a more refined treatment in TOAW.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 3/18/2009 7:05:04 AM >


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 7:00:28 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


...Bo- Curtis'...


Bokurt? CurtCross? That last is a little less mystifying.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 3/18/2009 7:01:10 AM >


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 5:50:24 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser
In terms of the actual "counting rifles" approach to rifle squads, Curtis is more correct than Colin.  TOAW III is all about counting rifles.  It's how Norm designed the game.  Colin's "intangible" approach might sound nifty, but his approach is a square peg trying to fit into a triangular hole. 


You could just as easily reverse this argument. Norm has given you a more or less reasonable analysis of the 'hard' factors -- so part of your job as the designer is to think about how to weight the 'soft' factors.

Take the Stuka. Using 'hard' factors, an 'early' Stuka is about half as effective as a 'late' Stuka.

Anyone comparing the impact Stukas had on the battlefield in 1939-40 to that they had in 1942-43 will realize that there's a problem here. In fact, there's a problem with the early Stuka's rather modest numbers, period.

So I modify the 'early' Stuka so that it has the bombardment values of the late Stuka -- but not the increased range. I could argue that's part of my job as a designer.


I don't know how I'm getting dragged into this issue. I have no problem with using soft factors for equipment values - or any other factors, for that matter.

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Post #: 40
RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 6:02:35 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Maybe. However I recoil from Curtis' approach for two reasons.

The first is admittedly irrational. I prefer that 36 rifle-squad battalions have 36 rifle squads.


It's subjective. Which is more important: Getting the number of squads right, or getting the number of rifles & MGs right? I prefer the latter.

quote:

If I did anything, I'd probably modify the values for the squad rather than add more squads. As I noted earlier, I routinely modify values for each scenario I design, so there's no problem there.


Well, there is the issue of "fine control" that I posted about earlier. There are a limited number of integers available for squad values. Can you accurately distinguish between that 8-man squad with 2 LMGs vs. that 13-man squad with 1 LMG? You can with a mix of squads.

quote:

The second reason is somewhat easier to defend. I think that Norm's density values err on the side of being too restrictive. One will be severely penalized if one jams in as many troops into a given area as historically often were jammed in.


Sorry, but your way gets the density wrong. In your version, both 36-squad units will have the same density, despite one having 8-man squads and the other having 13-man squads. My way gets the density right. Now, you can complain about the density penalty all you want, but that's not a defensible solution.

Note: It also gets the lift requirements right, too.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 3/18/2009 6:13:33 PM >

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 6:06:36 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
The second reason is somewhat easier to defend. I think that Norm's density values err on the side of being too restrictive. One will be severely penalized if one jams in as many troops into a given area as historically often were jammed in.


This really comes across in Bo- Curtis' France 1944 scenario. When I tried that, it was virtually impossible to avoid density penalties. See, every unit had about twice as many active defenders as I would have expected.


So, "France 1944" is one of the few scenarios out there that gets the density at Normandy right. Most other versions make you think you're on the eastern front.

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 6:07:35 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


...Bo- Curtis'...


Bokurt? CurtCross? That last is a little less mystifying.


Anyone for Delicious Ben?

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 7:16:08 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
So, "France 1944" is one of the few scenarios out there that gets the density at Normandy right.


No I disagree. In that scenario, it was literally impossible to avoid density penalties without limiting yourself to one unit per hex. That's too much. At this scale, one should have say two regiments per hex as a standard, plus support troops- and more if there's an offensive going on. As it happens, the density penalties are so high that one tries to conduct offensives with as few units as possible.

Besides that, you have all those American cooks and clerks going in and getting massacred by German armour with the rest of them. They may have had rifles, but they didn't fight.

Now, take your excellent Soviet Union 1941 scenario. There your cooks and clerks sit at the back until the **** hits the fan. That's a better approach.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 3/18/2009 7:22:27 PM >


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 7:23:59 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


...Bo- Curtis'...


Bokurt? CurtCross? That last is a little less mystifying.


Anyone for Delicious Ben?


Mm. You can refer to him that way if you wish. The rest of us will draw whatever conclusions seem most appropriate.


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 7:24:44 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Anyone for Delicious Ben?


Sorry, always seems weird to use other peoples' psuedonyms, but have to be careful as some have been known to flip out if you use their real name.

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Post #: 46
RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 7:43:08 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


Sorry, but your way gets the density wrong. In your version, both 36-squad units will have the same density, despite one having 8-man squads and the other having 13-man squads. My way gets the density right. Now, you can complain about the density penalty all you want, but that's not a defensible solution.





Logically, notta necessarily. Assuming Norm's values err on the side of forcing excessive dispersal, my approach would lead to values being randomly off within some range -- say between 10% and 30%, just to pull numbers out of the air. Your approach would lead to them being consistently off by some larger value -- say between 30% and 35%. That the error is now falling within a smaller range doesn't alter the fact that it's a larger error.




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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 7:44:01 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Anyone for Delicious Ben?


Sorry, always seems weird to use other peoples' psuedonyms, but have to be careful as some have been known to flip out if you use their real name.


Some who shall remain nameless. Otherwise He will flip out.

...a cold wind runs through the internet ether. Has the foolish Colin provoked the Volcano God again?


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 3/18/2009 7:52:47 PM >


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 7:51:25 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
So, "France 1944" is one of the few scenarios out there that gets the density at Normandy right.


No I disagree. In that scenario, it was literally impossible to avoid density penalties without limiting yourself to one unit per hex. That's too much. At this scale, one should have say two regiments per hex as a standard, plus support troops- and more if there's an offensive going on. As it happens, the density penalties are so high that one tries to conduct offensives with as few units as possible.


I haven't played Bob's scenario, but I've seen this syndrome in the work of others.

It's a real bummer. The most egregious problem is that small support units -- like assault gun battalions, etc -- can't do exactly what they historically did: stack with the big infantry units. Instead, you have to form ahistorical combined arms teams of all the random small units. 'Sorry major, we don't support infantry regiments. Just engineering companies, ski battalions -- that sort of thing.'

In general, how a scenario is designed will force/encourage certain modes of play. That's really the acid test of whether the design is good or bad. If it encourages historical behavior, it's more reasonable to label it 'good' than if the reverse keeps happening.


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/18/2009 8:30:18 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

In general, how a scenario is designed will force/encourage certain modes of play. That's really the acid test of whether the design is good or bad. If it encourages historical behavior, it's more reasonable to label it 'good' than if the reverse keeps happening.


Yeah. Density penalties plus the low attrition divider mean that infantry is basically toast in this environment. Your best defensive units are the ones which contain as high a % as possible of armour. Forget combined arms- just a row of fortified tank battalions will be an impregnable defence.

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/19/2009 5:53:49 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
So, "France 1944" is one of the few scenarios out there that gets the density at Normandy right.


No I disagree. In that scenario, it was literally impossible to avoid density penalties without limiting yourself to one unit per hex. That's too much. At this scale, one should have say two regiments per hex as a standard, plus support troops- and more if there's an offensive going on. As it happens, the density penalties are so high that one tries to conduct offensives with as few units as possible.

Besides that, you have all those American cooks and clerks going in and getting massacred by German armour with the rest of them. They may have had rifles, but they didn't fight.

Now, take your excellent Soviet Union 1941 scenario. There your cooks and clerks sit at the back until the **** hits the fan. That's a better approach.


So, in other words, it appears you do think Normandy should have the same density as the eastern front. If so, you're mistaken. It's essential that Normandy be high density. And, I think I've got it about right, based upon the scenario's performance.

And I'm not including cooks and clerks. If I had done that, each division would have had 1800 squads in it. I am modeling more than just the immediate frontline elements, though - although you'll find that most of that is actually in rear-area units (artillery, AAA, AT, HQ, engineer, etc.).

Whether I include those elements is situation dependent. You won't find them in Cambrai, for example. It depends upon whether the fight was contained within the frontline elements or whether rear-area elements got involved, too. Normandy is the latter case. The Germans weren't pulling units out once the frontline elements had been lost. They were fighting more or less to the last man. Therefore, those men have to be modeled. And if I've modeled them in the Germans I have to model them in the Allies too, or the scenario would be unbalanced by the different standards.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the discussion about how to model squads. What parts of the unit are modeled is a different question from how to model whatever parts are included.

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/19/2009 6:05:31 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Sorry, but your way gets the density wrong. In your version, both 36-squad units will have the same density, despite one having 8-man squads and the other having 13-man squads. My way gets the density right. Now, you can complain about the density penalty all you want, but that's not a defensible solution.


Logically, notta necessarily. Assuming Norm's values err on the side of forcing excessive dispersal, my approach would lead to values being randomly off within some range -- say between 10% and 30%, just to pull numbers out of the air. Your approach would lead to them being consistently off by some larger value -- say between 30% and 35%. That the error is now falling within a smaller range doesn't alter the fact that it's a larger error.


What a convoluted line of reasoning - just to hopelessly try to prop up your obviously wrong position. Let me repeat: your method gives the same density to two units that differ in size by a ratio of 13:8.

Even assuming you have some actual basis for claiming Norm got the density thing wrong (highly dubious), the rational solution would be to treat squads as if they were proportionately larger formations.

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/19/2009 6:12:14 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


What a convoluted line of reasoning - just to hopelessly try to prop up your obviously wrong position...


Awww...It's growling!!!!

Can I scratch you behind the ears?


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 3/19/2009 6:18:17 PM >


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/19/2009 9:11:20 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
So, in other words, it appears you do think Normandy should have the same density as the eastern front.


No, I think one should use the same design philosophy regardless of the front- as you did in your Germany 1945 scenario.

quote:

Normandy is the latter case. The Germans weren't pulling units out once the frontline elements had been lost. They were fighting more or less to the last man. Therefore, those men have to be modeled. And if I've modeled them in the Germans I have to model them in the Allies too, or the scenario would be unbalanced by the different standards.


But the rear-area elements of the Allied divisions weren't involved in the fighting. So in fact you have unbalanced the scenario by applying the same standard to different situations.

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Post #: 54
RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/20/2009 5:09:03 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Normandy is the latter case. The Germans weren't pulling units out once the frontline elements had been lost. They were fighting more or less to the last man. Therefore, those men have to be modeled. And if I've modeled them in the Germans I have to model them in the Allies too, or the scenario would be unbalanced by the different standards.


Note that your solution is less than ideal. After all, we now have the battlin' cooks of the 51st Highland. This is not simulation.

I think I'll take this opportunity to plug one of my ideas.

If we had a total cap on the weapons in a unit, then you could have German divisions with a cap of -- say -- 500 weapons. They start with 324/324 heavy rifle squads, 176/176 all-the-other-crap, and 0/200 light rifles. They can't get any of the light rifles because they're full up. They already have 500 weapons. You could even overfill them -- set the cap at 400 or so -- so that the divisions have to take fairly heavy losses before they can start throwing in the cooks et al.

Anyway, as the division starts taking losses -- but only once it starts taking losses -- it can start filling those light rifle slots. So without having behemoth rifle division where everyone fights from the start and screw cooking dinner, you have a division that keeps filling up the light rifle slot as it weakens otherwise -- in short, behaves something like its historical original.

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/20/2009 8:03:41 AM   
L`zard


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It's all about the 'SCALE' from what I can see.......

My own view is "leave it up to the designer" and allow the tools to make it so........one shouldn't LIMIT the designer, we should have a wider scope of variables instead!

Not all scenarios will be 'WW II' based, and while ToaW might have started this way, why keep it so?

Lot's of scenarios have different parameters, eh?

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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/20/2009 5:05:50 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
So, in other words, it appears you do think Normandy should have the same density as the eastern front.


No, I think one should use the same design philosophy regardless of the front- as you did in your Germany 1945 scenario.


I'm not suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that Normandy is supposed to be dense. The fact that it is so in my scenario is a good thing. Using the same standard as in France 1944, an eastern front scenario wouldn't be dense. Why would anyone expect to have that same condition in Normandy?

quote:

quote:

Normandy is the latter case. The Germans weren't pulling units out once the frontline elements had been lost. They were fighting more or less to the last man. Therefore, those men have to be modeled. And if I've modeled them in the Germans I have to model them in the Allies too, or the scenario would be unbalanced by the different standards.


But the rear-area elements of the Allied divisions weren't involved in the fighting. So in fact you have unbalanced the scenario by applying the same standard to different situations.


I'm very satisfied with the scenario's balance. And those Allied rear-area elements keep the Germans from exploiting frontline losses to launch unrealistic counterattacks - which they could if they hadn't been modeled.

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Post #: 57
RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/20/2009 5:24:22 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Note that your solution is less than ideal. After all, we now have the battlin' cooks of the 51st Highland. This is not simulation.


Pretty close to ideal. Have you read my AAR?:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1546619

and:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1726673

(I love plugging them).

And, as I said earlier, I'm not including any cooks or clerks. Just combat elements other than the ones for the immediate frontline areas.

quote:

I think I'll take this opportunity to plug one of my ideas.

If we had a total cap on the weapons in a unit, then you could have German divisions with a cap of -- say -- 500 weapons. They start with 324/324 heavy rifle squads, 176/176 all-the-other-crap, and 0/200 light rifles. They can't get any of the light rifles because they're full up. They already have 500 weapons. You could even overfill them -- set the cap at 400 or so -- so that the divisions have to take fairly heavy losses before they can start throwing in the cooks et al.

Anyway, as the division starts taking losses -- but only once it starts taking losses -- it can start filling those light rifle slots. So without having behemoth rifle division where everyone fights from the start and screw cooking dinner, you have a division that keeps filling up the light rifle slot as it weakens otherwise -- in short, behaves something like its historical original.


But the divisions aren't receiving them as replacements. They're actually there on the ground - just in the rear. They are immediately available in the event of a breakthrough - not showing up several turns later. Perhaps that way will work, but it will be subject to the obscurities of the TOAW replacement system, so maybe not.

And, of course, no such facility was (or is) available to me when I was designing France 1944.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 3/20/2009 5:34:35 PM >

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Post #: 58
RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/20/2009 5:38:52 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
So, in other words, it appears you do think Normandy should have the same density as the eastern front.


No, I think one should use the same design philosophy regardless of the front- as you did in your Germany 1945 scenario.


I'm not suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that Normandy is supposed to be dense. The fact that it is so in my scenario is a good thing.


There is the minor problem that as Ben noted, actually taking up positions in this density is tactically suicidal. Not only will you suffer severe losses, but you won't hold the hex either, as the decimated units will tend to evaporate or retreat out.

This leads to one of two possibilities. Either the historical Germans were complete idiots, or your scenario doesn't simulate the reality of the situation very well. That is to say, even if the troops were densely packed in, they couldn't have suffered the kind of increased losses this behavior will produce in TOAW.

Personally, my guess is that your denials notwithstanding, you're running afoul of Norm's excessively rigorous density penalties. If you do pack the troops in, you'll get hammered -- and if you've made the units larger still, the problem will be still worse.

Really, the whole issue could do with some analysis and discussion. But we won't get it. We'll stall out (once again) over the issue of whether your scenario is or is not perfection incarnate.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 3/20/2009 9:26:01 PM >


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RE: Rifle Squad Differences? - 3/20/2009 7:32:08 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

[I'm not suggesting otherwise. What I'm saying is that Normandy is supposed to be dense.


If you have to add masses of extra equipment to achieve this then obviously something has gone wrong.

I'm pretty sure it would be dense regardless. In my match, I recall I had a lot of combat units piled up in the rear areas to avoid density penalties. Reduce the levels of equipment in units and these go straight into the front line hexes- and you still have a dense battle.

quote:

I'm very satisfied with the scenario's balance. And those Allied rear-area elements keep the Germans from exploiting frontline losses to launch unrealistic counterattacks - which they could if they hadn't been modeled.


Frontline losses? Hell, if the other guy takes a lot of losses you have to call off the attack. Go for those three fat infantry regiments with the density penalty instead.

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