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AI and Grappling - 3/21/2009 9:55:34 PM   
sw30

 

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Units controlled by the AI do nothing when grappled. I've not seen them shoot or try to capture. So the best strategy so far in detailed naval combat is to close and grapple. Then use un-opposed grapeshot to take down their morale, and they'll all surrender. I captured 30 out of 30 spainish ships just now. (only kept 6, but that's a big blow...)

Incidentally, AI never attempts to repair. even to unfoul or to put out fires.

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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/22/2009 4:20:07 AM   
ShaiHulud

 

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Overall, your observations mirror my own, except, I have seen grappled ships fire at others. Other than that, they pretty much just vegetate and then surrender.

Oh, my best is ten captured..heh. Your ratio 6/30 is about what I've gotten, too. 10% to 15% seems to be the max. Anyway, captures pretty much suck for morale. I'm not sure I want to use them in my fleet!

(in reply to sw30)
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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/22/2009 6:21:05 PM   
ericbabe


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Not sure why this would be off the top of my head, but I'll take a look.  Thanks.

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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/23/2009 3:31:23 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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Just last night I had a grappled Russian Merchant savage my Privateer with cannon shot after being grappled.  It was enough to make me lose the battle!

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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/23/2009 3:45:05 PM   
Anthropoid


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Could it be difficulty settings? Or maybe the morale of the units once they are grappled? Maybe low morale units that grapple are 'hesitant' to use force?

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/24/2009 2:08:53 AM   
sw30

 

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Even if they don't attempt to capture, they should still fire their guns.  The current optimal strategy is to close, grapple, and just hit the repair key while you wait for the other ships to grapple.  Then, start taking over the ships one by one until the opponent runs, but they can't cuz they're all grappled, so they all surrender.  You can win massive battles without firing a shot.

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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/24/2009 12:00:21 PM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sw30

Even if they don't attempt to capture, they should still fire their guns.  The current optimal strategy is to close, grapple, and just hit the repair key while you wait for the other ships to grapple.  Then, start taking over the ships one by one until the opponent runs, but they can't cuz they're all grappled, so they all surrender.  You can win massive battles without firing a shot.


Have not tried that myself, and you got to admit it is gamey. But if it really does work >50% of the time then it is an exploit that should be addressed. Again though, difficulty level might be figuring in somehow?

My main observation on the AI's ability to wage detailed naval battles:

a) cannot approach a humans ability to coordinate all ships to maximize concentratioin of firepower at critical points in the enemy formation.

b) does not concentrate firepower on single enemy ships

c) suffers quite a bit of fouling from bumbling into itself

d) whereas I start firing almost immediately even if I do miss 80% of the time at ranges in the 8 to 10 hex ballpark, I nonetheless do get a _few_ hits, and by firing almost every time that I possibly can, and concentrating my fire on their lead ships/ships that will blockup their formations, I generally have knocked down their WTF by one or two points within two or three rounds of combat opening. Unless they have sizeable lead in ship numbers/firepower, it is generally all over with from there.

e) AI seems to think that its 1st Rate ships are the best thing to attack with but cumulatively in my experience, even a stout 1st rater cannot standup to a withering two or three rounds of concentrated fire at ranges from 8 down to 3 from 8 or 10 3rd raters.

f) Whereas I immediately try to divide my force in half with a lead line moving forward then turning properly relative to the wind to broadside the enemy, going to full speed and full sails to zip past them while a second line often will either push arond the top or bottom of my first and create a corner force that will again cross-the-T of the enemy at the perpendicular plane . . . the AI just moves his ships toward me, with sails cut down to half of fight configuration and speed at medium, and the 25 to 40% of his ships which do bother to fire during the first 3 or 4 rounds of combat just fire at whatever is directly across from them instead of concentrating their fire on a limited number of targets. This means that, I get 3 or 4 rounds of solid pounding against two to four of his lead ships, by the time our main masses are within 3 or 4 hexes, and/or stragglers are starting to pass through enemy guantlets, I have by concentrating my fire dropped his WTF by 1 to 3 points, and meanwhile I have suffered 8 or 10 ships that have suffered light damage and casualties. Another 3 to 7 rounds of this and the enemy is shattered.

Now admittedly, this is a brilliant tactic on my part so the AI should not be _too_ chastised if it cannot cope. Cannot imagine what it is like to program that baby . . .

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/24/2009 3:37:53 PM   
moose1999

 

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I find that grappled enemy ships do indeed fire back - and often with devastating effect!
I've been mauled like this so many times that I now only grapple from the front or the back of enemy ships to avoid those broadsides with 'grapple-bonus' added, which can really screw up a good boarding action.
Only in special circumstances - if the enemy is on the verge of breaking, for example - will I try to grapple from the side.
So this works fine in my experience.



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regards,

Briny

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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/24/2009 4:25:14 PM   
Randomizer


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I try to avoid grappling like the plague, if you have guns why use a cutlass unless things are going very badly?

It is unfortunate that CoG-EE treats ships like land units in too many respects and I suspect that much of the buffoonery shown by the AI is a function of the (seemingly) land-based movement system imposed. Naval combat does not lend itself too well to individual sequential movement based on ‘initiative’ or ‘morale’. If movement has to be sequential it should commence with the leeward ships and proceed windward, this would avoid those logjams that result from a quality ship in the middle of the line having to move first and colliding with its next ahead.

In the most successful navy of the period, the RN, boarding was generally left until the guns had done their business first. By way of example, the party that initially boarded Santissima Trinidad (130 guns and a crew of over 1000) at Trafalgar was perhaps a dozen sailors led by a junior officer. They were politely told that the ship had not struck and were allowed to return to their boat unharmed!

As for ships firing while grappled, Trafalgar historian John Terraine wrote about the crew of Redoubtable (74) clearing Victory’s (100) upper decks with small arms and grenades while the latter systematically destroyed their ship under their feet with her middle and lower deck guns.

Also one would think that the carnage inflicted by grape makes sense given that the quarterdeck pieces of a 3rd Rate could probably direct effective fire into the waste of a 1st Rate and could definitely sweep the lower rigging and boarding nets where the storming parties tended to concentrate.

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RE: AI and Grappling - 3/24/2009 4:53:07 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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Just to re-iterate I have NOT seen this issue of grappling paralyzing the AI.  I have on frequent occasions grappled from the side and been brutally drug over the coals with broadsides from the grappled ship.  There might be something else going on with particular settings and such in games.

(in reply to Randomizer)
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