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AI has an incredible amount of units. - 3/22/2009 2:47:47 AM

Maciste

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Joined: 3/5/2004
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Hi, people.

I'm an old fan of Steel Panthers, though it's been a long time since the last time I posted here.

I uninstalled the game a long time ago, and I've reinstalled it yesterday (I feel nostalgic, you know... besides, I'd like to have some good old-fashioned fun without "sandboxed-real time-3d graphics").

Well, the trouble I find now (and I was sure I didn't suffered before) is that, when I play wwII campaign with, say, germans, I face what seems an unending enemy army. It doesn't matter how many I kill, they just keep pouring in. So, to know what was happening, the next battle I fought, I surrendered in the first turn (my shame, I know), and then I chose to "View map".

�THE MAP WAS COVERED WITH RED DOTS IN THE ENEMY FIELD! �The AI had DOZENS AND DOZENS OF UNITS that littered the whole front, creating an impassable barrier all the way up'n'down the map.

Please, �could someone explain me why is this or, at least, how to overcome it?

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 3/22/2009 4:53:53 PM

FlashfyreSP

Posts: 1193
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Check your Pref settings to see what the number is in the Battle Points area. If the AI side has anything but XXX, the AI will be buying as many units as it can to use those points.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 3/22/2009 9:49:12 PM

planner 3

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Maciste: You may even want to update your game version to 8.403 and/or Enhanced version. Lots of new goodies in there and it's all free.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 3/23/2009 1:54:01 PM

Poopyhead

Posts: 612
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Yeah I�ve played lots of battles where the AI had a dozen infantry companies and over 100 tanks. It�s kind of daunting. Be patient, make a plan and persevere. Here is what I do to overcome the �impassable barrier�:
Do a terrain analysis of the enemy position. I always attack on a narrow front of about 4-5 hexes. Try and pick the least likely place to attack. Set up the artillery to lay down a barrage from one end of the entire enemy line to the other. You want to suppress his troops, not destroy them. A unit that has taken fire will move at half speed for several turns, which for leg infantry is practically nothing. Mass your heavy artillery at the point where you will breach. Artillery of 100+ mm can expose mines, thus showing you where the engineers must go to work. Lay smoke at this point to cover your advance from flanking fire, as well as to the front. Slowly move recon forward. If the smoke and shrapnel was effective, you shouldn�t take fire. Now you want to move the entire engineer company forward to the minefield. Use transport from the reserve and follow on companies to aid in this. Stack about a platoon of engineers in each hex so that they can clear about one hex worth of mines in one turn. Use the scouts from the reserve company to create a diversion. Have them pop up along the front of the enemy position away from the breach to keep them guessing and draw artillery fire away from the engineers.
Once the engineers are through the minefield, have one company assault. Time a barrage by mortars to land on the hexes opposite the breach at the end of the enemy�s turn to a depth of several hexes. This way the infantry will still be suppressed. Inch the recon patrols forward. You should be able to find the enemy without taking a lot of losses. Move the engineers up and flame them. Move deliberately. Recon patrols move one hex at a time until they can go no further. Then infantry move mounted up to their position followed by ATG�s. Move the panzers up to the rear of this position where they can repulse any counterattack.
After you are through the entrenchments, I have the breaching company dig in and secure the breach. The next company exploits through and goes deep followed by the third company closer to the breach. These two then turn and attack across the enemy�s exposed flank in unison, with the reserve company in support. Use smoke to cover your route of advance and use a rolling artillery barrage to support the attack. You can take more risks with the recon now. Once they have finished dismounted movement, load them in scout vehicles and continue to move them one hex at a time, dismounting to sight as needed. The recon patrols create a safe zone within which your mobile forces can move. Then just bulldozer your way to the objectives.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 3/23/2009 7:09:57 PM

Goblin

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Maciste,

Make sure 'AI Advantage' is turned OFF in preferences. IIRC, it gives the AI extra units in battle (on top of the points it spends), which can unbalance smaller battles easily.

Goblin

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 3/25/2009 8:54:27 PM

Maciste

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Thank you all for your answers. What baffles me is that I already had OFF the "AI Advantage", and the "Battle Points" were set at "XXX" (whatever it means, for the AI and for me). Oh, and I'm playing the 8.403 version.
PoopyHead: thank for your strategy lesson. Thank God I didn't met you on a PBEM battle! :D

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Post #: 6

RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 3/25/2009 10:16:02 PM

Goblin

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Was it a meeting engagement?

XXX for the computer means it will purchase based on your points. If you set yours at 1500, and the computer is at XXX, it will purchase off of your 1500 points (if you spent them all). During a meeting engagement, this will give it 1500 points, slightly more for an advance, and even more for an assault against you, but it will base these calculations off of 1500.

Yours set at XXX will give you random points to spend.

Goblin

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 6/29/2009 10:51:53 PM

Larry Holt

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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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Maciste, I'm guessing you are playing the WWII generated campaign? I've seen your situation a lot, one reason is because generation of that campaign creates small map sizes and thus the density of units is a LOT. I've stopped playing the WWII campaign and now just manually set one up using the campaign generator - it gives decent map sizes and unit densities. Sometimes it is packed and sometimes there is a lot of open space to maneuver (the "empty battlefield" situation of real life).

Larry Holt

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/17/2009 2:08:19 AM

VictorInThePacific

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quote:

when I play wwII campaign with, say, germans, I face what seems an unending enemy army.

Actually, I came over here with the same sort of issue.

The first few scenarios of the German campaign are OK, but somewhere after El Alamein, You're still running around with Mark 3s, probably an 88 section and a StuG platoon, and then you get swarmed by Shermans and airpower.

Where have we seen this before?

Ever read "The Rommel papers"?

Good luck. Offer a separate peace.

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Post #: 9

RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/30/2009 1:02:08 AM

KG Erwin

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I've tried a few starts in the long campaign version as the Germans, but even playing a defend/delay battle, my battalion seems to be attacked by the entire Polish Army. It's unfortunate that the default play balance is so fubared. Same goes for my beloved Marines vs the Japanese. The unending horde again shows its ugly face.

For that reason, I've stopped playing the game.

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Post #: 10

RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/30/2009 2:06:38 PM

Alby

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

I've tried a few starts in the long campaign version as the Germans, but even playing a defend/delay battle, my battalion seems to be attacked by the entire Polish Army. It's unfortunate that the default play balance is so fubared. Same goes for my beloved Marines vs the Japanese. The unending horde again shows its ugly face.

For that reason, I've stopped playing the game.

simply manually set the points, no reason to stop playing the game...

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Post #: 11

RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/30/2009 3:45:30 PM

vahauser

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Look at it this way. The computer cannot have more than 400 units. I've analyzed these battles and the computer rarely buys more than 360. I always play with AI Advantage On and Hard Battle (x2), so I'm used to fighting outnumbered by the computer.

Here is the way to beat the computer:
When defending, the computer is very predicatable in how it advances across the map. Outmaneuver the computer with your defending units and you can win.
When advancing, the computer deploys its units in predictable patterns. Know how to advance against those patterns and you can win.

If you want me to demonstrate how to do this, let me know.

Perhaps I can start that campaign AAR I was talking about before I had surgery. I'm out of the hospital now and doing okay. Let me know if you are interested in watching me play the Belgians against the Japanese in a campaign using a version of the 'Tough Troops' (I don't like to call it "Low-Carnage" because I still manage to destroy pretty much everything, it just takes more work) settings. Let me know.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/31/2009 1:09:57 AM

VictorInThePacific

Posts: 169
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Here is the way to beat the computer:

...

If you want me to demonstrate ... , let me know.

Perhaps I can start that campaign AAR I was talking about before I had surgery. I'm out of the hospital now and doing okay. Let me know if you are interested in watching me play the Belgians against the Japanese in a campaign using a version of the 'Tough Troops' ... Let me know.

Belgians

beating Japanese

? Could be interesting.

Let's see. You put in the effort. You write the story. We relax on the couch and watch. Seems like a good deal to me.

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Post #: 13

RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/31/2009 1:35:02 AM

vahauser

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VictorInThePacific,

Once you can predict what the computer is going to do, then defeating the computer becomes more an exercise of simply maintaining your focus and not getting impatient or complacent.

Japanese units are tough to eliminate because they have to be killed to the last man. But they rout and retreat just like other units. The formula for defeating the computer is pretty much the same in every battle:
Step 1) channel the computer into creating huge stacks of 10+ units
Step 2) bombard those huge stacks with artillery to suppress/rout them
Step 3) have your ground troops clean up the mess

Accomplishing Step 1 takes practice and experience, but I can do it in every game because I know how.
Even 81mm mortars are sufficient to accomplish Step 2. In fact, the only time I use anything bigger (and I never use anything larger than 105s) is when I need a few artillery that have longer range or are more accurate.
Step 3 is where you need to stay focused and don't get impatient or complacent.

No rocket science is needed to defeat the computer. All it takes is focus and patience and practice and experience.

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Post #: 14

RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/31/2009 1:37:38 AM

vahauser

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Alby,

Erwin plays by his own set of house rules. I'm not surprised that he gets overrun time after time because of the house rules he uses.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/31/2009 2:06:22 AM

JEB Davis

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One can always bypass the originally posted problem by playing designed scenarios & campaigns instead of the random junk.
Seems almost everyone agrees that the game is at it's worst in the random generation realm.

Or better yet, play vs another person online or by email.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/31/2009 2:51:07 PM

Alby

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You know, in the Dutch oob (Netherlands) are the KNIL forces(ENH, not vanilla) who actually fought against the japanese in the Dutch East Indies, you could use those instead of the Belgians..

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 7/31/2009 4:39:07 PM

vahauser

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Alby,

Nah. The Belgians are more interesting. Besides, the Dutch only fought a battle or two, not a whole campaign. Either the Dutch or the Belgians is a fantasy campaign. Also, the Belgians start weaker (55 in January 1942 compared to the Dutch start as 65 in January 1942). I'm still not sure if I'm even going to do this silly campaign, but if I do it will be as the Belgians.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 8/1/2009 1:11:30 AM

FlashfyreSP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Alby,

Nah. The Belgians are more interesting. Besides, the Dutch only fought a battle or two, not a whole campaign. Either the Dutch or the Belgians is a fantasy campaign. Also, the Belgians start weaker (55 in January 1942 compared to the Dutch start as 65 in January 1942). I'm still not sure if I'm even going to do this silly campaign, but if I do it will be as the Belgians.

Of course. Because why let history get in the way...

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 8/1/2009 10:15:58 AM

Noypi53

Posts: 227
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific

quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Here is the way to beat the computer:

...

If you want me to demonstrate ... , let me know.

Perhaps I can start that campaign AAR I was talking about before I had surgery. I'm out of the hospital now and doing okay. Let me know if you are interested in watching me play the Belgians against the Japanese in a campaign using a version of the 'Tough Troops' ... Let me know.

Belgians beating Japanese ? Could be interesting.

Let's see. You put in the effort. You write the story. We relax on the couch and watch. Seems like a good deal to me.

Yes, please do the AAR. I've come back to SP after many years & getting tired of all these 3-D games. Never really got the hang of SP originally. Willing to give it another go. Vahauser's AAR would help.

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Post #: 20

RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 8/1/2009 3:38:14 PM

vahauser

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Alby,

Nah. The Belgians are more interesting. Besides, the Dutch only fought a battle or two, not a whole campaign. Either the Dutch or the Belgians is a fantasy campaign. Also, the Belgians start weaker (55 in January 1942 compared to the Dutch start as 65 in January 1942). I'm still not sure if I'm even going to do this silly campaign, but if I do it will be as the Belgians.

Of course. Because why let history get in the way...

Do you even know what started this whole nonsense? You did (at least indirectly).

Riun T played a Pacific campaign as the Canadians (actually, it was a combination of Canadians and Indians and heaven knows what else tossed in) using the Flashfyre template as a campaign guideline. Yes, that's right. The Flashfyre template that you inspired. You.

Anyway, Riun T has been bugging me for months and months to play a campaign like the one he played. He basically told me that I was a sissy and that I could pick any nation I wanted in any campaign format I wanted. So, I chose one of the weakest nations (the Belgians) to go up against the Japanese. Why the Belgians? Because the Belgians are weaker than the "historical" Indians. The Belgians are weaker than the "historical" ANZAC. The Belgians are weaker than just about everybody. It's harder to play the Belgians against the Japanese because they are weak. That is why I picked the Belgians. The Belgians are weak and it's harder to play them against the Japanese. Got it? Climb down off of your "historical" soapbox. It's unbecoming.

People have expressed an interest in seeing me play this silly fantasy campaign (don't you think I realize that it's not "historical"?). They want to see me take a weak nation like the Belgians up against a tough enemy like the Japanese using AI Advantage ON and Hard Battle (x2). They couldn't care less about "historical". They want to see the challenge, and they want to see if I can show them anything useful about how to play this game. "Historical" has nothing to do with it. That's why this thread is in the Training Center sub-forum and not in the "Historical" Gaming sub-forum. Oh, there isn't an "Historical" Gaming sub-forum? Maybe you should go and start one somewhere.

EDIT: I was in a bad mood this morning when I wrote the above. I didn't intend to be harsh. It would have been gentler to say, "Yes, Flashfyre, I know it is a fantasy campaign, but there are reasons why I'm choosing it.", and left it at that. I don't want to start a flame war.

< Message edited by vahauser -- 8/1/2009 9:45:03 PM >

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 8/2/2009 3:35:43 PM

FlashfyreSP

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My comment was in response to you not taking the Dutch, who, while having a higher base Experience and Skill rating, at least are hampered by only having native Dutch weapons, not British or German, which the Belgians in the 1942 OOB do. Belgians in 1942 are assumed to be re-equipped with British kit and are fighting as part of the British forces in North Africa, not as independent Belgian forces. Thus, they have British small arms, British armour, British guns, British planes. Or, if you choose the SS Wallonie units, you have all German weapons.

I am fully aware that you wish to play a 'fantasy' campaign...this is just info so others are aware of what you will be playing with.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 8/3/2009 2:52:45 AM

vahauser

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

My comment was in response to you not taking the Dutch, who, while having a higher base Experience and Skill rating, at least are hampered by only having native Dutch weapons, not British or German, which the Belgians in the 1942 OOB do. Belgians in 1942 are assumed to be re-equipped with British kit and are fighting as part of the British forces in North Africa, not as independent Belgian forces. Thus, they have British small arms, British armour, British guns, British planes. Or, if you choose the SS Wallonie units, you have all German weapons.

I am fully aware that you wish to play a 'fantasy' campaign...this is just info so others are aware of what you will be playing with.

Yes. You are correct about the Dutch equipment. However, one of the reasons I didn't select the Chinese was because they couldn't field an effective combined-arms force. Same with the Dutch. One of the purposes of this campaign is to use it as a training tool for people who want to see how certain tactics are performed. I can't do that with the Dutch or the Chinese. The Belgians are pretty much the weakest nation I can use to put together a combined-arms force for demonstration purposes. But yes, you are correct about the Dutch.

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RE: AI has an incredible amount of units. - 8/3/2009 7:53:48 PM

vahauser

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Okay. I started an AAR thread back in May (before I had to go to the hospital) called "A Low-Carnage Long Campaign (Group LaCroix)". I'm going to re-activate that AAR thread.

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