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More questions - 3/24/2009 1:50:33 PM

henri51

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Joined: 1/16/2009
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Here are a few things I still don't understand, mostly about advanced economy.

1) The main screen shows for each province the 3 best items to produce. Are those the 3 POTENTIALLY higher producers or the items that are mostly being produced now? If it is the former, why is it that sometimes the item that is the highest on the detailed province screen is not on the list? I understand tabout ties, but if there is only one highest available item, it should be among the 3 best items, should it not?

2) The manual says that most items (except for a few exceptions) have a default production capacity value of 10%, which I think means that if I set any item, say timber, at 10% in any province, it will produce 10% if I set it at zero, it will produce 5%, and if I set it at 20%, it will produce 15%. Does this imply that for optimum production, I should first set all sliders at 10%, then following the COG guide, set the province sliders with items that I need at maximum for that item, then set what is left for labor and maybe food and textiles? In other words, is it a bad idea to set everything to zero initially, then to increase only the items I need to max at provinces that produce those items? Or is the optimum strategy something else than these two possibilities?

3) Early on as France I set all advisers to automatic except detailed battles to get a feeling for the game. The strategy AI then started to send out the French navy to fight the British navy every move until all that was left of the French navy was a few rowboats. Any idiot (even me) should know that the French navy is no match for the British, and a after a few resounding defeats would learn to keep the French fleets at home, hoping that maybe eventually the Spanish, Americans or aliens from outer space might whittle down the British fleets.Is the strategy adviser brain dead? Are there other advisers that one shouldn't use unless one prefers to lose?

4) And given the above paragraph and British domination of the seas, can France do ANYTHING at all with their fleets? If so, some detailed guide on what to do with the French fleets, merchants and privateers would be helpful.

5) How does one combine small fleets into bigger fleets? Since there are no navy corps, I am unable to find out how to do this. Is it impossible? If so, how did they get that way in the first place?

Henri

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 2:02:14 PM

henri51

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oh, yes, the difficulty levels:

6) When I begin, there are 3 ways I can make my game easier (or more difficult, which is not required at the moment). I can choose a scenario with easier (or more difficult) economy, choose an easier difficulty setting, or change the power settings for each country, as well as the starting glory. What do the difficulty levels do? And what do the power levels do? Do they give more production, fewer penalties, more soldiers, more morale, more money, easier combat, more production, or do nothing but give the player the impression that the game will be easier and so he will make fewer mistakes? Do the power levels make only combat easier but leave the econoomy alone? Or what?

Henri

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 2:48:15 PM

Hard Sarge

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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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1) The main screen shows for each province the 3 best items to produce. Are those the 3 POTENTIALLY higher producers or the items that are mostly being produced now? If it is the former, why is it that sometimes the item that is the highest on the detailed province screen is not on the list? I understand tabout ties, but if there is only one highest available item, it should be among the 3 best items, should it not?

I am not sure here, but I think the answer is that a province may be best at building this or that, but has 3 items it can build more of, if all production was used for that item

so say, xeeland, is best at making spice, but will all the production added to spice, you will get 6 spice (which wouldn't be shabby) but you could get 7 Iron, or 7 Textiles or 24 food, so each are higher then the 6 spice, so those are what is listed

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 3:16:48 PM

morganbj

Posts: 3634
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From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
2) The manual says that most items (except for a few exceptions) have a default production capacity value of 10%, which I think means that if I set any item, say timber, at 10% in any province, it will produce 10% if I set it at zero, it will produce 5%, and if I set it at 20%, it will produce 15%. Does this imply that for optimum production, I should first set all sliders at 10%, then following the COG guide, set the province sliders with items that I need at maximum for that item, then set what is left for labor and maybe food and textiles? In other words, is it a bad idea to set everything to zero initially, then to increase only the items I need to max at provinces that produce those items? Or is the optimum strategy something else than these two possibilities?

Your "zero them out" strategy is the best start.

Try this:

1. Set all sliders to 0 (in a province).

2. Advance the first goods slider to the maximum (75%). Note the production you get. Then reset it to 0 before you go on to the next slider.

3. Do this for all goods sliders.

4. You now know your best potential production of any single resource for that province.

5. I've found that it's best to allocate all labor to two or three (rarely four) sliders that provide the best return. Typically the one that gives me the most at 75% will see an allocation of 50% or more. The next two best producers will get 10 to 25%. The trick is to realize that sometimes you need to produce something that is a pretty low return because you need it at a national level and none of your other provinces are very good at producing it, either. The base figures (10%, etc.) are just indicators of where the most efficient production occurrs. After that amount allocated, you'll see decreasing returns as you increase. Keep in mind that the term "best return" is relative to the good being produced. While you may get 45 food at 75% and only 12 spice at the same level, the 12 spice may be the best return, if that is what you need most.

6. Go to the next province.

I have an economic quide coming out soon that will help a little with your questions. The best thing, though, is just to play around with the sliders and see what they do, keeping an eye on what you're running out of and what you think you need to stockpile for future use.

It will also explain how the calculations work. Your example is not exactly correct.

My advice is this: The advanced economy seems more onerous and complicated than it really is. Once I figure out how to set the sliders in the first turn, I then only go back every six months to a year and spend any time at all with them. SOmetimes, I'll go for several years before I take a look at them. So, don't let the economy detract from your enjoyment of the game. Give it your best short early on, and then adjust as you need.

(in reply to henri51)

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 3:19:10 PM

Alex Gilbert

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From: New York City
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Henri-

My thoughts on a couple of these:

2) If you want to make the most "stuff" and do not care what that stuff is, then set the sliders as you were talking about-- 10% for most, 30% for agriculture as I remember. Playing as France, I found that this gave me more timber and iron than I needed and less wool, cotton, and textile than I wanted, so I have found it valuable to trade 2 or 3 iron or timber production for 1 wool or cotton. But I imagine this depends on style of play and country.

4) Do not be too intimidated using the French fleets, but I would never let the computer resolve the battle. put together a fleet of 20-25 3rd rates (or add in 1st rates) and look for a British fleet that is alone (taking on 2 British fleets at once is to be avoided). Choose a far start and take the time to get your fleet in line ahead formation and shorten sail (one thing about the computer, I rarely if ever see it shorten sail, and this makes it pretty vulnerable). Let them come to you, raking their bow as much as possible. Pick on a couple of the lead ships and keep your ships together for mutual support. As they close to point blank, switch to grape shot. As enemy ships take damage, right click on a few-- look for the crew morale-- I try to grapple and board anything with a morale of about 2. Watch the enemy WTF as you do them damage- they tend to run at a WTF of 8-14. Once they get to that range, try and grapple everything in sight (whether you think you can board it or not). When they retreat, anything that you have grappled, you capture (although 50-75% gets turned to timber). Works very well against the British. Against the Russians or Swedes, you have the morale advantage as well.

5) As far as I know, you can not combine fleets, but 2 fleets that are in the same sea area will both join a combat, so I have seen combats of 50 ships facing 60 ships or so.

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 3:28:18 PM

Anthropoid

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In my experience, Bjmorgan has it exactly right. All else being equal, some provinces are just intrinsically better at producing certain things, and these are what are listed as "best resources." Strasbourg set to 50% iron will crank out something like +6 iron per turn. Most other provinces in contrast will only crank about +1 or maybe +2 at 50% and may have to be turned up to 75% to achieve +2 or +3. The same is true of all the resources, with the exception of labor and luxuries which never seem to be the "special" for any province. However, because labor and luxuries are both improved by factories, provinces that are good sources of textiles (also benefit from factories) or iron (also from factories) where you will likely build most of your factories will also be good sources of luxuries and labor. I have a suspicion that economic production is somehow also tied to better production of finished goods, whereas lower gold producers will tend to be better for raw goods, but that is more just an untested idea.

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 3:32:01 PM

morganbj

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From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
4) And given the above paragraph and British domination of the seas, can France do ANYTHING at all with their fleets? If so, some detailed guide on what to do with the French fleets, merchants and privateers would be helpful.

Well, in the 1805 scenario, you're kinda stuck as France. Unless you are VERY lucky and get Denmark as a protectorate very early, you'll find that the Brits will just shut you down on the ocean. In one game out of ten, you may do pretty well, and now that there's a tactical combat option for fleet engagements, you might get good enough to actually beat the Brits now and then in a few battles. But, they can build better ships than you, a little faster, and probably cheaper. So, it seems like a losing proposition to me.

I have often tried to keep my fleets back and develop them by spending experience points on upgrades and special abilities, hoping to one day give the Brits "what fer," but it never seems to work out that way. I somethimes do some damage, but never take control of the seas enough for my merchants to be safe. So honestly, what do I do? I send my brave sailors out the first two or three turns on suicide missions, hoping to eliminate them entirely to save money, while taking out a few enemies with me. The Brits usually spend considerable resources to rebuild. I won't. I can win the game every time without navies, so why not adopt that strategy? It's gamey, but I do it.

I know that's not what you want to hear, you were hoping for some grandiose strategy that has a 50% chance of working. Well, there isn't one as France in 1805. I'm sure some will disagree. I'd like to hear their ideas.

As a matter of fact, I don't think France has a great ability to use her navy much at all regardless of the scenario, but that's just my opinion. I know others will disagree and they may actually have strategies that can pay off a little, but, when you look at what you have to spend to keep competitive on the ocean, when you can use that effort on land where you can really raise havoc, why bother with the navy?

My motto is "sink it and save" when I play France.

< Message edited by bjmorgan -- 3/24/2009 3:34:54 PM >

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 4:37:59 PM

Alex Gilbert

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I agree with the "sink it and save" motto. I started out with the idea that if I lost the French fleet it just meant I paid less in upkeep, but I have found that the French are not so inferior. I think starting naval morale is 8 for Britain, 7 for France, 6 for Sweeden, and 4 for Russia. I have not fought Spain or the Danes.

There are also handling differences where the French are more likely to have inertial movement, but I find this more annoying than crippling.

The Brits have numerical superiority, but they also have more to protect so they are usually spread out. I tend to hide in port when I see 2 or 3 fleets close together, but a single British fleet you can pound. I definitely would not spend money building ships, but if the Brits are just going to leave their ships lying around after the battle, I don't mind finding crews to man them...

My experience I think suggests that French naval morale is a little high. Perhaps it should be 5 or 6 instead of 7.

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 6:33:44 PM

Anthropoid

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So far, playing France in 1792 scenario, and using my ability in the tactical battles to the utmost (and on normal/normal no handicap) I have managed to beat the Russian Black Sea Fleet quite soundly. Gained one or two 3rd Raters there. Beat different Spanish Fleets during 3 to 5 different large battles. I had one where I used I think 7 of my ships to eek out a win against 22 of the Spainish ships. They were already badly damaged from a previous engagement during that same turn, and my guys were high morale, and virtually unscathed, but this combined with clever use of tactics I beat them definitively and only had one ship that went into disorder. I've gained two or three 1st raters and three or four 3rd raters from Spain. I was gearing up to do battle with Britain but they were forced by insurrectionist to surrender. One of the keys: do not preemptively cut back on sail and speed, use columns of vessels with full sail at high speed to cross the T, while a second column moves around behind to then cross the T perpendicular to the first column. As things degerate into a melee, keep pounding on the worst of enemies until they strike colors, and pretty soon you'll set off a chain reaction and the whole enemy fleet will crumble and flee.

I'm taking damaged ships out of active fleets and sending them to port in "Bouvet's Invalides" fleet. I also have one very strong fleet with a disproportionate number of 1st raters (7 or 8 IIRC) "1st Fleet Cornic's." Treville's fleet I've reorged as nothing but a squadron of Frigates, and then the other one I renamed 2nd fleet and it might have one or maybe two 1st raters in it. A fleet with 4 or five admiral promoted 1st raters, and with 20 or 30 3rd raters which all have extra guns promotion is bound to give the Limey's a bad time, we'll see when the time comes

Maybe the difference here is that I'm playing on Normal difficulty.

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 8:02:12 PM

morganbj

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I have also had some luck in the 1792 scenario against the Russkies in the Black Sea, capturing several ships that come in very handy. The British, though, are just flat hard to beat unless you can really spend a lot of money and time building a fleet. That comes at a severe sacrifice at land troops with the new "inflation" rules. If you get very good at the HW naval battles you can give the Brits a good game no matter what the scenario is, but against a decent human opponent when all you have is QC, you're usually toast every time, unless you're very, very lucky.

Once the modder's guide comes out, maybe somebody could put together a scenario that assumes the French had developed a better fleet in the earlier years. It would be nice to actually have a good chance to invade England successfully now and then. I HAVE been able to invade England before, just not that stinkin' often, and only when I've had protectorate ships (usually the Danes), a lot of captuers, or effective allies (the Spanish can help every once in awhile, but I've actually had the Russkies on my side, too). Other beta testers seem to have had more luck, but I know that in at least one case the guy is VERY good in HW against the AI and beats the tar out of all comers at sea.

Don't get me wrong. If trying the naval strategy is your thing, do it. You can have a lot of fun with it. It just seems that the odds are stacked against you when fighting the Brits and I prefer to thrash my enemies on land and win the game that way. Oh, I always play at 23 years and 10,000 glory in the 1792 and 1805 scenarios. That gives me the most time to turn the continent blue. It's hard to do that winning at sea alone. I just think that some players are better off sending the swabies on their way and letting the grenadiers win all the glory.

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 8:35:41 PM

Alex Gilbert

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Oh, I agree that if you are using QC, then France has little/no chance. But using detailed combat, I think that the AI is pretty beatable even as Britain. I think it is interesting that Anthropoid and I take essentially opposite tactics (he is going for high speed/mobility, I go for a compact but slow moving fleet) and both do well. I would definitely love to see a larger sea area for combat-- my tactics would not work nearly so well, if there were more sea room for the enemy to it just the head or the tail of my line. As it is, a fleet of 25+ ships basically covers the entire field from end to end.

After beating up on GB in an earlier game, I had captured about 20 of their SOLs. I was tired though, and when one last battle with 28 (fresh, morale 7.3 or so) French SOLs and 24 British SOLs came up, I made the mistake of letting the computer deal with it in QC. Wound up with only 8 ships left in that French fleet (ouch). Lesson learned...

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RE: More questions - 3/24/2009 8:46:56 PM

ShaiHulud

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BJMorgan's method for micro-managing the advanced economy is dead on. When you start a game, invest the time it takes to maximize the individual provinces best outputs for that country, before you make any moves with units, and then SAVE GAME. Then you can always re-start with your best production already punched in.

The French navy is actually very good compared to most. The Brits, of course, shine, but France has both the numbers and quality to best all the others, individually. So, save the fleet, don't waste it. The 'Fleet-in-Being' strategy will require even the Brits to maintain their own.

For instance, in my present game I have my 3 original French fleets, the small Veneto fleet, captured in Carniola, and 2 small Spanish fleets, captured in Catalonia. The Brits are, presently, blockading one of the 10-ship, former Spanish fleets in Malta, but they're using a full strength Brit fleet to do it! Meanwhile, my two full-strength fleets in the Channel are blockading Kent and Anglia, chopping his trade by a lot and, apparently, intimidating the rest of the Brit fleets around England.

So, while I have to pull in my various Med fleets while the big Brit fleet is roaming, he cannot be everywhere. Thus, I still have two merchants plying trade in the Med. I can still put out a fleet to blockade a port I want to seige. And, when the Brits are away, I rule the Med against Turkey and Russia easily.

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RE: More questions - 3/28/2009 7:00:59 PM

Anthropoid

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From: Secret Underground Lair
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Thread bump to bring it back up for a recent question by a newcomer that is pretty much addressed here

quote:

I am a beginner in this very nice game. I am trying to understand the economy a bit better. I think provinces differ in their production even if all the developments and number of men and labor allocations are the same.

Is this true ?

Let us know if you have any other questions Timurlain!

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 3/28/2009 7:02:14 PM >

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RE: More questions - 3/28/2009 9:07:54 PM

glozier

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri512) The manual says that most items (except for a few exceptions) have a default production capacity value of 10%, which I think means that if I set any item, say timber, at 10% in any province, it will produce 10% if I set it at zero, it will produce 5%, and if I set it at 20%, it will produce 15%. Does this imply that for optimum production, I should first set all sliders at 10%, then following the COG guide, set the province sliders with items that I need at maximum for that item, then set what is left for labor and maybe food and textiles? In other words, is it a bad idea to set everything to zero initially, then to increase only the items I need to max at provinces that produce those items? Or is the optimum strategy something else than these two possibilities?

This is what I believe the manual says. However, I've noticed that when you set a slider to zero it will produce 0% not 5%. This makes sense to me. So, it appears you get a 'normal' increase moving the slider from zero to 10%. Above 10% you get a half the 'normal' increase.

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RE: More questions - 3/30/2009 4:58:53 PM

ericbabe

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The behavior you describe is 10% for most resources, but the cutoff is 20% for labor and 30% for food.

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RE: More questions - 3/30/2009 10:49:01 PM

jjdenver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan
Your "zero them out" strategy is the best start.

2. Advance the first goods slider to the maximum (75%). Note the production you get. Then reset it to 0 before you go on to the next slider.

5. I've found that it's best to allocate all labor to two or three (rarely four) sliders that provide the best return. Typically the one that gives me the most at 75% will see an allocation of 50% or more. The next two best producers will get 10 to 25%. The trick is to realize that sometimes you need to produce something that is a pretty low return because you need it at a national level and none of your other provinces are very good at producing it, either. The base figures (10%, etc.) are just indicators of where the most efficient production occurrs. After that amount allocated, you'll see decreasing returns as you increase. Keep in mind that the term "best return" is relative to the good being produced. While you may get 45 food at 75% and only 12 spice at the same level, the 12 spice may be the best return, if that is what you need most.

I have an economic quide coming out soon that will help a little with your questions.

It will also explain how the calculations work. Your example is not exactly correct.

In (2) above when you say "Note the production" - do you mean note the actual integer value for that commodity increasing? Because in a lot of provinces the value doesn't budge - stays at zero.

So for example let's say 1796 scenario, Aleksandrovsk province for Russia.

Note that each slider appears to have 15 "units" on it. It appears that moving 5 units reduces labor from 100 to 95 so I think that the max you could allocate to any area would be 15 units x 5 = 75 labor out of the 100 available in a province....so 75%.

I zero all sliders. Now to the right I see +4 money, +1 labor, +0 everything else. I now move the slider for Wood to 15 units (75%). Absolutely nothing changes to the right. The green bars don't change, the integer values for wood don't change. No effect whatsoever.

I zero out wood and try iron. Same thing happens - no effect when iron is at 15 units.

Next I try textiles. Here I get something. With textiles slider at 15 units I get +3 wool, +2 textiles, and the bright green part of wool and textiles bar graph on right goes up some. I have no clue why wool moved when I moved up textiles. I also have no clue how +3 wool = +2 textiles when the manual seems to clearly say that it takes 4 wool to equal 1 textile. Confusing! Another confusing thing hapens when I set textile at +15 units on the left. The bright green part of the bar graph for money and labor on the right moves down (shrinks) but the integer values remain at +4 money and +1 labor - no change. What is happening here? When I moved the sliders for Wood and Iron they didn't have this effect on money and labor bar graph at right.

Now I try agriculture at +15 units on the left. On the right labor and money bar graph shrinks but the integer value again doesn't change (just as in the last paragraph). Food goes to +3 and the bar graph for food gets some bright green in it. This makes more sense to me I guess than what happened with textiles but I still don't understand how money and labor wasn't impacted in terms of integer value changing when bar graph changed so drastically.

Now I try luxuries at +15 units on left. No effect on right whatsoever.

Other questions come to mind. I'm unsure how my alexandrovsk province can produce +1 labor when I have 0 units allocated to labor.

One of the most important questions is: If I set the slider for iron to +15 units (75%) - will it contribute some fraction of an integer value to the overall iron production? For example might my province produce .33 units of iron and after 3 turns at this setting it will have added a total of 1 iron to the national stockpile? Or will I have produced a total of 0 iron making the +15 units of labor allocated to iron production in Alexandrovsk completely and utterly useless even if I leave it at the setting for 10 years? Is the labor slider only used to produce integer values?

Another important question is - can I tell that Alexandrovsk is naturally suited to farm and textile production because those are the only slider moves on the left that seem to have an integer impact on the right?

---------------

You also wrote:
"I have an economic quide coming out soon that will help a little with your questions.

It will also explain how the calculations work. Your example is not exactly correct."

zomg this would be awesome - when is it coming out?

Thanks!

(in reply to morganbj)

Post #: 16

RE: More questions - 3/31/2009 1:49:47 AM

Anthropoid

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Note, I have skimmed the manual, just for things that I did searches for. I was not a beta-tester but I was a pretty active FoF forum member. Thus, some of what I'm thinking is the case may be inaccurate. In any event, here is my intuition/what I have figured out through fiddling with it.

quote:

I zero all sliders. Now to the right I see +4 money, +1 labor, +0 everything else. I now move the slider for Wood to 15 units (75%). Absolutely nothing changes to the right. The green bars don't change, the integer values for wood don't change. No effect whatsoever.

I zero out wood and try iron. Same thing happens - no effect when iron is at 15 units.

Alexandrovsk is poorly suited to produce timber or iron. It intrinsically produces +4 money, and +1 labor.

I'm betting if you put your wood or iron slider considerably higher, you'll get +1. If it is really poorly suited to produce those commodities +1 might be the max for either one, even if you have the slider set all the way to 99% or whatever the max is.

Having played no one but France, that level of inefficiency is novel to me, but I guess it is not surprising. For most French provinces you can get at least +2 on Wood and Iron if you crank the slider way high. But why waste putting so much of the effort in a province that is crappy for producing Iron when (for example) in Strasbourg, you can produce +12 iron at about 66% allocation for the province? This is the main conceptual point that you may not be getting: every province in the game is evidently coded behind the scenes to have intrinsically different efficiency for producing different commodoties, which makes perfect sense from a real historical perspective. Strasbourg has for centuries (evidently, I only knew about that area with respect to WWII, when it was considered a major prize for industry and iron). Other provinces were good for producing wine, and because upping effort to agriculture influences production of wine (as well as horses, and food) cranking up agricultural effort in such provinces will reap disproportionately more wine from them.

quote:

Next I try textiles. Here I get something. With textiles slider at 15 units I get +3 wool, +2 textiles, and the bright green part of wool and textiles bar graph on right goes up some. I have no clue why wool moved when I moved up textiles.

Wool and Cotton production are contolled by the Textiles slider. Provinces that have at least +1 under the local 'production' in Textiles will during any given turn try to draw 4 raw materials (either cotton or wool) from the national pool to produce one Textile commodity. It will only produce the number of Textiles for which there are effort allocated and also for which there are raw materials to work with. Interestingly here, if you build factories in a province it will increase its productivity of textiles (but not wool eor cotton) but if you build farms it will increase its productivity of the agricultural products, including cotton and wool. Thus, if you have your textiles sliders cumulatively set to produce +11 textiles, but you are not cumulatively through trade and production netting +44 cotton+wools per turn, you are going to be gradually reducing your store of cottons and wools until you start to suffer a short fall and your actual textiles per turn production drops to match the increment of raw materials you have divided by four. Thus, you have to balance your growth of farms in provinces where wool or cotton are good commodities (provinces where those raw materials are produced at intrinsically faster rates for any given set level of allocation on the slider) with your growth of factories in provinces with good textile production. No point in building too many factories if you do not have enough raw materials! Although factories also increase iron, luxuries, and labor output, so they can also be good to build in provinces that are good at producing these commodities.

quote:

Now I try agriculture at +15 units on the left. On the right labor and money bar graph shrinks but the integer value again doesn't change (just as in the last paragraph). Food goes to +3 and the bar graph for food gets some bright green in it. This makes more sense to me I guess than what happened with textiles but I still don't understand how money and labor wasn't impacted in terms of integer value changing when bar graph changed so drastically.

Labor seems to be difficult to increase much. Figure out provinces where (while you have everything zeroed) allocating effort to labor gives you +2 (15%), +3 (25%) maybe even +4 (50%) labor, but ideally where iron, and textiles are not listed as good 'natural' commodities. Build factories in those good labor provinces, and then after another level or two of factories there, and then you should get something more like +4 (15%), +6 (25%) and +8 (50%). In some cases, going to 60, 70, 80, or 90% will not produce increasingly more labor (or other resources too), but in others it WILL produce more and more. Strasbourg for example seems to produce more iron all the way up to about 95% allocation to iron.

Other provinces max out at in how much they actually produce at about 50% or so. Again, this is historically realistic. Some provinces would have had intrinsic limits on their ability to produce particular commodities, or rather some commodities may have had intrinsic limits in general.

quote:

Now I try luxuries at +15 units on left. No effect on right whatsoever.

Alexandrovsk is not intrinsically good at producing luxuries. Simple as that. It might be that even at 90% or 100% you'll still get +0 luxuries otu of Alexandrovsk. Again, realistic: some provinces would have been very backward and rural, and best suited for production of raw agricultural commodities like horses, food, or wine. Others might have been equally as pastoral, but for various reasons better at producing wool than horses or food. Some provinces are good for timber, others for iron, etc., etc.

quote:

Other questions come to mind. I'm unsure how my alexandrovsk province can produce +1 labor when I have 0 units allocated to labor.

It is intrinsic. It seems like most of the labor that can go into the national pool at game start is just intrinsic, i.e., you can zero out ALL your provinces labor allocation sliders and still be producing the same national level of labor as if you had some set to allocate some labor.

quote:

One of the most important questions is: If I set the slider for iron to +15 units (75%) - will it contribute some fraction of an integer value to the overall iron production? For example might my province produce .33 units of iron and after 3 turns at this setting it will have added a total of 1 iron to the national stockpile? Or will I have produced a total of 0 iron making the +15 units of labor allocated to iron production in Alexandrovsk completely and utterly useless even if I leave it at the setting for 10 years? Is the labor slider only used to produce integer values?

My guess is: if you do not see a change in the province production value, e.g., moving the slider changes a commodity output for that province from +1 to +2, then any intermediate allocation above a particular level of production is wasted allocation. What I do is find the exact levels where I get that one additional point of output and set them there. Later on, after I build some kinda infrastructure there that might amplify productivity, maybe I'll have to reset it, but for long stretches you can go without changing the sliders.

quote:

Another important question is - can I tell that Alexandrovsk is naturally suited to farm and textile production because those are the only slider moves on the left that seem to have an integer impact on the right?

In short, yes: that is how I figured it out!

_____________________________

(in reply to jjdenver)

Post #: 17

RE: More questions - 3/31/2009 1:55:40 PM

morganbj

Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

In (2) above when you say "Note the production" - do you mean note the actual integer value for that commodity increasing? Because in a lot of provinces the value doesn't budge - stays at zero.

So for example let's say 1796 scenario, Aleksandrovsk province for Russia.

Note that each slider appears to have 15 "units" on it. It appears that moving 5 units reduces labor from 100 to 95 so I think that the max you could allocate to any area would be 15 units x 5 = 75 labor out of the 100 available in a province....so 75%.

I zero all sliders. Now to the right I see +4 money, +1 labor, +0 everything else. I now move the slider for Wood to 15 units (75%). Absolutely nothing changes to the right. The green bars don't change, the integer values for wood don't change. No effect whatsoever.

I zero out wood and try iron. Same thing happens - no effect when iron is at 15 units.

Next I try textiles. Here I get something. With textiles slider at 15 units I get +3 wool, +2 textiles, and the bright green part of wool and textiles bar graph on right goes up some. I have no clue why wool moved when I moved up textiles. I also have no clue how +3 wool = +2 textiles when the manual seems to clearly say that it takes 4 wool to equal 1 textile. Confusing! Another confusing thing hapens when I set textile at +15 units on the left. The bright green part of the bar graph for money and labor on the right moves down (shrinks) but the integer values remain at +4 money and +1 labor - no change. What is happening here? When I moved the sliders for Wood and Iron they didn't have this effect on money and labor bar graph at right.

Now I try agriculture at +15 units on the left. On the right labor and money bar graph shrinks but the integer value again doesn't change (just as in the last paragraph). Food goes to +3 and the bar graph for food gets some bright green in it. This makes more sense to me I guess than what happened with textiles but I still don't understand how money and labor wasn't impacted in terms of integer value changing when bar graph changed so drastically.

Now I try luxuries at +15 units on left. No effect on right whatsoever.

Other questions come to mind. I'm unsure how my alexandrovsk province can produce +1 labor when I have 0 units allocated to labor.

One of the most important questions is: If I set the slider for iron to +15 units (75%) - will it contribute some fraction of an integer value to the overall iron production? For example might my province produce .33 units of iron and after 3 turns at this setting it will have added a total of 1 iron to the national stockpile? Or will I have produced a total of 0 iron making the +15 units of labor allocated to iron production in Alexandrovsk completely and utterly useless even if I leave it at the setting for 10 years? Is the labor slider only used to produce integer values?

Another important question is - can I tell that Alexandrovsk is naturally suited to farm and textile production because those are the only slider moves on the left that seem to have an integer impact on the right?

---------------

You also wrote:
"I have an economic quide coming out soon that will help a little with your questions.

It will also explain how the calculations work. Your example is not exactly correct."

zomg this would be awesome - when is it coming out?

Thanks!

All provinces have one or more goods that they are good at producing. The development popup for each province lists them in the bottom left. BUT, that screen doesn't tell you HOW good it is, or, if it lists two, which is better. My technique does that.

First of all, every province produces some money and 1 point of labor, even if you do nothing.

You will find that some provinces produce nothing in a particular good, no matter where you set its slider. That obviously means that putting the slider at any level for that good is folly.

But, what if you find that at 75% you get 8 Wool and 12 Textiles,
and at 75% you get 2 Horses, 18 Food, and 3 Wine,
and at 75% you get 5 Spice and 5 Luxuries.

You now have a decision to make based on your overall NATIONAL needs. Are your people getting enough food? Maybe you should split your allocation 50/50 between the textile and luxury sliders.

Are you needing a lot of everything? Maybe a 34/33/33 split is best.

The point is, what it you find that luxuries only produce 1 Spiceand 1 Luxury at 75%? In that case, why not just set all the slider points to textiles and agriculture and find spices and luxurines somewhere else?

Another point, if you see 0 of something, the game is NOT accruing some fractional part turn to turn. Every turn the production variables are reset to zero. So, if there is 1/2 of something produced what happens? Well, that means there's a 50/50 chance you'll actually get 1 of that thing. (And 50% chance you'll get 0, too.) If the fractional amount is 1/4, then there's a one in four chance you'll get 1 of that thing. It's actually done using decimals and probability "die rolls," but you get the idea.

Ignore the green bars above the good to be produced. They are not helpful at all. Just look at the integer values for the goods.

Also, sliders can affect more than one good, look at the Appendex for the manual. The Luxury slider affects, for example, the production of Spice and Luxuries.

And, yes, you're right, the production of Textiles from Cotton and Wool is very confusing. I just look at the relative amount of production and don't worry about when or how it actually shows up. If after five or six months I'm not accruing any Textiles , I go back in and jack up a slider ot two until I do.

It seems very complicated, but believe me it's not. It takes a few games to get the hang of it. My advice is that you spend a lot of time the first turn setting the sliders to get as good an initial allocation as you can. You should have written down what each province is good at. (When the Economic Guide comes out, I'll actually have all that for you.) Then, only make changes when you see that you're running short of something, or when you decide that you really need that extra diplomat and have to get more textiles.

I think the worst thing people do is to spend hours each turn tweaking this slider a few points this way, then that way, trying to squeeze every single point of something out, when the reality is that you NEVER get what you think you're going to get anyway. There are too many variables that impact you. (Unrest, weather, enemy action, etc.) What I do is set them all very carefully, and then check back every couple of years as developments are completed to see if I am now better changing the allocations. It works for me, and I'll bet it will work for you, too.

Oh, and one other thing, sometimes the best strategy is trade for a few things that you are short of. Let somebody else propose the trade if you can, so you don't have to pay too much for it. I learned that the hard way. I once proposed all kinds of trade and then found that my cash went to 0 in a hurry as those Scotland to Vyazma trade routes are very expensive.

Finally, if you get frustrated with all this, just play the simple economy and enjoy the game. The advanced economy CAN be a pain until you're comfortable with it, and it DOES take some extra time to get it down. But, the game is great either way. I've played it hundreds of times and still love it.

I hope all this helps.

Oh, I had to wait for the release version of COG:EE to be produced before I could finish the Modder's Guide, and that had to be done before I could complete the Advanced Economic Guide. Be patient. It's about 90% done. A few weeks at most, I'd guess.

(in reply to jjdenver)

Post #: 18

RE: More questions - 4/4/2009 8:52:09 PM

glozier

Posts: 25
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan
Another point, if you see 0 of something, the game is NOT accruing some fractional part turn to turn. Every turn the production variables are reset to zero. So, if there is 1/2 of something produced what happens? Well, that means there's a 50/50 chance you'll actually get 1 of that thing. (And 50% chance you'll get 0, too.) If the fractional amount is 1/4, then there's a one in four chance you'll get 1 of that thing. It's actually done using decimals and probability "die rolls," but you get the idea.

If this is true, then you don't have to worry about setting production to perfection. Fractional production is worth something so you don't have to worry about hitting the 'sweet spot' with the slider to get a integer value with the lowest slider setting.

How do you know that this is true?

Does this work for a production value of 1.5? Would such a value produce 1 half the time and 2 the rest?

(in reply to morganbj)

Post #: 19

RE: More questions - 4/5/2009 12:43:33 AM

barbarossa2

Posts: 915
Joined: 1/17/2006
Status: offline

I would love to see a detailed response to the original post's question number 5...

"5) How does one combine small fleets into bigger fleets? Since there are no navy corps, I am unable to find out how to do this. Is it impossible? If so, how did they get that way in the first place?"

< Message edited by barbarossa2 -- 4/5/2009 12:44:00 AM >

(in reply to glozier)

Post #: 20

RE: More questions - 4/5/2009 5:13:01 AM

morganbj

Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: glozier

quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan
Another point, if you see 0 of something, the game is NOT accruing some fractional part turn to turn. Every turn the production variables are reset to zero. So, if there is 1/2 of something produced what happens? Well, that means there's a 50/50 chance you'll actually get 1 of that thing. (And 50% chance you'll get 0, too.) If the fractional amount is 1/4, then there's a one in four chance you'll get 1 of that thing. It's actually done using decimals and probability "die rolls," but you get the idea.

If this is true, then you don't have to worry about setting production to perfection. Fractional production is worth something so you don't have to worry about hitting the 'sweet spot' with the slider to get a integer value with the lowest slider setting.

How do you know that this is true?

Does this work for a production value of 1.5? Would such a value produce 1 half the time and 2 the rest?

I've seen the code. And, yes to the question.

< Message edited by bjmorgan -- 4/5/2009 5:14:07 AM >

(in reply to glozier)

Post #: 21

RE: More questions - 4/5/2009 11:46:03 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

To combine fleets, simply detach ships from one fleet and attach them to the other fleet.

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(in reply to morganbj)

Post #: 22

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