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RE: War in the East... - 12/16/2008 4:31:03 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline 		OK, a number of questions here...

First, if there is free movement, what's to prevent a player from attacking with a couple of units and if they don't succeed, just move them out of the way and attack with some other units.

This was a major problem with Norm Koger's 'Age of Rifles'. If your attack got thrown back just attack with other units. I tried the Gettysburg scenario and the computer ended up attacking not once, not twice, but three times along these lines... and it came off as being really silly compared to games like SSI's Gettysburg: Turning Point.

The whole thing with free movement, plotted movement (like in War in Russia) or 'attacks cause loss of movement points' (like in TOAW) is crucial to a game and the idea that combat units' attack ability is diminished the more MP they use, is interesting and may prove effective.

But, there are lots of aspects to this whole thing.

Z

< Message edited by Zaratoughda -- 12/16/2008 5:16:27 AM >

(in reply to DavidFaust)
Post #: 31
RE: War in the East... - 12/16/2008 4:45:18 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline 		Next question (or comment, whatever).....

10 miles per hex and weekly turns???

Hmmmm.... War in Russia was 20 miles per hex and weekly turns, so you would think that with 10 miles per hex you would have two turns per week.

Also, Western Front, was corps/division level (not sure the scale) and, 4 day turns.

Most of the scenarios in TOAW that have scales along these lines have half week (or less) turns.

I recently sent an EMail to Rob Kunz, who did the series of scenarios, I believe there were like 8 of them, for TOAW, on the progress of Army Group Center. Here the unit size was division/regiment and 10 KM/hex (6.2 miles/hex) and.... daily (!) turns. I asked him if he had interest in doing the same series of scenarios for the new 2x3 eastern front game and he said he sure would but.... thinking about it now I am not sure these scenarios could be done with weekly turns.

Someone posted in this thread that they would like a game that didn't take forever and I have the same feelings but, would prefer two turns per week and smaller scenarios for those of us that want the shorter games and, the campaign game at two turns per week for those that want a longer game (but, sheesh, even two turns per week is WAY faster than the daily turns of WitP).

Anyways, you got my opinon on this one.

Z

< Message edited by Zaratoughda -- 12/16/2008 5:21:56 AM >

(in reply to DavidFaust)
Post #: 32
RE: War in the East... - 12/16/2008 5:16:00 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline 		One other thing.... I am just curious.... division/BRIGADE??

Hmmm.... most games/scenarios that I have seen at this level, for the Germans, have the infantry in divisions and the exceptional units (panzer and some motorized) in regiments with the divisional level batalions in the divisional HQ unit.

So, where do BRIGADES come in here?

Sounds like you are attaching the divisional level batalions to the regiments and calling them brigades. <g>

Of course, for the Russians it is always a challange because their divisions were a lot smaller. Can usually get by with Russians at one level higher (e.g. corps instead of divisions) but some go with Russian divisions (at this level) and... then there are a LOT of them.

Z

< Message edited by Zaratoughda -- 12/16/2008 5:22:59 AM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 33
RE: War in the East... - 12/16/2008 7:16:36 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		At a second thought I'm unsure about weekly turns also. This should work well for the great campaign but makes it harder to depicture smaller scenarios. Barbarossa was not the slowly attrition warfare we know from pacific theate but predominantly a series of decisive battles. That being said, you can hardly use same scale for Leningrad siege and Wintergewitter.

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 34
RE: War in the East... - 12/16/2008 10:18:12 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline 		For a game that does not take that long.... there should be a Barbarosa scenario that ends when the whether first turns bad. I did such a scenario for WiR in the last year and it was a 15 turn scenario..... if you went with half week turns it would be a 30 turn scenario and still that is not that bad.

In any case, such a scenario would be good for playtest, as it could be played many times and if there is any play unbalance it could be weeded out.

Z

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 35
RE: War in the East... - 12/16/2008 4:28:26 PM   
benpark

 

Posts: 3884
Joined: 8/12/2002
Status: offline 		A week does seem too large a block of time, but I figured that it was developmentally fixed by now. Maybe not- so I'll add my voice to the list of wanting smaller blocks of time per turn.

I hope that the game is geared toward the equivalent crowd as WiP was- die hard wargamers that don't mind a lot of units, detail and time spent with the game. If the game is going to be more of a light wargame, I'll be greatly disappointed as this is the area of my greatest interest historically. Don't be afraid to create the be all, end all, Alpha and Omega of Eastern Front wargames.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 36
RE: War in the East... - 12/16/2008 8:56:53 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		Well, honestly I like the scale of WIR and PW more than that of WitP.

With the latter you just have not few meaningless boring turns, nevertheless with a clickfeast. Because: It's so detailed, and you better manage everything on your own instead of delegating to your PC. Sometimes I quit before the first turn, just because I am tired of moving all the subs out manually. And yes: I know about AE.

I played all three extensively. But even now more WIR and PW than WitP. For me the former, after nearly 15 years, just got exactly the right space, time and unit scale.

I only wish these two classical games could be remade with

-global scale
-politics, research and enhanced production
-better interface, with player determined rules of engagement and command by HQ's


Regards

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 37
RE: War in the East... - 12/17/2008 4:58:28 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline 		Yeah, really, can't see why they let these games (WiR and PW) just die.

Maybe.... what they should do, is a new version of World at War.... this time integrating the hex map and corps level WiR, Western Front, and PW as well, all into a new monster game... covering all of WW2 at the corps/army level and weekly turns.

Hmmmm.... lol.... this one would be interesting for sure but at best this would be something after the new east front game is completed.

Z

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 38
RE: War in the East... - 12/17/2008 5:59:10 AM   
benpark

 

Posts: 3884
Joined: 8/12/2002
Status: offline 		You can get that scale (corps and army) with lots of games that are out there. Hubert Carter's Strategic Command is one, there are others. A game that simulates only the Soviet-German conflict is where my interest lies. The more detailed, the better. If some find the detail of this scale and subject boring, you must have never played "Drang Nach Osten" in a garage for months on end (and enjoyed the heck out of it).

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 39
RE: War in the East... - 12/17/2008 6:34:36 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Even in WIR each turn was made of impulses, so you can plan some in turn reaction. Probably the same goes with new WIE, just with more "impulses" per turn.

Although I got used to one day turns in WITP, it seems that longer control periods are more realistic for the front commander - you need to plan better, but game flow is faster and less forgiving..

_____________________________

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WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 40
RE: War in the East... - 12/17/2008 9:14:03 AM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		I never was interested in World at War or Strategic Command. Whereas WitP (one day turns, the need to manage every ship and sub unit and an overburdened AI which, since the days of PW, tends to get its Kido Butai always sunk north of New Guinea in the Grand Campaign) is too detailed for me, the former ones just aren't detailed enough.

Like I wrote before: WIR and PW just got the right amount of detail for me. I love the fact that units are made up of number of inf squads, Arty, AT, that the tank bns of a Div/corps can have different equipment. Playing around with equipment production is just fun.

In PW and WIR it's all based on quite realistic numbers. And it's still managable, entertaining and it doesen't take forever to be played out.

And there seems to be tendency in wargame development, at least for WW2, to make either grand strategy games with relatively few details (like SC or WaW) or to stay tactical/operationally (like CM, COTA, TOAW, or, arguably WITP)

This I can't understand. Because both WIR and PW must have been financially successful. They seem to be real classics, even now with not all dormant forums here at Matrix.

Regards

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 41
RE: War in the East... - 12/18/2008 12:22:59 AM   
DavidFaust

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Even in WIR each turn was made of impulses, so you can plan some in turn reaction. Probably the same goes with new WIE, just with more "impulses" per turn.

Although I got used to one day turns in WITP, it seems that longer control periods are more realistic for the front commander - you need to plan better, but game flow is faster and less forgiving..


WiR and WiF are 2 different games, your topic is about WiF but the topic talked about here is about the WiR remake

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 42
RE: War in the East... - 12/18/2008 5:42:23 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kingtiger_501

quote:

Even in WIR each turn was made of impulses, so you can plan some in turn reaction. Probably the same goes with new WIE, just with more "impulses" per turn.

Although I got used to one day turns in WITP, it seems that longer control periods are more realistic for the front commander - you need to plan better, but game flow is faster and less forgiving..


WiR and WiF are 2 different games, your topic is about WiF but the topic talked about here is about the WiR remake


No, my topic is not about WIF..

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to DavidFaust)
Post #: 43
RE: War in the East... - 12/19/2008 7:39:49 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

I never was interested in World at War or Strategic Command. Whereas WitP (one day turns, the need to manage every ship and sub unit and an overburdened AI which, since the days of PW, tends to get its Kido Butai always sunk north of New Guinea in the Grand Campaign) is too detailed for me, the former ones just aren't detailed enough.

Like I wrote before: WIR and PW just got the right amount of detail for me. I love the fact that units are made up of number of inf squads, Arty, AT, that the tank bns of a Div/corps can have different equipment. Playing around with equipment production is just fun.

In PW and WIR it's all based on quite realistic numbers. And it's still managable, entertaining and it doesen't take forever to be played out.

And there seems to be tendency in wargame development, at least for WW2, to make either grand strategy games with relatively few details (like SC or WaW) or to stay tactical/operationally (like CM, COTA, TOAW, or, arguably WITP)

This I can't understand. Because both WIR and PW must have been financially successful. They seem to be real classics, even now with not all dormant forums here at Matrix.

Regards


Wholeheartedly agreed.

_____________________________


Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 44
RE: War in the East... - 12/19/2008 8:12:28 PM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline 		Speaking of war in the east, there was a game many many moons ago that ran a pseudo-realtime campaign..Dont remember the game but it seemed interesting....Only got to early beta or even late alpha before it died.. Heard it was way too ambitious for those days...It needs to be done now as computers have advanced way past a good ole 486 with 8 ram which I think was someones test machine.

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 45
RE: War in the East... - 12/19/2008 8:24:02 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		You're talking about 'Road to Moscow' ?

(in reply to Phatguy)
Post #: 46
RE: War in the East... - 12/19/2008 9:22:28 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Looks like COTA to me....

http://pc.ign.com/objects/011/011163.html


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History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 47
RE: War in the East... - 12/19/2008 9:36:16 PM   
Missouri Rebel

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		I was sure interested in this when it was circulating. I wonder if these specs could have been the problem with the development;

Minimum Requirements

* Win 95/98
P120Mhz
32 MB RAM
4x CD-ROM


Seems a huge task considering the hardware at the time. BTW, what sweet looking maps.

mo reb

_____________________________

We must act... against the Sioux, even to the extermination of men, WOMEN and CHILDREN.The more Indians we can kill this year, the less will have to be killed next year. They all have to be killed or be maintained as a species of paupers.- w.t. SHErMAN

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 48
RE: War in the East... - 12/19/2008 9:54:48 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		No idea, but there were almost similiar requirements for BoB/BtR (P133, 32 MB RAM) and those game had to manage a truckload of units as well.

Having that said, I still remember how sluggish they ran on my P2 400.

(in reply to Missouri Rebel)
Post #: 49
RE: War in the East... - 12/19/2008 10:20:10 PM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline 		Yeah, RtoM was it..it looked wonderful..COTA is like a mini RtoM..wish it could be done now.....

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 50
RE: War in the East... - 12/21/2008 10:10:49 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		I really think this would be a winner if it could be accomplished.

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Phatguy)
Post #: 51
RE: War in the East... - 12/28/2008 10:47:14 PM   
Josans


Posts: 1728
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Barcelona (Spain)
Status: offline 		Just to see how commanders, like WBTS, have a major role in this game it is an advance to any other computer games about East Front...

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 52
RE: War in the East... - 12/29/2008 3:26:13 AM   
hgilmer3


Posts: 530
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline 		I could easily finish a full campaign in WIR against AI in 2-3 days, if I played a lot.  I'd like to see something along the lines of playing a campaignagainst the AI that takes 2-3 weeks, if played a lot.  WITP, if you play a lot, still seems like it could easily take months, if you're doing it right.

And I agree about Mr. Grigsby.  I bought Pacwar and WiR when they came out and I played them a lot.  I even bought Pacwar twice - the first time when it came out and the 2nd time when it was in just one of those CD cases as a greatest hits cheap game that was several years old by that time.  Then I got the free version.  

(in reply to Josans)
Post #: 53
RE: War in the East... - 12/30/2008 5:07:57 AM   
knilli

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Joey Land
Status: offline 		Hi all!

After years of just passive reading it is time now to be a bit more active :)

As I am a bit older, I play "War in Russia" or "Second Front" now for quite a time (since release in the 90's). And I am looking forward to "War in the East". I read the information about the details in the upcoming game and have some Questions. That might be a bit into detail but because of personal reasons I am interested in it.
1. I read that only southern Finland will be included. I personally would like to have the Norwegian/Finish Front included, mainly because some of my Family had the "pleasure" to spent some time there (during the war). Will it be possible to cut the supply from Murmansk? Not like in WiR by conquering Leningrad and advancing further. I mean with airplanes. Like Strategic Bombing Missions? Therefore i would like to see it included to give the 3rd German Mountain Div the change to make the last 50 km's :)

2. Same with the south. Will it be possible to cut allied supply from Persia, if this is included.

3. How does the economical part of the game work - if included? Is it the same as in WiR? (like cities with factories for planes and tanks? and if so can i change to allied models and then back. example in WiR: to italian airplanes. So far I can change production to them but not back anymore) and do I have access to factories of the german allies?


And a general: Thank you very much for your games! I had a lot of fun over the years!

Knilli

(in reply to hgilmer3)
Post #: 54
RE: War in the East... - 12/30/2008 7:45:04 AM   
DavidFaust

 

Posts: 857
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

1. I read that only southern Finland will be included. I personally would like to have the Norwegian/Finish Front included, mainly because some of my Family had the "pleasure" to spent some time there (during the war). Will it be possible to cut the supply from Murmansk? Not like in WiR by conquering Leningrad and advancing further. I mean with airplanes. Like Strategic Bombing Missions? Therefore i would like to see it included to give the 3rd German Mountain Div the change to make the last 50 km's :)


I do not believe that Murmansk can be cut from supply by just using airpower.

quote:

2. Same with the south. Will it be possible to cut allied supply from Persia, if this is included.


I dont think this will be included

quote:

3. How does the economical part of the game work - if included? Is it the same as in WiR? (like cities with factories for planes and tanks? and if so can i change to allied models and then back. example in WiR: to italian airplanes. So far I can change production to them but not back anymore) and do I have access to factories of the german allies?


German allies have factories but as this game is in very early alpha the economical part of the game has not been decided on.

< Message edited by kingtiger_501 -- 12/30/2008 7:46:02 AM >

(in reply to knilli)
Post #: 55
RE: War in the East... - 12/31/2008 9:26:15 AM   
knilli

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Joey Land
Status: offline 		thx for your answers!

still...i would love to see the upper part of finnland included. as i said....the last 50 km

@persia...bummer ;)

@economy: thx! something to look forward to hear in the future.

(in reply to DavidFaust)
Post #: 56
RE: War in the East... - 3/30/2009 2:24:56 AM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		The following table for Soviet arms production is extracted from "Thunder in the East" by Evan Mawdsley (2005). Mawdsley was able to gain access Soviet war archives recently made public

.............................Entered Service......Entered Service
...........................6/22/41-12/31/41..........1942

AT................................2500....................20500
AA................................3400....................6800
Artillery.................... ...10100..................30100
Katyushas.....................1000....................3300
Heavy Tanks.................1000....................2600
Medium Tanks...............2200....................13400
Light Tanks...................2400....................11900
Fighters........................6000....................10700
Attack Aircraft ..............1400....................7200
Bombers.......................2500....................4100

These numbers include Soviet production and lend-lease. They appear to be for the most part higher than the War in Russia Soviet production numbers. For example, assuming that "medium tanks" are primarily T-34, the number entering service in 1942 averages 515/per week. This is much higher than the game provides.
Will War in the East reflect higher Soviet armaments production than War in Russia?

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 57
RE: War in the East... - 3/30/2009 2:44:03 AM   
Yank


Posts: 175
Joined: 5/19/2004
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline 		It would be great if Matrix could start up a forum for the new Grigsby East Front game. A product page with a few screenshots would be even better.

(in reply to Shupov)
Post #: 58
RE: War in the East... - 3/30/2009 3:04:57 AM   
Missouri Rebel

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		I am hungry for ANY news on this title. I have such high expectations. I just hope that one can designate targets for EVERY combat and not like WITP where taskforces cannot be directed. I want total control.

mo reb


_____________________________

We must act... against the Sioux, even to the extermination of men, WOMEN and CHILDREN.The more Indians we can kill this year, the less will have to be killed next year. They all have to be killed or be maintained as a species of paupers.- w.t. SHErMAN

(in reply to Yank)
Post #: 59
RE: War in the East... - 3/30/2009 3:30:59 AM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yank

It would be great if Matrix could start up a forum for the new Grigsby East Front game. A product page with a few screenshots would be even better.


When it is much closer to being finished I am sure they will create one.

_____________________________

Flipper

(in reply to Yank)
Post #: 60
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