Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals?

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Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/27/2009 10:41:28 PM

Jonah

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Who do you think were his greatest and worst Marshals? What other Napoleonic Generals should be ranked up there? That is what this thread is about.

Personally, I thought Napoleon's best were 1. Davout, 2. Suchet, 3. Massena, 4. Lannes, 5. Soult.

Of other Napoleonic Generals I thought so of the best were Mayer from Austria, Junot from France and Bulow from Prussia.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/28/2009 3:10:30 AM

IronWarrior

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonah
Personally, I thought Napoleon's best were 1. Davout, ...

Definately agree with you there... can't think of a more tactically brilliant officer throughout all of history.

I would add to that list Michel Ney. A friend of mine gave me some interesting info concerning his execution, I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

Oops almost forgot another name I would add... Joachim Murat.

< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 3/28/2009 3:41:44 AM >

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/28/2009 4:12:37 AM

ptan54

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Agree with Davout, not Ney. He failed to do his job at Bautzen, which was to cut off the escape route of the Prussian-Russian army. Had he marched quickly instead of dithering around, Bautzen could've been a second Jena-Auerstadt. Then of course we also have Waterloo, but I always contend that even victory there could not save Napoleon.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/28/2009 4:26:47 AM

IronWarrior

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re: Ney... well I've always believed that hindsight is 20/20. You can argue about his results, but as Napoleon said... he was 'le Brave des Braves' ("the bravest of the brave"). That certainly cannot be underestimated imo. He was one of his best imo, and one of my favorites to read about. If I can dig up that info concerning his execution, it might put things into a different perspective. To underestimate Ney is to underestimate Napoleon's judgement really.

I will email my buddy about it, but this weekend he is taking part in a miniatures game where Keith Rocco will be present.... oh how I miss home... talk about being homesick!!! I am definately missing out this weekend!

I have noticed in many of these wargames, that Ney gets dissed. He should at least get an ability that gives troops under him an increase to morale on par with the Russians defending home if you ask me.

< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 3/28/2009 4:36:20 AM >

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/28/2009 5:10:35 AM

Jonah

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Ney in my opinion is a competent commander. And without a doubt his courege on the field would inspire any man. But that as his weakness: He thought a infantry charge well led with courege could break the enemy or he micro managed on the field. If Davout commanded the left-wing at Waterloo, Napoleon would have won the battle.

So out of the 26 Marshals, where do I rank Ney? I rank him at 12. He is a good soldier but not a great of all time.

Murat is the greatest cavelryman of all time but is not a good commander of all forces by the way.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/28/2009 5:20:08 AM

IronWarrior

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Well I suppose I will agree to disagree. You simply cannot dismiss a firey charismatic commander as insignificant because of misfortunes in the heat of battle. If I were to create an Army of all characters from history, I just could not be without Ney. I would rely on him to get my troops' dander up about as much, if not more than any other in history. I suppose as a wargamer, I admire Ney in that I like to be ultra-aggressive. Where his failures I can dismiss as misfortunes or bad luck.

As for Murat, I agree with wiki about him being one of Napoleon's best. His skills were quite rare, and was an immensely important part of Napoleon's success.

< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 3/28/2009 5:25:23 AM >

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/28/2009 5:28:28 AM

Jonah

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I suppose we will haveto agree to disagree as well. I personally like more tactical commanders where as you like the more colourful ones.

Commanders in history are like a fine meal: They begin with some factual talent, but the rest is up to taste.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/28/2009 5:38:29 AM

IronWarrior

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Well, I like both and find them both useful in history. I just believe that the revisionists don't give enough credit where it's due, and focus entirely on the luck of accomplishments even if short-sighted. Let's not forget that Ney saved Napoleon's ass at Eylau.

I just feel there is much value in the characteristics of a Marshal like Ney, even if I am in the minority. I guess in this day and age, chivalry, bravery, or honor mean squat compared to who "won" or "lost". I suppose in the end it depends how you define "best" in an officer/marshal. What traits are you looking to define, or are we talking about a win/loss ratio? If so, these statisics can surely be found. I suppose the real argument is whether fate made a good marshal or not.

< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 3/28/2009 6:11:47 AM >

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/30/2009 5:18:27 PM

Rondor

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I am also a fan of Davout. I think he was everything a Marshal needed to be, brave, a meticulous planner, motivational and his men oved him.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/30/2009 6:59:23 PM

ericbabe

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I'm going to go with an unusual pick and say that Marshal Berthier, Napoleon's Chief of Staff, was perhaps the single marshal most crucial to the success of the Napoleonic system of warfare. Certainly Berthier was no tactical genius, but Berthier's brilliance at organization seems, IMHO, to be what allowed Napoleon's carefully planned grand tactical maneuvers actually to work in the real world.

I came to this opinion when working on "Forge of Freedom", and read descriptions of battles in which CW commanders many times attempted to have their troops perform complicated Napoleonic-style maneuvers, only to find that their command staffs weren't equal to the task of putting these orders into effect on the battlefield. When Soult took over as chief of staff during the 100 Days, he neglected many of Berthier's meticulous protocols for delivering and recording orders, with the result that Vandamme's Corps which was leading the center column before Waterloo failed to receive an important marching order, and the advance of the entire central column came to a hault behind him, and it was only after an hour of delay did the problem even become known to Soult's HQ, and Napoleon himself had to intervene and personally issue new orders to get the army marching again. With Berthier's system of triplicate issuance of orders and order verification, it's inconceivable that one broken-leg could have caused so much confusion and loss of time.

So Berthier may not have been dashing, courageous, or tactical, but he was simply brilliant at organizing information. Maybe it's just because I'm a programmer, and so I'd like to think that the people who can best organize information are most likely to triumph on the battlefield.

_____________________________

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/30/2009 9:02:28 PM

Rondor

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Ericbabe: Excellent choice! In all I have read regarding the era Berthier is mentioned time and again for his ability to organize Napoleons's intricate systems, one's never before seen or executed prior. I didnt think of him as a "Marshal" but without him perhaps none of the Marshal's could have done as well as they did.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/2/2009 8:00:30 PM

Feralkoala

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In line with Ericbabe's recommendation of Berthier, I would say Ney was very good at his job so long as his chief of staff was excellent, as it was until Jomini defected. Ney was also excellent in leading rear guard actions, where tenacity was required, although Napoleon preferred Lannes for the Advance Guard, as that required intelligence and tenacity

As battlefield commanders, though, I'd have to go with Davout and Lannes (who kept improving and might have gotten the nod if he hadn't been killed at Aspern Essling). For independent command with a smaller force, Suchet worked wonders in Spain and defeated the Austrian advance guard in the 100 Days before Napoleon's second capitualation.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/3/2009 12:45:45 AM

sullafelix

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Davout should be everyone's #�1 hands down. After Waterloo when they approached Paris his threat of using his troops put the fear of god in them.

Back to Ney one of the reasons that his actions at Bautzen were so poor was because of Jomini. Apparently they were friendly early on and Ney introduced Jomini to Napoleon. But after they had a falling out. Jomini's insistence that Ney was missing the chance of a lifetime by cutting of the Allied retreat, supposedly made Ney dig in his heels and just follow his orders without appreciating the new circumstances. From what I've read Ney took it as a personal affront when napoleon made jomini his chief of staff in 1813.�

Murat was known as a horse killer in the Russian campaign and others. He was totally out of his depth in anything but a cavalry commander.Had he been at Waterloo he certainly would never have let Ney destroy the cavalry. His marriage to Napoleons sister probably had more to do with his stature in the grand army more than his abilities. Napoleon might have been better of with Kellerman.

I agree whole heartedly about Berthier.�I truly believe that even with Ney's mistakes if Berthier was chief of staff, at least the northern campaign would have ended differently.

Napoleon's choices for command in 1815 are always looked at from a military standpoint. You also have to add in the political climate. What generals and marshalls could he trust? There were even some defections of generals during the advance to Belguim.

The info about Ney's death was that he was not killed by firing squad but secreted away to the US where he became a school teacher, in Virginia I believe.I've never put any credence into the story.

< Message edited by sulla05 -- 4/3/2009 12:47:30 AM >

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/3/2009 8:03:07 PM

gdpsnake1979

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I would muddle up the mix by saying that leadership is a hard thing to quantify because many of the Marshals like Davout were superior division then corps leaders. Leaders like Ney were excellent at regiment or even corps level or with certain troops like cavalry but failed at higher echelons like Army command (Ney at Waterloo). Murat was brilliant as a cavalry commander but was hopeless with combined forces with infantry and artillery. It says much of Napoleon that he recognized the strengths of his commanders and put them in appropriate leadership positions. Unfortunately, that same insight failed after 1812 when Napoleon then counted percieved loyalty more important which is why Ney got command of an Army wing and Davout was left back in France marshalling/rebuilding troops. Sadly, Napoleon trusted Grouchy and some accounts I've read 'hint' that Grouchy was 'less than motivated' and may have 'ignored' moving toward the Army at Waterloo because of 'mixed loyalty.' Or maybe he just didn't want Davout's job and followed orders 'to the letter.' Either way, a poor choice.
The same problems are apparent in the American Civil War when Corps leaders were killed and lower ranked proven "Great" leaders were promoted to command and simply performed adequately or not at all with a larger force.
Having said all that, Marshals like Davout and Berthier had real understanding of the 'big picture' and performed brilliantly at all levels of command while Murat and Ney who were absolutely heroic and idolized, did not. Soult was mostly ineffective in the Pennisula War so I don't give him high marks as an army commander yet he was a good corps commander.
Davout was the best Napoloenic field commander hands down, I rate him better than Napoleon or any other country's leader's.
Someone not yet mentioned is Pontinowski, the commander of the French "Polish" Corps. He was quite talented.

So rating leadership is difficult and in game terms, how do you adjust the modifiers as rank goes up from 1 to 3 stars and maintain any semblance of historical performance - you can't. After all, The English squares might have broken up at Waterloo and Ney would be rated a genius for his charge - right?!

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/3/2009 9:03:49 PM

anarchyintheuk

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Davout easily, even if he was completely wasted during 1810-1811 and in the 1813, 1814 and 1815 campaigns. Had Lannes lived longer I think he'd have given Davout a run for his money.

Given his previous mistakes, I don't think Ney would have ever been rated a genius.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/6/2009 3:28:49 AM

ptan54

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Re: Ney. Personal bravery is important at a tactical level, but not the most important factor for a commander of an entire army or even a corps. He was a MARSHAL, not just a battalion commander. So what if you are brave but stupid? Moltke senior wasn't notable for any bravery but he was hands down the most brilliant strategic/operational genius the Prussians ever produced. Not flashy or impetuous but got the job done. Clarity of thought, keeping calm, and seeing the big picture are more important for a corps commander than personal bravery I think. Napoleon deserves blame for not giving orders precisely, another point that distinguishes him from Moltke who was very direct and clear about what to do. A good army commander would also understand combined arms, and not launch unsupported cavalry charges (see Ney at Waterloo. If he had infantry with him he could've destroyed Wellington's guns after the charge).

Re: Berthier. Agree that chief of staff is very important. I think it is fair to distinguish between backroom chiefs of staff and battlefield commanders. If we are talking about the latter then Davout, Lannes and Massena (in his earlier days) win hands down.

Re: Bautzen. I am reading David Chandler and he suggests that Jomini told Ney to move swiftly to cut off the allied retreat, but Ney decided foolishly to assault Blucher instead of moving to seal them off at Hochkirch.

< Message edited by ptan54 -- 4/6/2009 3:33:08 AM >

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/6/2009 4:07:32 AM

Russian Guard

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I find it hard to support any other Marshal than Davout for this honor, although there were other excellent Marshals of course. Davout was, in my opinion, superior to all other Commanders of any Nation, perhaps including Wellington.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/6/2009 5:20:58 PM

Rondor

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Personally, I feel Davout might have been a better tactical commander than Napoleon himself.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/6/2009 6:01:06 PM

sullafelix

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10-4 on Chandler, I think it comes from several sources about Ney refusing to use his head and just follow Napoleons original orders. Ney's other big dumb move was to insist that D'erlon turn around just when he was able to influence the battle of Ligny. Had D'erlon been left alone by Ney ( and follow Napoleon's plans ) he might have been able to turn a victory into a route and Napoleon would not have needed to worry about Blucher during Waterloo.

Some authors have credited Napoleon with jealousy of Davout which is why he used him less and less. I don't believe it fully because in the 1812 campaign Davout had command of the largest group by far.

I did just read a quote from Napoleon but I cannot remember what book it was from. Someone was praising Lannes and he as I remember it said " Don't kid yourself both Ney and Lannes would cut your belly open if they thought it would be to their advantage ". So he might not have been as close to Lannes as was previously thought.

One thing I did find out about Davout was that his personal hygiene was not good at all. Some marshals stayed away from him because of it.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/7/2009 6:22:05 AM

ptan54

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Sulla, what's the source re: Davout's hygiene? Interesting.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/7/2009 11:54:25 AM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rondor

Personally, I feel Davout might have been a better tactical commander than Napoleon himself.

To what extent did Napoleons meglomania cloud his tactical judgement at critical points?

Berthier is an interesting choice mentioned earlier. His staff work would have been critically important since Napoleon basically wanted the entire Grand Armee under his direct control. I hadnt ever really thought about that.

Two best still IMO are Davout and Lannes.

How about the two worst?

< Message edited by Mus -- 4/7/2009 11:56:30 AM >

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/7/2009 5:12:40 PM

Jonah

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The two worst? Bernadotte and Jourdon. They had very little talent and Joudon even called the 'anvil' by the english because they would win whenever they fought him.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 4/7/2009 5:36:48 PM

sullafelix

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I'll have to look it up. I wander through magazines and books about history voraciously, so I sometimes forget where I got what.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/12/2010 5:45:22 AM

Pistachio

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Ney - but I'm biased. There is a legend (and I stress legend, as it's somewhat far-fetched), which sulla05 refers to, that his execution was faked and he escaped, emigrated to my home state of North Carolina (not Virginia), moved to what was then the backwoods of Rowan County, and lived out his days as a country schoolmaster. Ah, you laugh, but there was in fact a teacher named Peter Ney in that area who appeared about the time Marshal Ney disappeared, was apparently French, and was about the right age. Peter Ney's grave is still there today. I don't say the legend is true or false, only that it was one of the first things to interest me in the Napoleonic period.

< Message edited by Pistachio -- 3/12/2010 5:48:35 AM >

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/15/2010 2:28:34 PM

bush

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An interesting tale, never heard that before and I lived in Durham for about 4 years.

However, that is what you are basing your choice on for which marshal was the best? Personally, I would place Ney in the middle to low-middle, overall. I believe most games/individuals tend to overhype the "Bravest of the Brave" moniker into regarding Ney as something he was not.

Personally I would go 1- Davout, 2- Lannes, 3- Suchet. Subjectively rating leaders is always difficult and often stormy because opinions are like a**holes - everybody's got one.

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RE: Who do you think were Napoleon's greatest Marshals? - 3/15/2010 7:14:07 PM

Pistachio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bushpsu
...I believe most games/individuals tend to overhype the "Bravest of the Brave" moniker into regarding Ney as something he was not....

I believe you are right and in fact I think the "Bravest of the Brave" is partly responsible for the legend. I should also say that I voted for him as "best" because I'm relatively new to history of the Napoleonic Wars and he's really the only one I know much about - but in hindsight that's a vote for "favorite" rather than "best" and thus not a very informed vote at all. So I invite everyone to please disregard it!

OT - hope you liked your stint in Durham!

(in reply to bush)

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