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Shipping Shortages - 3/31/2009 3:03:50 AM   
Blackhorse


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Shipping will be more of a scarce resource in AE than in stock.

Here's a reminder of how hard it was, even for the US, to find enough transports in the first years of the war. Taken from “We Can’t All Be Heroes”; a history of the separate infantry regiments in World War II.

“The 1st Battalion, 367th Infantry was alerted in March 1942 for duty in Liberia to defend the American Air Fields. The battalion was separated from the regiment and proceeded to the Charleston port in April. Due to a shipping shortage they were not transported to Marshall, Liberia until February 8th, 1943.”


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Post #: 1
RE: Shipping Shortages - 3/31/2009 7:11:44 AM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline 		The thing that I am curious to see is how the new industry affects the ability of Japan to play far more aggressive than reality. Was always fun to watch Japan in vanilla WitP have enough shipping to bring home unlimited resources AND conquer India AND conquer Australlia AND conquer New Zealand AND conquer Pearl Harbout all in 1942. Pretty funny stuff if you ask me.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 2
RE: Shipping Shortages - 3/31/2009 7:56:51 AM   
jrcar

 

Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Seymour, Australia
Status: offline 		My experiance so far is that Japan is constrained, BUT if you are prepared to accept risk (mainly due to delays in loading and unloading) the Japanes player can keep up a brisk pace (not as much as stock).

BUT

All it takes is one decent Allied attack... and you are in trouble.

Likewise as the Allies, there is constraint, but not a huge problem... but start loosing lots of APs and you are in trouble.

The biggest issu is loading and unloading, Ports (as mentioned a few times now!) are much more critical. Try unloading a div plus support assets at anything below size 4 and you will suffer delays... that will compond when you reload them.

This is the thing that will slow the Japanese advance, and the Allies later.

There is adquete shipping, until you start loosing it.

Cheers

Rob




(in reply to Chad Harrison)
Post #: 3
RE: Shipping Shortages - 3/31/2009 4:15:28 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Shipping Shortage

Having to move 60K-90K resources per day when playing Japan starting in 1941, not including oil, supplies, fuel, troops, etc. that's just resources, what do the numbers look like in 1943 or 1944? Will one bad month of shipping bring the enconomy to a halt?

Also having to move resources, oil, not just to Japan but, now also having to move them between the four Japanese main Islands, (seems like a bit much)!

If allied subs sink Japanese shipping like in witp (1941, early 1942) will the campaign go beyond 1942 before the Japanese enconomy crashes?

It was way to easy to sink allied shipping in witp including most of the AP's, this limited the allied AI. Does the AI do a better job of protect shipping and keep them away from enemy airbases?



(in reply to jrcar)
Post #: 4
RE: Shipping Shortages - 3/31/2009 8:01:22 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
Shipping Shortage

I hope to God, and for both sides.
quote:

If allied subs sink Japanese shipping like in witp (1941, early 1942) will the campaign go beyond 1942 before the Japanese enconomy crashes?

Don't really know; it shouldn't, but.. . There's some flexibility here, IJN can develop some ASW capability - at the expense of other stuff - but how it plays out depends on player perception, risk, and the inherent gaminess that people discover. The econ stuff is on top of the charts for us, so we will be watching results closely. If something is necessary, we have a good handle on the parameters, so we can do a patch, if necessary.

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Post #: 5
RE: Shipping Shortages - 3/31/2009 10:32:00 PM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
Shipping Shortage

I hope to God, and for both sides.
quote:

If allied subs sink Japanese shipping like in witp (1941, early 1942) will the campaign go beyond 1942 before the Japanese enconomy crashes?

Don't really know; it shouldn't, but.. . There's some flexibility here, IJN can develop some ASW capability - at the expense of other stuff - but how it plays out depends on player perception, risk, and the inherent gaminess that people discover. The econ stuff is on top of the charts for us, so we will be watching results closely. If something is necessary, we have a good handle on the parameters, so we can do a patch, if necessary.


A few things

1. I always thought US subs sank way too much in WITP (Dec 41 - May 42), bad torpedoes, lack of experience, and timid sub commanders plagued the USN early on.

2. Econ Stuf, One issue is you don't really know the cost/effect of increasing a factory until its done (too late). An undo button and/or something that shows the increased cost in Resources/Supply/HI/etc. of the change would go a long way in understanding of how things work and the effect in both short & long term costs.

3. When turning factories off the totals (Hi/Res/Sup/Fuel/etc. in WITP don't show the net effect (savings). I don't know is this was an effect of mods like CHS.





(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 6
RE: Shipping Shortages - 3/31/2009 11:35:26 PM   
n01487477


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quote:

2. Econ Stuf, One issue is you don't really know the cost/effect of increasing a factory until its done (too late). An undo button and/or something that shows the increased cost in Resources/Supply/HI/etc. of the change would go a long way in understanding of how things work and the effect in both short & long term costs.

3. When turning factories off the totals (Hi/Res/Sup/Fuel/etc. in WITP don't show the net effect (savings). I don't know is this was an effect of mods like CHS.


The UI in AE looks much better, but there is always going to be a shortage of available information that is why people use Tracker or decoder...

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 7
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/1/2009 5:15:18 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152


1. I always thought US subs sank way too much in WITP (Dec 41 - May 42), bad torpedoes, lack of experience, and timid sub commanders plagued the USN early on.



Turn on the Allied Sub Doctrine, when starting the game...


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(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 8
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/6/2009 10:34:45 AM   
FOW

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152


1. I always thought US subs sank way too much in WITP (Dec 41 - May 42), bad torpedoes, lack of experience, and timid sub commanders plagued the USN early on.



Turn on the Allied Sub Doctrine, when starting the game...



That also cripples the Brit and Dutch SSs which is wrong - should be the 'US Sub Doctrine' button.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 9
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/6/2009 7:28:44 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

1. I always thought US subs sank way too much in WITP (Dec 41 - May 42), bad torpedoes, lack of experience, and timid sub commanders plagued the USN early on.



US subs sank approximately 50 ships from 12/41-5/42. Off hand I don't remember many aars having higher losses than that.

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 10
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/6/2009 7:39:40 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		My US subs are currently getting one torpedo hit for every 3 or 4 attacks (in 3/42).  Dutch and British subs are getting a hit about 2/3 of the time, and I've got the Allied Sub Doctrine turned on (I presume that gives the US the faulty torpedoes).

Their biggest success so far was when a Dutch sub torpedoed and blew up the Ryujo off of Soerabaya, Java in 1/42. 

BTW, I sent a couple of the "O" class Dutch subs to Pearl Harbor and put them in a minelaying mission, and noticed they are carrying two types of mines; the US Mk 10 and the KH version the Dutch had.  Did the US fly in a supply of the Dutch mines or did the sub have a schematic on board and they just made them on the spot?

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 11
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/7/2009 7:05:24 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
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From: Dallas
Status: offline 		You get faulty torpedoes/historical performance regardless of the doctrine chosen.

As to the mines, does it make a practical difference which it loads with? I don't know off hand the difference between the stats of the US and Dutch mines.

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 12
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/7/2009 7:15:50 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk
As to the mines, does it make a practical difference which it loads with? I don't know off hand the difference between the stats of the US and Dutch mines.

Mines, in AE, just like WiTP-1, are loaded from the “pool”. If it’s in the pool, and you are at a place where you can load mines, you get to ring the bell.

We did some tricky things to alleviate this, but generally, weapons (devices) belong to side A or side B, there is no provision for Dutch owned, Indian owned, Brit owned, US owned, OZ owned, yadda yadda. If it’s in the lunch box, you get to eat.


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Post #: 13
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/7/2009 9:48:43 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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Status: offline 		Sounds good to me.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 14
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/7/2009 9:54:24 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Unless you make different versions by country.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 15
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/7/2009 11:01:14 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
Unless you make different versions by country.

We can do that. It'll take some time, but it's possible.. Please remit $10,000, payable to JWE. I'll make sure Don Bowen gets his cut - I promise.

Otherwise - deal with it.

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Post #: 16
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/7/2009 11:18:06 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
Unless you make different versions by country.

We can do that. It'll take some time, but it's possible.. Please remit $10,000, payable to JWE. I'll make sure Don Bowen gets his cut - I promise.

Otherwise - deal with it.


Not sure I trust that KJB member with that much money. You'd better include the #2 girl from Large Slow Target's avatar to hand deliver the funds to me.

Of course, both WITP and AE will only load the devices (weapons) assigned to a class. If a Dutch ship has Dutch mines, it will load Dutch mines...

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 17
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/8/2009 2:44:13 AM   
Dili

 

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quote:

We can do that. It'll take some time, but it's possible.. Please remit $10,000, payable to JWE. I'll make sure Don Bowen gets his cut - I promise.

Otherwise - deal with it.



(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 18
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/8/2009 11:56:26 AM   
John Lansford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Of course, both WITP and AE will only load the devices (weapons) assigned to a class. If a Dutch ship has Dutch mines, it will load Dutch mines...



Then how did my Dutch sub load both Mk 10 (US) and KH (Dutch) mines when I loaded it at Pearl Harbor? The Dutch subs have dedicated mine tubes IIRC, so perhaps since that's a 'weapon' like a torpedo tube or gun the computer just loaded the 'ammo' (the KH mines) in them, and then put Mk 10 mines in the torpedo tubes. Does that make sense?

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 19
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/8/2009 1:03:19 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Of course, both WITP and AE will only load the devices (weapons) assigned to a class. If a Dutch ship has Dutch mines, it will load Dutch mines...



Then how did my Dutch sub load both Mk 10 (US) and KH (Dutch) mines when I loaded it at Pearl Harbor? The Dutch subs have dedicated mine tubes IIRC, so perhaps since that's a 'weapon' like a torpedo tube or gun the computer just loaded the 'ammo' (the KH mines) in them, and then put Mk 10 mines in the torpedo tubes. Does that make sense?


That's exactly what happens. Mk 10 is the default mine for torpedo tubes and if sub is dedicated minelayer, it also loads mines it is set to load in editor.
For example, in stock O19 and O20 load VH2 mines and Mk10s. Argonaut will load Mk12 and Mk10 mines.


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Post #: 20
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/8/2009 2:02:27 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Of course, both WITP and AE will only load the devices (weapons) assigned to a class. If a Dutch ship has Dutch mines, it will load Dutch mines...



Then how did my Dutch sub load both Mk 10 (US) and KH (Dutch) mines when I loaded it at Pearl Harbor? The Dutch subs have dedicated mine tubes IIRC, so perhaps since that's a 'weapon' like a torpedo tube or gun the computer just loaded the 'ammo' (the KH mines) in them, and then put Mk 10 mines in the torpedo tubes. Does that make sense?


That's exactly what happens. Mk 10 is the default mine for torpedo tubes and if sub is dedicated minelayer, it also loads mines it is set to load in editor.
For example, in stock O19 and O20 load VH2 mines and Mk10s. Argonaut will load Mk12 and Mk10 mines.



Yup.

In WITP, scenario 15, the O19 class has VH2 Dutch mines in slot 1 and Mk 10 Mine US in slot 9. Slot 9 is the special mine slot, which specifies the mines that can fit into torpedo tubes. The ship will therefore load both Dutch and US mines.

Not sure about AE and the O19. I don't know if the Dutch had a torpedo tube loadable mine, if they used US mines, or none at all. But subs will continue to load whatever mines are defined in their weapons slots.


(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 21
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/8/2009 6:03:51 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Status: offline 		I guess US mines aren't exactly 21" in diameter, then, since the Dutch subs have 533mm torpedo tubes...

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 22
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/8/2009 6:40:45 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I guess US mines aren't exactly 21" in diameter, then, since the Dutch subs have 533mm torpedo tubes...


I don't believe the US MK 10 were ever used in Dutch subs. Checked the AE OOB and they are not specified.

The nit, she is picked.



(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 23
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/8/2009 6:47:42 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
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Status: offline 		I've got a Dutch sub sitting in Pearl right this moment in WitP that has loaded both Mk 10 and KH mines; what would it load in the torpedo tubes if it were AE and this situation took place?  Would it load mines in the TT's at all?

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 24
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/8/2009 7:25:48 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I've got a Dutch sub sitting in Pearl right this moment in WitP that has loaded both Mk 10 and KH mines; what would it load in the torpedo tubes if it were AE and this situation took place?  Would it load mines in the TT's at all?



Based on the current status of the AE OOB, a sample Dutch sub (O19) would NOT load US mines into it's torpedo tubes.

However, the selection of weapons to load is based on weapons as specified in the editor, so a Dutch sub would load any mines it was ordered to. A scenario designed could give it a mixture of Dutch, British, and US mines if it tweaked his fancy.

I believe this to be true in WITP as well.


(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 25
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/9/2009 7:53:19 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford
BTW, I sent a couple of the "O" class Dutch subs to Pearl Harbor and put them in a minelaying mission, and noticed they are carrying two types of mines; the US Mk 10 and the KH version the Dutch had. Did the US fly in a supply of the Dutch mines or did the sub have a schematic on board and they just made them on the spot?

The original answer was in response to John Landsford’s question.

A Dutch sub, loading Dutch mines is not restricted to a Dutch Base. It is not possible to restrict these things to a Dutch, Brit, Indian, whatever, base nationality. If there are mines in the pool, you may load them anywhere that has the requisite rearm potential. Just assume a really large Master Chief, with a hammer big enough to make everything fit.

There are different mines, for different subs; Brit mines, Dutch mines, US mines, and of course Japanese mines.

In the AE database, Dutch O-19 and 20 only load the M Mk-IID (the VH2) in their dedicated mine tubes. They do not have a torp tube mine capability. Only a limited number of Dutch subs have a torp tube capability. Sometime around early ’43 Dutch subs can upgrade from the M Mk-IID to load US Mk 12s, but need some yard time to make the transition.


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Post #: 26
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/23/2009 9:13:19 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
...You'd better include the #2 girl from Large Slow Target's avatar to hand deliver the funds to me.


Of course - the one with the biggest... um, smile .


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(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 27
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/23/2009 12:44:14 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
...You'd better include the #2 girl from Large Slow Target's avatar to hand deliver the funds to me.


Of course - the one with the biggest... um, smile .



Actually it is her smile. I like bow girl for the best ... um! At least I think I do. If that damn "Large Slow Target" weren't in the way I could tell for sure.

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 28
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/23/2009 12:49:20 PM   
Zakhal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
Of course - the one with the biggest... um, smile .

Where did you get the original pic? Are there more of those somwhere?

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(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 29
RE: Shipping Shortages - 4/23/2009 3:17:13 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		My vote is for LST Girl #2, with Girl #1 running a close second.  I'd like to interview them personally before I cast a final vote, though.

Ahh, it must be nice to live somewhere where clothing is only rarely needed, and then minimal amounts required at worst.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 30
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