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What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Studios-Vassel Controversy?

 
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What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Studios-... - 3/30/2009 10:36:44 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		So one can't dismiss the unique coincidence in timing here. Curt Schilling permenately quits baseball and literally a few days later MMP announces they are pulling all support for Vassel. To an internet reaction so negative as to have dozens to hundreds canceling MMP pre-orders overnight without fact or comment.

Then there is 38 Studios.. Curt Schilling's PC Game company...currently working on his own Fantasy MMO with some top talent signed and major budgeting and outside support and investment...said to have now acquired electronic rights to MMP's full portfolio of boardgames?!?

Does Matrix Games face a new and highly funded rival? Or is it all just more BS? What does MMP really have up their sleeves this time to make so bold a stance against Vassel? Is a rule-enforced full PC implementation of ASL in our near future? Can one man's dream and personal fortune be enough to make all our dreams a reality? Or is he just another nut likely to still be working on said implementation on his death bed 40+ years from now?

Even sadder to me is the fact that MMP has now reversed course, based upon reaction, and stated they will support the status quo for the time being (ie. vassel) until they are ready to state full details on whatever the alternative will be under their control (Speculation includes a pay-to-play based system). I think they now look even sillier than before and it really didn't accomplish putting down the revolt since people are still concerned and uncertain what the future holds.

In a world where MMP games are now being hurdled every which way can we not all just find a way to get along and realize a company has a right to enforce electronic rights to their intellectual properties and, god forbid, otherwise turn a profit?

I'm so sad that all those VASL guys poured hundreds if not thousands of hours into the product (and seriously no sarcasm there) but it really was never theirs to do with as they pleased in the first place. I warned against this years and years ago as I always saw this coming eventually.

So what's your take on MMP? Standing Ovation or Burn 'em at the Stake?

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/30/2009 11:01:12 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Correction, MMP doesn't own the right to electronic version of ASL therefore they can't do anything about VASL. Besides ASL I don't buy much from MMP except few games which luckily have VASSAL modules.

See post 67259
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?7@989.J7XtertpYaO.17@.ee6d502/69888

If Mr. Shilling's company will do computer version of MMP boardgames that's fine by me as long as I actually own the software and also I don't have to play a monthly fee...otherwise I'm done with MMP boardgames (except ASL stuff of course).

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 3/30/2009 11:06:13 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/30/2009 11:23:52 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Correction, MMP doesn't own the right to electronic version of ASL therefore they can't do anything about VASL. Besides ASL I don't buy much from MMP except few games which luckily have VASSAL modules.

See post 67259
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?7@989.J7XtertpYaO.17@.ee6d502/69888

If Mr. Shilling's company will do computer version of MMP boardgames that's fine by me as long as I actually own the software and also I don't have to play a monthly fee...otherwise I'm done with MMP boardgames (except ASL stuff of course).


No one said Mr. Schilling purchased the electronic rights from MMP for that title in particular. He could have gotten it from Hasbro/Atari not unlike how Paradox did a few years back. Furthermore there are still derivative rights that MMP owns. I'd be fairly certain that Mr. Schilling has enough money to have sorted out or be in the process of sorting out such details should any of the information in fact be correct. It seems pretty clear that Paradox no longer wishes to do anything with the license so even should they still be the ones retaining it again I'm sure it could be worked out.

What if the monthly fee covered ALL of their games? What if it was a one-time charge not unlike a Matrix Game digital download? Do they really need to be free with the boardgame purchase?

I'm actually a bit undecided where I stand on all this. On one hand I'd really like something better than VASL/vassel... on the otherhand its of perhaps more limited value if enough others don't buy in as well (ie. no opponents). Though I suppose they might also include A.I. but were already way into speculation land as it is..

PS. Though it does seem likely at the moment that the MMP announcement was meant to cover everything OTHER than ASL.

< Message edited by Veldor -- 3/30/2009 11:24:57 PM >

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/30/2009 11:31:21 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Correction, MMP doesn't own the right to electronic version of ASL therefore they can't do anything about VASL. Besides ASL I don't buy much from MMP except few games which luckily have VASSAL modules.

See post 67259
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?7@989.J7XtertpYaO.17@.ee6d502/69888

If Mr. Shilling's company will do computer version of MMP boardgames that's fine by me as long as I actually own the software and also I don't have to play a monthly fee...otherwise I'm done with MMP boardgames (except ASL stuff of course).


No one said Mr. Schilling purchased the electronic rights from MMP for that title in particular. He could have gotten it from Hasbro/Atari not unlike how Paradox did a few years back. Furthermore there are still derivative rights that MMP owns. I'd be fairly certain that Mr. Schilling has enough money to have sorted out or be in the process of sorting out such details should any of the information in fact be correct. It seems pretty clear that Paradox no longer wishes to do anything with the license so even should they still be the ones retaining it again I'm sure it could be worked out.

What if the monthly fee covered ALL of their games? What if it was a one-time charge not unlike a Matrix Game digital download? Do they really need to be free with the boardgame purchase?

I'm actually a bit undecided where I stand on all this. On one hand I'd really like something better than VASL/vassel... on the otherhand its of perhaps more limited value if enough others don't buy in as well (ie. no opponents). Though I suppose they might also include A.I. but were already way into speculation land as it is..

PS. Though it does seem likely at the moment that the MMP announcement was meant to cover everything OTHER than ASL.


I think if Mr. Schilling would have bought the electronic ASL license from Hasbro he would have made that public, just like any other game company and as an example Paradox (which looks like aren't doing much with the license)

It's hard to say with mr. Schilling has in mind...but I'm thinking more like a front end for multi-Player games...and not single player wargames like has Matrix make...but of course I could be completely wrong. As long as I don't have to play monthly fee to be able to play on-line and no draconian DRM then I'm...otherwise forget it.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 3/30/2009 11:34:16 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/30/2009 11:41:24 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
I think if Mr. Schilling would have bought the electronic ASL license from Hasbro he would have made that public, just like any other game company and as an example Paradox (which looks like aren't doing much with the license)


Well, in all fairness, early announcement hasn't shown well for Matrix Games, Paradox, OR MMP. Maybe there is still some red tape to work out? In anycase its already known that Curt is personally involved now and with this decision around vassel support in particular (Whereas he was mostly a ghost in the past)... And since we all know his first and possibly only real love is ASL I can see why others have made that leap of faith towards speculating in regards to ASL.

I honestly see NO chance that his long term goals for whatever product/platform would not include ASL given it is MMP's flagship wargame, and perhaps to some extent, the entire wargame industries flagship product. And then there is that personal love thing again..



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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/30/2009 11:57:05 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I know Curt was involved heavily with getting ASL license to MMP though I also know that it's been years since Curt was involved in anything ASL related publicly wise. I can see Curt producing ASL multiplayer front-end kind of like MMO....however I don't see him making a full version of ASL for single player with AI....it's too complicated and not enough customers.

Rading Brian's Post #67251, it makes me believe there will be monthly fee....like you have with MMOs...

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 6
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 12:20:05 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
Rading Brian's Post #67251, it makes me believe there will be monthly fee....like you have with MMOs...


All I got from that post was that there was going to be some charge, not necessarily a re-occurring one. Basically to paraphase Brian (from MMP) "You boardgamers are all crazy thinking you should get online play, online rules, and more all for the one low low price of the boardgame itself, We intend to get PAID for it all going forward! muhahaha"

But on the speculative side I think I'll now agree on that probability of a monthly fee. It would fit 38 Studios other software product model (Their MMO of course). And no doubt some know-it-all, no-nothing-about-boardgames/wargames-suit told him its the only chance for a profitable business model.

And though I don't necessarily like it, he's probably right. Matrix is spoiling us with 1000 free updates to a product they barely made money on in the first place. The whole point of a monthly charge for MMO's isn't to rape you.. Its to pay staff to not only continually patch the game for years to come but, more importantly, to continually add new content along with other misc items such as special competitions and events.

In the olden days of boardgaming we actually DID pay a monthly fee. It was in the form of Avalon Hill's GENERAL magazine or similar where we got new content each month in the way of ASL Scenarios, Game Expansions in the center with new countersheet/map etc. It was for the same reasons then as now.

Kudos if they are the first to try it in this computer wargaming space and succeed. And, if they don't, I'm sure plenty will be around to tell them "I told you so".

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 1:28:21 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		A similiar thing hapened in with NASCAR Racing 2003. Not quite the same, but similiar. John Henry, the owner of the red sox, bought the rights to NASCAR 2003 and hired Dave Kaemmer (lead design for NASCAR 2003 and other papy sims) in order to start an online racing business using a modified NASCAR Racing 2003 code. They then set about shutting down any MOD that tweaked the physics model. They have since went after other add ons basically eliminating any kind of competition to their subscription based game.

So, basically you used to could buy NASCAR RACING 2003 for roughly $50, and race trucks, sprint cars, formulas cars,.....all with fairly accurate tracks, physics etc. Now, for $20 a month you can play what is basically the same game with those mods. Oh and you dont get all the differnt kinds of cars with the subscription, you only get a few,....same with tracks. Those cost extra....................

Be warned, while it seems like a good thing when someone with deep pockets gets involved in your favorite game,....its usually greed that gets those people rich to begin with,...and that same greed is going to show its ugly face when they start meddling in the business of your favorite game.

A few links----
http://iracing.com/membership/subscriptions.php?lc=2

http://forum.tmcarthur.net/viewtopic.php?t=52


Edit- this is not to say that Mr. Schilling will be anything like J. Henry. I have no knowledge of him outside of baseball. Hopefully he is someone who wants to help the game and not make his 2nd or 3rd fortune from it.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 3/31/2009 2:27:03 AM >

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 2:52:40 AM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Ummm what good is another fantasy based MMO ? We're awash with those already and no matter how good it turns out to be, it'll never beat WoW or EQ, never.


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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 10:53:09 AM   
Tim Coakley

 

Posts: 457
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline 		I want to add my two cents...

Kurt does have a passion for ASL and board gaming. He recently visited my camp in Iraq during a USO show and we spent more time on gaming than on baseball.

He took our information and the week after he left, a big box of MMP products arrived. Very kind gesture by a very genuine person.

Regards,
Tim
Camp Bucca - Iraq

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 11:52:33 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		I just wanted to say I have no idea what this topic is about

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 12:48:45 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Same here.

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They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 1:10:57 PM   
PunkReaper


Posts: 1085
Joined: 8/23/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		Perhaps the discussions at Boardgamegeek and Consimworld will shed some light on the problem for you.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/394024/page/1
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@813.0Vx9ekJlYcz.8@.ee6d502/69837

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 1:21:08 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		too many abbreviations for me...still clueless. It might have something to do with Baseball, but then ASL is mentioned which I thought was Advanced Squad Leader....then this Curtis guy??? And what the hell he has to do with a game? Vassal?

OMG...I think my head started to bleed!

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 1:24:28 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		What's the difference between vassEL and vassAL? Also, what is MMP?

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 1:35:03 PM   
PunkReaper


Posts: 1085
Joined: 8/23/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		As for as I know Kurt Schilling is an American Baseball player who part owns Minute Man Publishing who print board games. They publish Advanced Squad Leader, a game that has a following similar to WitP here... These board games can be played over the internet using the Vassal for free, with people developing modules of games to play online. Now Kurt Schilling has just retired and at the same time MMP has announced that MMP games will no longer be supported on Vassal. However their announcement was vague enough to leave a lot of doubt as to what the company intends for the future, hence the speculation that is occurring. People seem to be worried that since Kurt Schilling has retired from baseball he is now going to become involved in the company changing their business plan and start charging for online play etc..
Hope I got the story right and that I have explained it clearly.

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 3/31/2009 2:13:13 PM   
105mm Howitzer


Posts: 447
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From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline 		Bang on, mate.

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Problem - 3/31/2009 2:19:21 PM   
hermanhum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

As for as I know Kurt Schilling is an American Baseball player who part owns Minute Man Publishing who print board games.

I think it's Multi-Man Publishing.

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RE: Problem - 3/31/2009 2:23:51 PM   
PunkReaper


Posts: 1085
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From: England
Status: offline 		doh

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RE: Problem - 3/31/2009 5:06:52 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
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Status: offline 		Ok I get it I think. He wants to start charging for the use of Vassal to play his games on it? Seems there's another site already doing that called Hex Wars or something like that I saw in a PCgamer magazine of old I had been reading in my throne room? You pay like $9.95 a month I think and I think all the games are already on it or it may be new type games I need to read more about it I guess. So, I guess if this Hex Wars site is going to make money off of wargamers then Curt is going to do the same with vassal?

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RE: Problem - 4/1/2009 1:24:23 AM   
Lord_Stanley

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/21/2007
From: on the pond
Status: offline 		Let me correct a few things:

Curt Schilling, an American Baseball player (Pitcher of superstar caliber) an avid history buff and board wargamer is a part owner of MMP (Multi-Man Publishing, board wargame publisher), he helped them out when they needed financial help and IIRC help MMP acquire the rights to ASL.
Mr Schilling also owns 38 Studios, a designer of PC games (#38 was Schillings uniform number).

MMP has the rights to the ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) series. To say ASL is similiar to WiTP is a gross understatement, WiTp has probably sold in the low thousand of copies while ASL has sold near millions. ASL has been around since the 70's, a PC version of ASL is the holy grail of board/PC wargaming.
Many PC games have tried to emulate ASL, for example Close Combat, Combat Mission, and othe tactical WW2 combat games.(although the designers deny it now)

VASSAL is a PC based Java application that allows players to play board wargames with each other, a sort of computerized Play By EMail for board wargames. There is no AI or rules within the module, players move all units/game pieces, keep track of stats and must know/own the rules.
Other similiar systems are Cyberbox and ZunTzu.
Usually "modules" for VASSAL are created by a 3rd party/players and not by the game company. Most game companies fully support module creation however because it helps with sales, many players do not have time/table space to play board wargames face-to-face so they use VASSAL instead.

Recently MMP announced that they would no longer be supporting VASSAL for their games. Of course there was a outcry from diehard loyal fans, most play only via VASSAL. The next day MMP backed off saying they would have an annoucement on future online availability later.

Because of Schillings recent retirement from Baseball there is speculation that MMP is partnering with 38 Studios to "port" MMP's extensive line of board wargames to the PC. And that the games will include computerized rules implementation and possible AI.

< Message edited by Lord_Stanley -- 4/1/2009 1:26:28 AM >

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RE: Problem - 4/1/2009 2:01:06 AM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
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Status: offline 		You forgot one thing Lord_Stanley. Hasbro Game company owns ASL. Whatever Curt/MMP does with ASL is over-seen by them.

Here's a link to the Vassal site (which has nothing to do with MMP or Curt Schilling) for those interested:

http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php

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RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 4/1/2009 2:24:46 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tim Coakley

I want to add my two cents...

Kurt does have a passion for ASL and board gaming. He recently visited my camp in Iraq during a USO show and we spent more time on gaming than on baseball.

He took our information and the week after he left, a big box of MMP products arrived. Very kind gesture by a very genuine person.

Regards,
Tim
Camp Bucca - Iraq


CAMP BUCCA!!!!!!!!!! I spent a year based out of there picking up convoys from Navstar. Plus the occasional riot down at the TIF. How do you like all that lovely C wire we strung everywhere? Pounded more pickets than I care to remember.

But I was there when it had nothing.......our Mess Hall was a tent.......dang near ate a rocket. PX was a trailer. 2 DSN phones and no AT&T phones. Internet Cafe went up 3 months prior to us leaving......along with everything else. Lived for 3 months in tents.

Lefty still sneaking into the burn pit?

2/142 Mech Inf 36th ID Texas Guard at the time.

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Post #: 23
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 4/1/2009 8:16:08 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Never used Vassal. They have Memoir '44 but unfortunately, no Conflict of Heroes which is my favourite of the two I own. CoH is good, but there are limitations to single player (no hidden mines, no pre-spotted arty etc)...good game though although short on scenarios. I don't suppose it would be a problem making one up though.

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Post #: 24
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 4/1/2009 12:38:34 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		If you want to see what a true ASL fan is like, head over to ebay and search Advanced Squad Leader. There is a guy selling his entire collection and right now the bid is at $1800.00. I like his hardcover leather bound cowhide rule book and the way he organized his counters. It is a collection to drool over. I'm going to watch this one and see what the final bid is....

< Message edited by J P Falcon -- 4/1/2009 12:39:02 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 4/1/2009 1:00:22 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		I could buy two new computers with that kind of money or at least one really great one with the best video card made and a 10k speed hard drive 1terabyte. Never understood people payin that kind of money for a game. No game is worth that kind of money. Even for collecting. 

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Post #: 26
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 4/1/2009 1:24:15 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Your great computer will be obsolete and worthless in 3 years and the games will be worth the same or even more.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 27
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 4/1/2009 2:16:40 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Link would be cool J P??

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Post #: 28
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 4/1/2009 2:18:53 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Nevermind...found it eBay

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Post #: 29
RE: What is your take on the MMP-Curt Schilling-38 Stud... - 4/1/2009 2:23:28 PM   
Ron

 

Posts: 506
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Nevermind...found it eBay



Wow that's pretty hardcore


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Post #: 30
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