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Gun Mount Question - 3/26/2009 11:48:44 PM

miller7219

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Joined: 4/7/2007
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Gun mounts with more than 1 tube look to fire that many times each time the fire. For example a gun mount with a ROF of 6 and 3 tubes will fire every 30 seconds and each time actually fire 3 times (per their being 3 tubes). At least I notice that if a mounts has 120 rounds, after the above example fires there is only 117 rounds left.

I'm an old fashioned Harpoon kind of guy, so if the above is true then the PH values in the Harpoon Annex would need to be divided by 3, since the Annex PH values are for a full mount firing, not per tube. If the above mount has a 30% PH the value in the Harpoon Annex then the HCE Database should get a 10% PH...each time it fires it actually fires 3 times (to equal the 30% mount PH from Harpoon Annex).

Am I understanding this correctly? If not please set me straight or clarify if Im on track, but missing something.

Post #: 1

Harpoon Classic scenarios - 3/27/2009 3:21:27 AM

hermanhum

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quote:

I'm an old fashioned Harpoon kind of guy, so if the above is true then the PH values in the Harpoon Annex would need to be divided by 3, since the Annex PH values are for a full mount firing, not per tube. If the above mount has a 30% PH the value in the Harpoon Annex then the HCE Database should get a 10% PH...each time it fires it actually fires 3 times (to equal the 30% mount PH from Harpoon Annex).

I think that there's a problem with the math. If you have a 10% PoK, it doesn't mean that rolling a die 10 times means that you will get 100% probability of hitting the target.

At least, that's the impression I get from your description.

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Post #: 2

RE: Gun Mount Question - 3/27/2009 3:34:06 AM

VictorInThePacific

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I would expect the hit probabilities to be stated in terms of each THING that could hit the target. But that is simply my expectation, and as miller states, my expectation is probably incorrect.

What I can make a correct statement on is the combination of probabilities.

Using the above example, if the 3 tubes each fire a shell with an individual hit probability pH = .1, then (assuming independent targeting i.e. a given hit or miss does not affect the other shells) the probability of 3 hits is

p3 = .1 x .1 x .1 = .001, and
p2 = (.1 x .1 x .9) x 3 = .027,
p1 = (.1 x .9 x .9) x 3 = .243,
p0 = .9 x .9 x .9 = .729.

So the probability of getting EXACTLY one hit is .243, and the probability of getting AT LEAST one hit is .271. Close to but not exactly the same as 30%. The difference would be more dramatic for a pH closer to 50%.

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Post #: 3

RE: Gun Mount Question - 3/27/2009 4:12:37 AM

miller7219

Posts: 220
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Maybe I'm a purist here, but Harpoon (the original Three-Sixty version) was created to port the Harpoon minature rules to the computer. Seems after Three-Sixty went under and licence went to Alliance Interactive then Info-Magic, then AGSI, now Matrix with each stop along the way tinkering with the code to make the program more "realistic" instead of more true to the Harpoon minature rules. I'm one to believe that bringing the program back to it's roots is the philosphy that should be had. I think the those programming HCE should sit down with the old classic Harpoon minature rulebook and start undoing, fixing, and put it back the way it was intended....but fix the bugs! If you want realism, at the expense of everthing else, then play Harpoon ANW....as I understand from reading all the drama over in that forum it's broken due to all the attempts at "realism".

The way gunfire was changed a couple of patches ago to this one shot per tube instead of per mount totally deviates from the roots of paper Harpoon. This is just one example of how one cannot sit down with the good old 1990-1991 Annex and rule book and translate all that classic data (that the whole program was founded upon) into HCE.

I miss the "simple" (better IMHO) old Harpoon game, but I won't stop playing HCE. I just got to find crafty ways if possible to cheat the new to get the old. I spent this evening changing all my multi-tube gun mounts to 1 tube so each time they now fire only 1 shot, and I changed the ROF for all mounts to 2 so they fire 1 shot every 30 seconds...just like original Harpoon. Now the Annex PH works as intended. Only side-effect is that in the platform display for each platform with a multi-tube gun mount it says "1 Tube" even if the mount is a dual, triple, or quad. Visual inaccuracy, but the mehcanics of it work like the old days.

Another cheat I had to do with my database to make the Classic Annex translatable to HCE is deduct 15% from all the Surface to Air missiles PH. As I've learned, the program adds 15% to whatever PH value is in the database. If the Annex says missile has air PH of 80%, I put 65% into the HCE database. Like with the gun mount "fix" above the platform display is inaccurate because it displays PH of 65%, but the mechanics work and the missile hits with 80%. As I understand this 15% adding to Air PH was done to make some sort of bridge between the 90-91 Data Annex and Harpoon 4 Data Annex.

Thanks for the responses...you guys are definitely more mathematically capable than I!

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Post #: 4

Harpoon - 3/27/2009 5:11:45 AM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller7219

If you want realism, at the expense of everthing else, then play Harpoon ANW....as I understand from reading all the drama over in that forum it's broken due to all the attempts at "realism".

The way gunfire was changed a couple of patches ago to this one shot per tube instead of per mount totally deviates from the roots of paper Harpoon. This is just one example of how one cannot sit down with the good old 1990-1991 Annex and rule book and translate all that classic data (that the whole program was founded upon) into HCE.

I miss the "simple" (better IMHO) old Harpoon game, but I won't stop playing HCE. I just got to find crafty ways if possible to cheat the new to get the old. I spent this evening changing all my multi-tube gun mounts to 1 tube so each time they now fire only 1 shot, and I changed the ROF for all mounts to 2 so they fire 1 shot every 30 seconds...just like original Harpoon. Now the Annex PH works as intended. Only side-effect is that in the platform display for each platform with a multi-tube gun mount it says "1 Tube" even if the mount is a dual, triple, or quad. Visual inaccuracy, but the mehcanics of it work like the old days.

Another cheat I had to do with my database to make the Classic Annex translatable to HCE is deduct 15% from all the Surface to Air missiles PH. As I've learned, the program adds 15% to whatever PH value is in the database. If the Annex says missile has air PH of 80%, I put 65% into the HCE database. Like with the gun mount "fix" above the platform display is inaccurate because it displays PH of 65%, but the mechanics work and the missile hits with 80%. As I understand this 15% adding to Air PH was done to make some sort of bridge between the 90-91 Data Annex and Harpoon 4 Data Annex.

If only we could fix the woes in ANW as easily as you've done for your personal database (shift a few numbers here, adjust a few numbers there...)

Even if we could do it that way, we'd have to re-do it every 2-3 months since most of the work-arounds would nullified with new 'patches'.

It's good to hear that you found a work-around that satisfies you. At least HCE still allows individual users to configure their scenarios and databases to work for their personal preferences. You might not think it seems like a lot but, when compared to the nightmare in ANW, it's nice to see some things are still on solid foundations.

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RE: Gun Mount Question - 3/27/2009 3:29:07 PM

TonyE

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From: MN, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller7219
The way gunfire was changed a couple of patches ago to this one shot per tube instead of per mount totally deviates from the roots of paper Harpoon. This is just one example of how one cannot sit down with the good old 1990-1991 Annex and rule book and translate all that classic data (that the whole program was founded upon) into HCE.

I miss the "simple" (better IMHO) old Harpoon game, but I won't stop playing HCE. I just got to find crafty ways if possible to cheat the new to get the old. I spent this evening changing all my multi-tube gun mounts to 1 tube so each time they now fire only 1 shot, and I changed the ROF for all mounts to 2 so they fire 1 shot every 30 seconds...just like original Harpoon. Now the Annex PH works as intended. Only side-effect is that in the platform display for each platform with a multi-tube gun mount it says "1 Tube" even if the mount is a dual, triple, or quad. Visual inaccuracy, but the mehcanics of it work like the old days.

You might eventually like the game more again, especially if you are interested in programming some of those try to H3 paper models. But that's a ways down the road. I have this dream of being able to plug in your own models and I don't see ever having time to code each person's favorite model so others will have to step up to the plate. More importantly the database authors will only be able or willing to support so many models.

What follows I'm trying to write as a history, not as a justification...
<start history>
I started my stint at HC programming late 2002, early 2003 at which time the understanding was that we weren't allowed to copy the models of the paper game. That understanding wasn't shattered until last summer when I met Larry Bond at Origins and he seemed shocked and amazed about that situation. In other words, now we can use the paper models (and he would prefer we do). His take isn't for a strict copying of the model, his is to use a more realistic model that axes many of the approximations made for humans. So at least the doorway is open for once again being faithful to the rules.
<end history>

Now since I am currently the main/only programmer of the game and the effort is all volunteer, and 8 or 10 people answer a poll when I post it up

, I end up making most of the decisions on what to work on and how to improve/fix/change it. Unfortunately for your cause I'm not all that interested in replicating the H3 paper rules. I'm very much more likely to pick what I like from each version of paper rules and roll my own for what I don't (active radar jamming for instance where the paper rules are currently deficient for simplicity's sake).

Anyway, if you want to publish a database as consistent as possible with the H3 paper rules, feel free to join us at HarpGamer and ask any questions about the game mechanics that will help you get there (I'm always up for an education and it will help improve the game in the long run).

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to miller7219)

Post #: 6

RE: Gun Mount Question - 3/28/2009 9:55:32 PM

miller7219

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Unfortunately I'm not a programmer or I would definitely take this challenge! What I am is an avid Harpooner and I spend 30-40 hours per week every week playing/database building for my own enjoyment. In my real (professional) life I oversee projects that require programmers/programming so am very familiar with general theory of what programming can and cannot due.

A quick/easy fix (in my non-programmer mind at least!) to the gunnery and missile PH issues mentioned above could be:

1. Add a 2nd field to the mounts window in the database editor. One is the "working" field (the existing "Tubes" field) the other is the platform display field (the new field...say called "Display"). The working field will continue to determine shots per firing and the new field will determine how many tubes to display in the platform display....the new field has no calculatory role it's solely there to allow database editors to use a 1 shot per firing even with multi-tube mounts but display the tubes a mount has appropriately in the platform display.

2. Same with the weapon window. Existing field is the calculatory field, but the 2nd new field (again...say it's called "Display") is for platform display purposes only. The system will continue add 15% to whatever is in the air PH field, but will display in the platform display whatever air PH is in the new field (the true Harpoon Annex value, for example).

I'm glad to hear that Mr Bond has finally spoken and seems has given a mandate to all those that gain great enjoyment from his baby. He obviously has no direct control over the direction of what he started all those years ago when he created the original Harpoon paper rules, other than to encourage and provide inspiration. Ultimately it seems Harpoon will be whatever we want it to be, but it is clear the creator wants it to be faithful to the paper rules at it's core, but for more realism in areas where a paper/miniature alone game cannot logistically accomplish without taxing the player(s) at the expense of playability.

IMHO the community should stop and regroup before continuing to add to/modify HCE as it is today (continue to support it, kill existing bugs, etc...but no adding) and embark upon a very thorough and well managed exploratory mission. Those of us that understand and have available Harpoon paper rules providing the direction to look and the programmers providing the eyes in those directions to find what actually is happening in those regards. We should take every rule section in the Harpoon miniature manual, section by section, and hunt down what the code is doing regarding each section. Noting along the way discrpencies between code and paper rules (missing code to even replicate or code is there, but replicating in contradiction to paper rules), so that ultimately we can have a clear understanding of where we have purity and where we have deviation. We then begin to systematically make the code modifications to get to (back to in many cases) as pure as possible of a translation of the paper rules. We then begin to look at areas where the paper rules weren't able to provide the realism Mr Bond would have liked (and some of us too) due to boardgame/playability issues (like ECM, jamming, etc) and creatively, but responsibly, add that realism. However, I think a core value of adding that realism should always be to give the player the choice....similar to what John Tiller (of Talonsoft/HPS fame) always has done by providing optional rules that can be selected by each player to suit their own taste, but the base start up and play version is 100% faithful to the paper rules.

Anyways, it seems from what Tony says the HCE community is a small one considering the limited responses and support he get from the players, but I'm offering my services to assist in the mission described above if Tony agrees and wants to commission such a mission. If not, no harm, no foul. I'm still a lover and collector of all things Harpoon!

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Post #: 7

Harpoon Classic scenarios - 3/28/2009 11:34:13 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller7219

What I am is an avid Harpooner and I spend 30-40 hours per week every week playing/database building for my own enjoyment.

Wow. Just frikkin' WOW.

Now that this is known, we'll expect a newly written scenario from you on a weekly basis...

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Post #: 8

RE: Harpoon Classic scenarios - 3/29/2009 1:55:06 AM

TonyE

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Thank you for posting Miller7219, I'm looking forward to working with you and hearing what others have to say about your strategic thoughts.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 9

RE: Gun Mount Question - 3/29/2009 6:38:19 PM

noxious

Posts: 177
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From: Montreal, Qc, Canuckistan
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quote:

I'm one to believe that bringing the program back to it's roots is the philosphy that should be had

That's why I'm trying to find time to finish my H4.1/High Tide VASSAL module, so that there is an option for those wanting to play the miniatures rules "face to face" over the net, with or without an umpire.

But it won't be a computer game in the usual sense, in fact not at all : just a way to play one of the best miniatures/boardgame out there, all genres compounded, bar none :)
Instead of miniatures and a tabletop (or gymnasium floor, like the first time I ever played it 20 some years ago ;)), it'll be virtual cardboard counters and maps. Like most of the VASSAL modules out there :)
Now, if i can only find some time to really work on it, and work on the mechanism for users to add scenarios to it...

And you're being a bit unfair to the ANW dev team : their quest for realism has everything to do with following the 4th (and early "draft"/discussions on the 5th edition) rules, as can be easily figured out by talking to the right people, or participating in the right discussions (hint : ANW has no closed beta group anymore, everyone is encouraged to join up and help make it better...)
At least, that's what the realism focus is all about right now, and has been for quite a while.
A lot of misguided or tendencious comments were/are made on the direction ANW was/is taking.

TonyE : any legal reason why we couldn't try to make HCE H4.1/high tide compliant ? I know that you and CV32 have already started down that road (cue in torpedo dmg points and other DB tidbits, and some of the code, iirc), but your mention of following H3 rules is confusing me, unless you mean computer H3 ? (the computer games are all originally based off the third iteration of the paper rules, the GDW ones, iirc, but both HCE and ANW have been doing work in the vein of integrating more H4.1 rules, correct ?).
My time is limited atm, but I wouldn't mind getting involved with code, as you know :)
Hmm, I'll try to send you a proposal on the external API thingy soonish, so that I could start doing stuff without you having to open up/share the codebase (thus no dealing with sensitive legal issues, etc. Or the threat of yet another code leak...).

A solid modding API, and exposed internals through script/config files (whatever the language, scheme) would go a long way to help people tinker with everything without having to delve into sharing the whole codebase :)
You know where I can be reached.

Miller, glad to hear I'm not the only user who would like more adherence to the miniatures rules, which are realistic aplenty.
Actually, I know we're not the only ones, but it would be good for more of the users to chime up with their visions on what they want HCE (or ANW) to be. I salute your effort ;)
In fact, I believe both ANW and HCE can follow that philosophy while still fulfilling different needs and not taking away sales from each other.
Who knows, it might all get used and considered to build the foundation of the next gen computer Harpoon ;)

Cheers, happy pooning !!

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Harpoon - 3/29/2009 7:03:31 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: noxious

... as can be easily figured out by talking to the right people, or participating in the right discussions (hint : ANW has no closed beta group anymore, everyone is encouraged to join up and help make it better...)

Unfortunately, this claim is unsubstantiated. Otherwise, these secret fora/mechanisms would not be password protected and discriminatory:

http://forum.computerharpoon.com/viewforum.php?f=4
http://forum.computerharpoon.com/viewforum.php?f=5
http://www.computerharpoon.com/beta/
http://mantis.advancedgaming.biz/

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RE: Harpoon - 3/29/2009 9:17:34 PM

noxious

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Erh, albeit you do raise a point and while I wish I could clarify the situation, not being an employee of AGSI, or Matrix, I can't comment further.
I'll try to remember to raise the issue more appropriately, eg. not in an HCE forum ;)

That said, putting a link to a private HCE forum that hasn't been in use for a couple years, when you're not only fully aware that HCE beta testing happens at harpgamer.com but that it's also completely open might be construed as disingenuous :)
Or that you're just copy pasting.
Or maybe, just maybe, you simply made an honest mistake (like me mentioning completely open beta for ANW, which it's still not atm)
Not sure which is worse, lol 8p
Cheers !

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RE: Harpoon - 3/29/2009 9:25:56 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: noxious

That said, putting a link to a private HCE forum that hasn't been in use for a couple years, when you're not only fully aware that HCE beta testing happens at harpgamer.com but that it's also completely open might be construed as disingenuous :)

Absolutely. The HCE method of handling development and problems is the model to follow, IMO.

Truly open discussion, truly open beta releases, truly open bug tracking systems...

Little wonder that there are so few documented problems of major significance for this version.

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RE: Harpoon - 3/30/2009 2:38:28 AM

TonyE

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Hi again Noxious,
I mentioned the H3 paper rules in this thread since I assumed that was the goal of Miller, to have strict adherence to the H3 paper rules, not H4.1. ANW is definitely on a push to adhere to the paper rules in the newest form which in some cases is newer than H4.1. We haven't with HCE been making much effort at wiring in H4 models other than thru that long-term method of allowing people to plug in what they want. ANW is also heavily into the idea of computerizing the raw models before they are simplified for paper usage (i.e. don't use a radar horizon table, calculate it on the fly to provide a more linear result).
Additionally I can wrap my head around the H3 paper rules, the H4.1 rules go to a depth that makes me lose some amount of interest. For me, with a Miller7219 or two around to keep pushing me on IRC and testing crazy numbers of releases I think we could fairly quickly produce a variant of the game that closely matches the H3 paper rules. If there were similar people beating the H4.1 drum maybe that would be a good second major variant of the game to pursue but for now Miller is interested and H3 paper adherence seems to be his goal. (sorry to talk about you like you aren't here Miller7219 <g>)

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

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RE: Gun Mount Question - 4/3/2009 9:18:11 PM

Divefreak

Posts: 119
Joined: 7/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller7219

I'm an old fashioned Harpoon kind of guy, so if the above is true then the PH values in the Harpoon Annex would need to be divided by 3, since the Annex PH values are for a full mount firing, not per tube. If the above mount has a 30% PH the value in the Harpoon Annex then the HCE Database should get a 10% PH...each time it fires it actually fires 3 times (to equal the 30% mount PH from Harpoon Annex).

Am I understanding this correctly? If not please set me straight or clarify if Im on track, but missing something.

You�re right...

that�s why i recalcutated every single PH value for guns in my HC Database series...

there are some test scens around for my HC-80to95-DB, it gives you a totally different feeling for gunnery battles.

Try it if you like

regards Ren�

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Post #: 15