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Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/5/2009 1:31:34 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
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Status: offline 		Deos anybody have or know where I can get a map of Eastern Europe (including European USSR) at 15km per hex?

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/5/2009 12:16:10 PM   
golden delicious


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Status: offline 		If you're designing a serious project you'll probably find any pre-existing maps disappointing. You may be better off making your own.

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/5/2009 3:21:09 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Golden_Delicious,

I'll be getting my hands on a great map of Eastern Europe at the 25km scale soon, but I think the 15km scale (1/2-week turns) is ideal.  My best option at this point seems to be to try and convert the 7.5km "Barbarossa Tactical" map to 15km.  [Yeah.  Good luck with that...]

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/5/2009 6:26:01 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Golden_Delicious,

I'll be getting my hands on a great map of Eastern Europe at the 25km scale soon, but I think the 15km scale (1/2-week turns) is ideal.  My best option at this point seems to be to try and convert the 7.5km "Barbarossa Tactical" map to 15km.  [Yeah.  Good luck with that...]


My experience with that sort of thing wasn't encouraging. You can try it, of course.


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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/5/2009 10:08:57 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		Which area exactly do you want to see covered? At 15 KM I doubt there's not much to pick from

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/5/2009 10:31:02 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Silvanski,

I'm looking for the area roughly bounded by (Danzig/West, Viipuri/North, Gorkiy/East, Astrakhan/South)

I'm toying with the idea for two separate, but related scenarios. 
#1 June 1941-Dec 1941, The Axis Invasion (I'll come up with a better title).
#2 June 1944-Dec 1944, The Soviet Juggernaut (I'll come up with a better title).

The idea is that the same player plays Germany in both scenarios while his opponent plays the Soviets in both scenarios (thus, both players are simultaneously faced with glorious offensive opportunities as well as horrible defensive nightmares).

I think that 15km and 1/2-week is the best scale (about 50 turns per scenario).  But, 25km and 1-week scale would work pretty well, I guess (if that's the only scale I can get a good map). 

Anyway, if you have any ideas where I can get a good 15km map of the area outlined above, please let me know.

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/5/2009 11:03:39 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		As far as I can tell there are only 10 and 20/25 KM maps... If you decide to go for the 20/25 KM scale you can clip and modify the big one of Europa 1947. That one has seen many modifications from the Wahlberg original via Piero via myself

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/6/2009 9:10:40 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Silvanski,

I've downloaded Europa 1947 and am looking at the map.  Interesting.

I'm also interested in looking at the extra equipments you added.  Unfortunately, the link you provided to the photoalbum of new equipments gets re-directed into nowhere, which sucks. 

Can you post a list of the new equipments used in Europa 1947?  Thanks.

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/7/2009 12:27:21 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Silvanski,

I've downloaded Europa 1947 and am looking at the map.  Interesting.

I'm also interested in looking at the extra equipments you added.  Unfortunately, the link you provided to the photoalbum of new equipments gets re-directed into nowhere, which sucks. 

Can you post a list of the new equipments used in Europa 1947?  Thanks.

this is the correct link
http://forums.gamesquad.com/album.php?albumid=8

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/7/2009 2:51:31 AM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Silvanksi,

Thanks! You should have included the USAF B-36 and the Soviet MiG-15 in your scenario, though. Both were in production during the 1947-1950 time period of your scenario.

The B-36 carried a 72,000lb bomb load over a range of 6,000 miles and was the largest piston engined warplane ever built.

The MiG-15 was possibly the best combat fighter in the world (except perhaps the USAF F-86) during the time period of Europa 1947 and was built in enormous numbers. As many as 18,000 were built (including licensed exports) during its production run.

Below is a picture taken in 1946 of a B-29 and a B-36.

[Addendum: Personally, I don't like including strategic weapons in an operational game. I believe that only tactical support weapons should be included. This would mean that the MiG-15 is more important tactically and operationally. But since you have included other strategic weapons (which I would remove and replace with tactical-support weapons), then the B-36 should also be included.]






Attachment (1)

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/7/2009 4:29:43 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Silvanksi,

Thanks! You should have included the USAF B-36 and the Soviet MiG-15 in your scenario, though.

Thanks for pointing out these birds. They may be included. The Allied airforce needs to be looked into more cuz they have trouble wretching AS from the Luftwaffe and its partner airforces

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/7/2009 8:20:17 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Silvanski,

I was incorrect.  Europa 1947 actually does have MiG-15s, but they are German and not Soviet.  Huh??

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/7/2009 10:35:34 PM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Silvanski,

I was incorrect.  Europa 1947 actually does have MiG-15s, but they are German and not Soviet.  Huh??


Que??
Do you have the latest version and its equipment file installed?
http://forums.gamesquad.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=1860


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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/7/2009 11:32:33 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Silvanski,

You are correct.  I didn't have the Europa 1947 v3.3 .eqp file loaded in the editor.  But now there is a new problem.  The v3.3 .eqp file overwrites the Soviet MiG-15 with the German Ta-183.  This means that the Soviet MiG-15 has been deleted and replaced by the Ta-183 in the v3.3 .eqp file.  So, if you want to have MiG-15s in your game (and I think you should), then you will have to move the Ta-183 someplace else.

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/7/2009 11:41:01 PM   
Silvanski


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Status: offline 		I've currently got an update on the shelf with Soviet jets

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/8/2009 3:38:25 AM   
BillLottJr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Silvanski,

You are correct.  I didn't have the Europa 1947 v3.3 .eqp file loaded in the editor.  But now there is a new problem.  The v3.3 .eqp file overwrites the Soviet MiG-15 with the German Ta-183.  This means that the Soviet MiG-15 has been deleted and replaced by the Ta-183 in the v3.3 .eqp file.  So, if you want to have MiG-15s in your game (and I think you should), then you will have to move the Ta-183 someplace else.


The premise of Europa 1947 is a German victory in WWII, so the Soviets don't get the services of captured German aircraft designers with their new-fangled swept wing fighter designs. The Soviets get some jets, but not the MiG-15 (which I believe was a development of the TA-183 design).

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/8/2009 2:43:26 PM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		Bill II,

The initial premise is interesting.  However, military secrets are notoriously hard to keep and the British and Soviet intelligence networks of the time were extremely effective.  Further, there would be defections once the horror of a Nazi victory fully set in.

I have no problem with the initial premise.  But by 1947, the Allies and the Soviets would know pretty much everything the Germans know.  Further, as has been pointed out in other places, the "winners" usually get complacent and overconfident.  The Germans historically suffered from this in 1939-1941 when they did not advance many of their programs or their industrial capacity since they did not feel the need to do so (they war was already over from their perspective, which gave them zero incentive to develop a 'total war' posture, and this is historical fact for which they paid the ultimate price).  But the Soviets and the Allies did not grow complacent.  They did the exact opposite. 

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/8/2009 6:04:13 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Bill II,

The initial premise is interesting.  However, military secrets are notoriously hard to keep and the British and Soviet intelligence networks of the time were extremely effective.  Further, there would be defections once the horror of a Nazi victory fully set in.

I have no problem with the initial premise.  But by 1947, the Allies and the Soviets would know pretty much everything the Germans know.  Further, as has been pointed out in other places, the "winners" usually get complacent and overconfident.  The Germans historically suffered from this in 1939-1941 when they did not advance many of their programs or their industrial capacity since they did not feel the need to do so (they war was already over from their perspective, which gave them zero incentive to develop a 'total war' posture, and this is historical fact for which they paid the ultimate price).  But the Soviets and the Allies did not grow complacent.  They did the exact opposite. 


I'd differ with much that Vahauser says here in detail -- but he is right about one thing.

It's hard to see that late-war efflorescence of German jet fighter designs in a world in which Germany has won the war. Even if one assumes the same design effort, it would be aimed in other directions.


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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/8/2009 9:16:32 PM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill II
The premise of Europa 1947 is a German victory in WWII, so the Soviets don't get the services of captured German aircraft designers


Agree, but downed aircraft may provide insight in jet technology




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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/8/2009 10:24:31 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Bill II,

The initial premise is interesting.  However, military secrets are notoriously hard to keep and the British and Soviet intelligence networks of the time were extremely effective.  Further, there would be defections once the horror of a Nazi victory fully set in.


Would there? The Germans seem to have been pretty content with the way things were going until it became apparent that the war was going to be lost. Further, Germany's worst excesses were arguably a response to the increasingly dire situation at the front.

quote:

But by 1947, the Allies and the Soviets would know pretty much everything the Germans know.


I'm not sure about that. Aircraft design isn't just about knowing concepts and equations.

quote:

Further, as has been pointed out in other places, the "winners" usually get complacent and overconfident.


That's OK. The designs the Germans were putting out in 1945 would have been perfectly capable of squaring off against whatever the allies could produce in most fields by 1947.

Your related point is more worthy. Depending on the timeline, German production might never have risen above 1942 levels. This will obviously cause them problems if they find themselves faced with a major land campaign, but I don't see how Soviet Russia would be allowed to continue its existence, so there will be no major land campaign.

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/8/2009 10:27:50 PM   
golden delicious


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ORIGINAL: ColinWright
It's hard to see that late-war efflorescence of German jet fighter designs in a world in which Germany has won the war. Even if one assumes the same design effort, it would be aimed in other directions.


The Me-262 first flew in April 1941. While some of the more advanced aircraft designs might not appear, certainly the Germans will have at least this much, and more depending on the timeline.

Anyway, assuming Germany destroys Russia but Britain is still active, Germany will want to maintain a powerful air force. I suppose the priority would be on long-range aircraft rather than the most effective interceptors, though.


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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/8/2009 10:38:22 PM   
golden delicious


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ORIGINAL: Silvanski

Agree, but downed aircraft may provide insight in jet technology


Jet engines aren't a problem. The theories were all widely known before the war and the RAF's first jet flight was in April 1941, well before information on the German technology was available (in fact at the time the Italians were believed to have made the world's first jet flight a full year after the German tests began).

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/9/2009 5:20:13 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious




Would there? The Germans seem to have been pretty content with the way things were going until it became apparent that the war was going to be lost. Further, Germany's worst excesses were arguably a response to the increasingly dire situation at the front.


I don't think so. In fact, the Germans emphatically turned to 'the dark side' in the halcyon days of Operation Barbarossa. Everyone was figuring Russia was going to fold in another few weeks -- and the Einsatzgruppen were already hard at work. The Germans had logged a good million of their final tally before there was any reason for them to think they might not win the war after all.

Indeed, I've read some German historians on this who may be being excessively masochistic, but their contention is that the German slaughter actually became more restrained once it was realized the war might go on for a while. Leaving Russian peasants alive to grow food started to have its points, the efforts to kill off what was left of the 1941 POW haul slackened, etc. Jews, of course, were a special case -- but as noted, even there the slaughter had begun well before there was any reason to doubt in the certainty of final victory.

On the other hand, I doubt that the true extent of German atrocities would be realized. The Germans were fairly secretive about what they were up to, and the initial reports were historically met with incredulity. After all, everyone remembered the absurdly exaggerated atrocity claims of World War One, and things like this simply weren't done. Jews being gassed by the million? Pshaw.

It would have been a rumor, not a driving motive for international action. I'm reminded of Richard Nixon's various crimes. These were all alleged well before the 1972 elections -- but they weren't proven. The claims had no apparent effect on the vote at all. Nixon won in a landslide.

The Germans couldn't reasonably be supposed to be methodically exterminating the entire Jewish population of Europe -- just like the President couldn't actually be ordering burglaries.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 4/9/2009 5:46:21 AM >

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/9/2009 5:23:57 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
It's hard to see that late-war efflorescence of German jet fighter designs in a world in which Germany has won the war. Even if one assumes the same design effort, it would be aimed in other directions.


The Me-262 first flew in April 1941. While some of the more advanced aircraft designs might not appear, certainly the Germans will have at least this much, and more depending on the timeline.

Anyway, assuming Germany destroys Russia but Britain is still active, Germany will want to maintain a powerful air force. I suppose the priority would be on long-range aircraft rather than the most effective interceptors, though.



Yeah. In hindsight, the most potentially decisive weapon would be a really effective long-range maritime bomber -- perhaps equipped with those guided glider bombs the Germans had put into service by 1943.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 4/9/2009 5:36:51 AM >

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/9/2009 5:26:25 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

Agree, but downed aircraft may provide insight in jet technology


Jet engines aren't a problem. The theories were all widely known before the war and the RAF's first jet flight was in April 1941, well before information on the German technology was available (in fact at the time the Italians were believed to have made the world's first jet flight a full year after the German tests began).


However, reliable jet engines were a problem. Historically, I think one of the more common ways Me-262's were lost was when one engine failed and their speed dropped to the point where P-51's could catch them.


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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/9/2009 6:19:19 AM   
vahauser


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Status: offline 		I personally don't have a problem with Europa 1947 as an interesting 'make-believe' hypothetical scenario. 

In reality, I don't think that the Germans could have won WW2.  At most, maybe a 1% chance.  Too many circumstances and conditions working against them.  But I can put aside my 'reality hat' and play Europa 1947 as a fun 'make-believe' scenario and just enjoy myself playing the game.


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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/9/2009 7:33:54 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

I personally don't have a problem with Europa 1947 as an interesting 'make-believe' hypothetical scenario. 

In reality, I don't think that the Germans could have won WW2.  At most, maybe a 1% chance.  Too many circumstances and conditions working against them.  But I can put aside my 'reality hat' and play Europa 1947 as a fun 'make-believe' scenario and just enjoy myself playing the game.



Here's an argument that could go on forever!

I'd give them about a 20% chance. Among the more likely what-if's.

1. There is no Panzer halt order. The BEF is destroyed and Britain agrees to a negotiated peace (this would have been more likely than has subsequently been made out). Alternatively, the BEF is destroyed and the Germans mount a successful invasion of Britain.

2. It's my belief that the Soviet Union almost collapsed in 1941 -- particularly in early October, things were really coming apart at the seams. Obviously, there are several ways that collapse could have become complete. No German August pause, no German turn to the south, the fall rains not arriving unusually early.

3. Another key really is things developing in such a way that America never enters the war. Like, if Britain exits in 1940, or if the United States has a president that is less determinedly interventionist than Roosevelt. Say Huey Long isn't assassinated and executes his plan to be in the White House by 1940.

However, if I was going to concoct a what-if along the lines of Europa 1947, the time-line would go more as follows.

1. The Western Allies decide on a 1943 landing in France. D-Day happens on June 6th, 1943.

2. The Germans cancel Citadel. Go over to Manstein's 'backhand' strategy for the summer of 1943.

3. Full-strength panzer divisions, a Luftwaffe still able to dispute control of the skies, etc go west and smash the Allies back into the sea. Meanwhile, the Russians surge forward in the east -- but the Germans are trading space for time.

4. Sometime in August. Manstein executes his 'backhand.' Catastrophic Russian losses.

5. Things don't go much of anywhere in 1944. Everyone's too beaten up.

6. We have 'the assault on Fortress Europe' for 1945. Probabilities aside, it's a hypothetical more to my taste, as everything is still close enough to the historical TO&E's that the units, forces, etc have a certain plausibility.

7. Come to think of it, the 1943 scenario sounds like a lot of fun as well.



< Message edited by ColinWright -- 4/9/2009 7:48:13 AM >

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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/9/2009 7:33:27 PM   
golden delicious


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ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Yeah. In hindsight, the most potentially decisive weapon would be a really effective long-range maritime bomber -- perhaps equipped with those guided glider bombs the Germans had put into service by 1943.


It would have to be escorted. Assuming the Germans can't prevent Japan's annihilation, the Allies will be able to provide fighter cover for the whole convoy route.


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RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/9/2009 7:35:49 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

However, reliable jet engines were a problem.


OK- and the RAF had these too by Spring 1945. It does seem to have just been a matter of time rather than of cracking the magical secret behind jet power.

What the Germans did have were some very advanced designs to put their jet engines in. These already seem to have been in train.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 29
RE: Looking for a Map of WW2 Eastern Europe - 4/9/2009 7:39:46 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

1. There is no Panzer halt order. The BEF is destroyed and Britain agrees to a negotiated peace (this would have been more likely than has subsequently been made out). Alternatively, the BEF is destroyed and the Germans mount a successful invasion of Britain.


Or the BEF isn't destroyed but Lord Halifax becomes Prime Minister. Entirely possible- and likely to produce a negotiated settlement.

quote:

6. We have 'the assault on Fortress Europe' for 1945. Probabilities aside, it's a hypothetical more to my taste, as everything is still close enough to the historical TO&E's that the units, forces, etc have a certain plausibility.


This scenario is another possibility- but what happens when the atom bomb becomes available in August? Presumably, it's going to be on the first B-29 to Berlin.

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