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Project Management - 4/12/2009 8:29:23 AM   
Jutland13

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 7/5/2006
Status: offline 		Game is a year late and no end in site. Snotty answers and lack of info have me moving on. I still love the original, hope the AE gets sorted out someday.
Post #: 1
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 9:48:53 AM   
51st Highland Div


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/23/2005
From: Glasgow,Scotland
Status: offline 		A lack of info ? What planet are you living on ? Have you actually read any of the forums on AE ? I look forward to you posting an apology to all those working hard in developing this game when it comes out for your cheek..it is a dis-service to all those paid (and unpaid) who have put a lot of time into developing what is a monster of a game
Shame on you sir...

< Message edited by 51st Highland Div -- 4/12/2009 9:52:15 AM >

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Post #: 2
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 10:11:06 AM   
kfmiller41


Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline 		your loss because when it comes out as it will be well worth the wait. Good things come to those with patience

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Post #: 3
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 10:19:21 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Sorry you feel that way, Jutland, but like Miller said, "your loss". It's like you're sitting in the Space Shuttle and decide to get off at T - 5 seconds because the countdown is taking too long.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 4/12/2009 12:22:25 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 11:16:37 AM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jutland13

Game is a year late and no end in site. Snotty answers and lack of info have me moving on. I still love the original, hope the AE gets sorted out someday.

Hi Jutland.......not sure you are reading the same forum.....I've always had my questions answered in a polite manner.....despite clearly being very busy trying to finish the game......there has been loads of info over the last few months.....and the end is, from what I understand, in sight...........it may be late.....but I suspect it will be well worth the wait.......

(in reply to Jutland13)
Post #: 5
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 5:28:40 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Man, and he just hoined a few years agoo. I've been waiting for a proper WITP since 2004. I've waited 5+ years, I can wait another month or so. Unfortunately I'll be too busy working until the tourist season ends in November to enjoy the darn thing. Oh well, the first patch might be out then.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 6
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 5:46:17 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Man, and he just hoined a few years agoo. I've been waiting for a proper WITP since 2004. I've waited 5+ years, I can wait another month or so. Unfortunately I'll be too busy working until the tourist season ends in November to enjoy the darn thing. Oh well, the first patch might be out then.


Come on, Ron, fess up. You and I both know we've been waiting since the 70's for it to be 'done right'. Of course to us that means 'done perfectly', which is impossible according to the laws of physics. As you said a few more days/weeks waiting to get a lot closer to the impossible is just fine!

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Post #: 7
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 6:59:48 PM   
grraven2004


Posts: 273
Joined: 3/4/2004
From: Cuyahoga Falls OH
Status: offline 		What I'm curious about is what is there to move on to????

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Post #: 8
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 7:10:14 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

What I'm curious about is what is there to move on to????


Pong.



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Pax

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Post #: 9
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 9:44:35 PM   
Jutland13

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 7/5/2006
Status: offline 		A few too many sctoch last evening and some frustration, not with all those who I can appreciate have worked so hard. I have received some very good info from some. However, many others seem enamored with seeing how many smart@ss responses they can type on the forum. I guess I became one of them last evening, apologies to all. I admit I will dole out what ever is required to purchase it and drive my wife to fits again. I manage many projects and appreciate the challenge. Good luck. 

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Post #: 10
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 10:33:43 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Jut,

Some of us do get a bit tired of pumping out the same answers 100 times - but we have to realize it is only us that knows we've pumped out the same answers 100 times - most people only see the answer the one time they ask - so it is not your fault if you ask us a question that has been answered before! And we have no reason to behave badly in any case.

The short answer on the delay and the status is that about June of 2008 we finally and reluctantly realized we would have to rewrite a major part of the AI processing in order to make it work for us - this took about 3 months to get the code working and then about 6 months (till about a month ago) for the script team to learn how to really use it - and to get through a number of full war tests for both sides. So this little "detour" is now mostly over and we're "heading" towards the finish line - though not all of us are "sprinting" as hard as we were 3 years ago when we started around the track!


Joe


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Post #: 11
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 10:36:12 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		You'd think we'd have gotten in shape by now...

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Post #: 12
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 10:37:52 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		To confirm a lot of peoples' opinion that I love to hear myself talk, here's a recent post of mine that I think encapsulates things somewhat neatly:

quote:


Disclaimer: This is my opinion only, and not a "company line" of Matrix or anybody else.

I can understand if people are frustrated by this seemingly endless delay. Lots of time I, and the rest of the team, have been as well. We've seen several release deadlines come and go, and every time it's very difficult to muster the energy to go on.

But here's the thing: those release deadlines were pushed back FOR A REASON. Every single time we took a look at the product and had to admit that this was not something that was fit for release.

We're not doing this to be douchebags, but because we're gamers ourselves. We can look at this with both player and developer hats on, and see if it's ready, and there's no almighty publishing house standing behind us, pushing us to release to some arbitrary deadline. Kudos to Matrix for that.

We could have released this a long time ago, but it would have been an incomplete, inferior and quite frankly unworthy game.

My name is on the credits list for this product, and I don't want it to be anything less than something I can be proud of. I remember a quote from a game manual once (IIRC, for Civilization IV) along the lines of "we didn't want to be known as the team who broke Civilization". Well, we don't want to be known as the team who broke WitP.

We've all stuck with this game for nearly five years now, waaaay longer than most games live in this day and age, and we're just about to take a big leap forward. I love what we've done and are continuing to do with AE, and the vast majority of WitP gamers will too.

Rant over.


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Post #: 13
RE: Project Management - 4/12/2009 10:45:22 PM   
Jutland13

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 7/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you. I am sure the your efforts will be well recieved. I will wait patiently.

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Post #: 14
RE: Project Management - 4/13/2009 2:00:49 AM   
MadmanRick


Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

What I'm curious about is what is there to move on to????


The newest Rock Band game should be out soon and before long, Bioshock 2 should be out!

Rick

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Post #: 15
RE: Project Management - 4/13/2009 2:07:44 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Hey Jutland!! Nice to know I'm not the only one who has posted after a few too many. I seem to remember one time in 2004 that removed the magic key to the dev forum. Frustration and booze don't mix. I'm still angry with myself over that.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 16
RE: Project Management - 4/13/2009 3:04:50 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Man, and he just hoined a few years agoo. I've been waiting for a proper WITP since 2004. I've waited 5+ years, I can wait another month or so. Unfortunately I'll be too busy working until the tourist season ends in November to enjoy the darn thing. Oh well, the first patch might be out then.


Come on, Ron, fess up. You and I both know we've been waiting since the 70's for it to be 'done right'. Of course to us that means 'done perfectly', which is impossible according to the laws of physics. As you said a few more days/weeks waiting to get a lot closer to the impossible is just fine!



Ayup! Been there. Done That. Bought the Tee Shirt. Burned it. Bought another one. Wore it out. Still wear it. Wife hates it.


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Post #: 17
RE: Project Management - 4/14/2009 4:33:59 AM   
Jutland13

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 7/5/2006
Status: offline 		Yup, feeling a might bit stupid. Thanks for the understanding. My wife is away with the boys for the week, I cannot handle the bachelor life.

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Post #: 18
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 6:48:23 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

The short answer on the delay and the status is that about June of 2008 we finally and reluctantly realized we would have to rewrite a major part of the AI processing in order to make it work for us - this took about 3 months to get the code working and then about 6 months (till about a month ago) for the script team to learn how to really use it - and to get through a number of full war tests for both sides. So this little "detour" is now mostly over and we're "heading" towards the finish line


For those who are a bit frustrated over the long wait, I ask you to read those words...and then read them again. Keep in mind that we are talking about a team that was working on AE for years, and after all that time what they had accomplished was a steaming pile of poo. I mean no disrespect to all the folks who had moved mountains (of documents) in making the OOBs *just so*, researched and built the wonderful maps, sourced and created the gorgeous art, and all the unsung others with their thousands of unsung contributions. But after years of untold sweat and effort, what they had achieved was not a releaseable game. But did this team give up? Throw in the towel? No. They went back to the drawing board and many agonizing months later, AE is something they are obviously proud of, and a game we can all realistically expect to challenge and enchant us for years to come.

So when the "long wait" seems a bit too much, just imagine what it felt like to be on the AE team in the months approaching June of 2008 as they slowly and inexorably realized the magnitude of what was required to make this thing work. If they could overcome THAT, we can handle this.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 19
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 8:58:27 AM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		Good job calling a lot of work a steaming pile of poo.

And good job, original poster, for preferring an inferior game, and complaining publicly because you haven't been entertained fast enough for your liking.

< Message edited by Alikchi -- 4/20/2009 8:59:34 AM >

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Post #: 20
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 2:59:38 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		It is perfectly clear i think for everyone that what is holding the game are AI issues and the way to make the game work well outside PBEM world. It is a noble effort.

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Post #: 21
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 3:31:54 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

It is perfectly clear i think for everyone that what is holding the game are AI issues and the way to make the game work well outside PBEM world. It is a noble effort.


Well, I wouldnt go that far. I dont play the AI, and Im still finding a fair share of problems

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Post #: 22
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 3:51:09 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

Good job calling a lot of work a steaming pile of poo.



Actually, he was complimenting us...

< Message edited by Terminus -- 4/20/2009 4:14:36 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 4:08:46 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		My bday isnt until late june so there is still few months to go.

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Post #: 24
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 4:43:55 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

imagine what it felt like to be on the AE team in the months approaching June of 2008 as they slowly and inexorably realized the magnitude of what was required to make this thing work. If they could overcome THAT, we can handle this.



Well, I'd better not peel back the curtain too far - but you've certainly guessed that we had a decision point in here.

Given our "hopes and desires" for much of early 2008 - we kept thinking - "The AI is almost working" - "The AI is almost working". But as tweak after tweak to the embedded scripts seemed to only "move the problem" - we finally realized - "The AI is not working".

I've been doing software - for large systems for many years - and facing a "crisis" like this was nothing new. When confronted with the evidenve, there is nothing to do but "fix the problem". So I wrote up a short 2-page spec for a new processor. James the programmer liked it. Andy the lead script writer liked it. So we "jumped off the cliff". Actually it was an easy decision. We just regret not doing it sooner - but I think we were blinded by our "hopes and desires".


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Post #: 25
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 5:09:46 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Aye it was the 6 months of

its almost working we are nearly there
maybe if I throw just one more Division at it the AI will do it
OMG why wont the AI do what its <add expletive of choice> told




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Post #: 26
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 6:46:40 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Well, I wouldnt go that far. I dont play the AI, and Im still finding a fair share of problems


I stand corrected

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Post #: 27
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 7:47:56 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

When confronted with the evidenve, there is nothing to do but "fix the problem".



Oh sure, when I say "fix it" I get bitched at

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Post #: 28
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 9:42:37 PM   
Admiral Scott


Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		Why not just give us the game with no AI at all, and release the final version later on with an AI, if you ever get it to work that is?

In the mean time, we could be playing the game by e-mail, and reporting any bugs along the way.

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Post #: 29
RE: Project Management - 4/20/2009 9:49:27 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Well 3 reasons being brutally honest

1. that only works if you could get anyone to work on the AI after the game was released as a PBEM only variant -  I am a PBEM junkie so the chances I would devote a fraction of the time I have if it was released and I could actually be playing is pretty low. I would far rather be playing that trying to get the AI working. So if thats my attitude and I am the main AI scripter........

2. Its never been really ready enough

3. Matrix want a product for the whole community not just PBEM so its all or nothing - quite rightly

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Post #: 30
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