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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 9:57:59 PM

Scott_WAR

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There are many excuses why people pirate,....most of them being falsehoods to cover pure and simple greed.

But there are some reasons that need to have some consideration.

1) Easy access. Why would I spend 30 minutes driving around looking for a game, with the gas cost for my car included, chance of having an accident, getting a ticket, wear and tear on my car,....when I can just 'click' and have the game. Direct Download of games is becoming more and more popular, so eventually this wont be a valid 'excuse'

2) Buying crap and Demo's. As mentioned before, no retail outlets allow you to return opened software. Add to that the fact that over the past few years games are slowly being released in worse and worse shape. When there is no demo for a game, you are basically gambling with your money. So many people feel justified in downloading a pirated copy to make sure they will like the game first . THIS IS SOMETHING MATRIX NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND AND START RELEASING DEMO's. Have faith in your game and release a demo for it. To me no demo means the games devs dont want you to see before you buy because the game probably isnt worth buying.

(in reply to Perturabo)

Post #: 31

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 10:08:51 PM

Scott_WAR

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Perturabo- you can preach all you like, there will always be less than honorable people in the world.

Let me ask,...do you leave the door to your home unlocked when you leave? I am sure you dont,...to avoid getting robbed. If you left your door unlocked and got robbed, while it wouldnt excuse the robbers, you would share in some of the responsibility because of leaving your door unlocked. So in my opinion these game developers need to work on a working lock, instead of making half arsed solutions that only hurt the consumer and not the pirates. As long as they dont lock their front door with something besides a paper lock, they share in some of the blame.

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Post #: 32

Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 10:42:10 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Have faith in your game and release a demo for it. To me no demo means the games devs dont want you to see before you buy because the game probably isnt worth buying.

This sounds suspiciously similar to how bad movies are released. Most movies are released to reviews and the media prior to public audiences. However, some open in theatres immediately without this preliminary step. In all cases, these movies turn out to be dogs and the only reason reviewers and media were not allow pre-launch access was the fact that they would have reported just how dreadful the film would turn out to be.

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Post #: 33

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 11:07:42 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

Why exactly would it be bad?

I was meaning libraries would start charging people to "rent" books because of pressure from fat cats...and it would be bad because libraries have already paid for the books (or other people have and donated them to libraries)

Libraries are a great idea...what I'm afraid of is lawyers and publicists and authors all get together (similar to how the music industry works) and starts charging libraries (who pass that charge onto you and I) for the priviledge of "renting" their books....much in the same way as the example I gave about the music industry and not being aloud to play music at work unless work has a licence for it.

Done here...enjoy the rest of the show

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Post #: 34

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 11:30:45 PM

Scott_WAR

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Sadly, the same principle that game developers and music artists 'suffer' from because of pirates can be applied to libraries. Lost sales. If someone pirates a game or a song, the creator of that game or song doesnt get paid for that individual using their product. When a library loans out a book, the person taking it home gets to use it, without the creator of the book getting piad. If 20 people check out a book and read it at the library, thats 20 people who dont have to by the book to read it, and 20 sales the publisher and author of the book dont get.

The argument "If they read the book and like it, they will buy it" or " they will buy other books from the same author" doesnt work. replace read, and book with play and game or listen and music, and its the ame argument many pirates use,....nobody accepts that excuse from pirates, so why should libraries be any different.

Oh wait,......books are good for you,....games and music arent, THAT must be the difference.......................

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 35

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 12:22:39 AM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

But there are some reasons that need to have some consideration.

1) Easy access. Why would I spend 30 minutes driving around looking for a game, with the gas cost for my car included, chance of having an accident, getting a ticket, wear and tear on my car,....when I can just 'click' and have the game. Direct Download of games is becoming more and more popular, so eventually this wont be a valid 'excuse'

Frankly, it sounds like a plain old laziness for me. How it's different from "why should I work to get money for a game if I can have it for free"?

Hey I'll add one more excuse - abandonware.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Perturabo- you can preach all you like, there will always be less than honorable people in the world.

I'm just correcting the misconception that everyone will think and act as dedicated fans who post on fan sites.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

So in my opinion these game developers need to work on a working lock, instead of making half arsed solutions that only hurt the consumer and not the pirates.

Well, they have invented stuff like activations, Steam, etc. and apparently these solutions are the best they can come up with.

Also, note that probably no one has a "working" lock in their house. Most of the doors can be defeated. The problem is that it will take time that it will increase the risk of discovery. And crackers have all the time in the world - they can only be stopped for a few weeks during which the rich hardcore pirates will lose patience and buy the game.

I would rather say that the game publishers already use reinforced doors with advanced locks.

Maybe they should start paying people for turning-in their pirating friends to police or something like that.

Anyway, it's a bit weird to look at everything what happens now. All the DRM stuff, system requirements still rising, hardcore pirates killing off old developers, etc. I'm not really a gamer like I used to be. I spend more time talking on internet than playing.
And when I play, it's usually old games from 90s, like Epic 40000: Final Liberation, Fallout, Jagged Alliance 2. Most of modern games that I'd like to play don't have local distributors and are realistic military simulations which also for some weird reason happen to be sold without printed manuals.
I think the last game I bought was umm... War Plan Orange?
Umm...
About 5 months ago?

I think one day when I'll have enough toner, I'll print its manual and try to master it. Hmm...
165 pages. 165 pages can be used to print enough work to cover the cost of whole toner, so probably a printing game manual doesn't justify using up so much paper. Damn, printing game manuals at home sucks.

Anyway, I think I'll start playing miniature war games or something. I don't really have patience to paint the miniatures, though. I bought several miniatures last year but I undercoated only half of them and painted only one.

Anyway, I think the worst thing about piracy in countries outside the fairyland is that it fails to communicate the fact that the real prices of games/music in work are a total rip-off and create an atmosphere where publishers perceived only as innocent victims of the situation on gaming market created by piracy.
Can you imagine that all the gaming magazines on Polish market led a crusade against piracy, but none of them started a campaign against breaking customer's rights (misinformation, releasing unfinished products and selling them as finished ones, etc.) and against rip-off prices?

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)

Post #: 36

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 12:43:44 AM

Zakhal

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From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Sadly, the same principle that game developers and music artists 'suffer' from because of pirates can be applied to libraries. Lost sales. If someone pirates a game or a song, the creator of that game or song doesnt get paid for that individual using their product. When a library loans out a book, the person taking it home gets to use it, without the creator of the book getting piad. If 20 people check out a book and read it at the library, thats 20 people who dont have to by the book to read it, and 20 sales the publisher and author of the book dont get.

The argument "If they read the book and like it, they will buy it" or " they will buy other books from the same author" doesnt work. replace read, and book with play and game or listen and music, and its the ame argument many pirates use,....nobody accepts that excuse from pirates, so why should libraries be any different.

Oh wait,......books are good for you,....games and music arent, THAT must be the difference.......................

Allthough they do have music and games, libraries have only very limited collections. I cant get matrix games from there, I cant get even mainstream games like fallout3 or mass effect. Id like som good war history books like the one written by saburai sakai but thats not available either. Reason is simple of course - they cant afford everyhing!

The fact that library provides a limited amount of content *all legal and paid for* that general public can loan for few weeks of time is no justification to download i.e newest games free illegally.

The library comparison is nothing new btw. Many other pirates have tried to use it as a justification too. They make all kinds of reasons just to get rid of bad conscience. And worst is they repeat these made-up reasons so many times they actually start to believe in them themselves.

I would seperate movie/music from games though. Bands can make concerts and the costs of making music is not as big as making movies or games. Movies can make money through theatre and TV too. As for games it costs many millions to make them and the only source of revenue is the sales so you cant simply give them away for free.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/20/2009 12:59:25 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 12:59:33 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Allthough they do have music and games, libraries have only very limited collections. I cant get matrix games from there, I cant get even mainstream games like fallout3 or mass effect. Id like som good war history books like the one written by saburai sakai but thats not available either. Reason is simple of course - they cant afford everyhing!

The fact that library provides a limited amount of content *all legal and paid for* that general public can loan for few weeks of time is no justification to download i.e newest games free illegally.

The library comparison is nothing new btw. Many other pirates have tried to use it as a justification too. They make all kinds of reasons just to get rid of bad conscience. And worst is they repeat these made-up reasons so many times they actually start to believe in them themselves.

Maybe you need to search around the history section more. I borrowed a lot of military history books from the library. They also have a full set of Asterix & Obelix comics so I always borrow a few of those too which makes for an eyebrow-raising combination at the book check-out counter. I bought some good books in a shop like that Saburo Sakai book you mentioned. Then I resorted to Amazon to get hardcore military books like Glantz material and some cool eastern front books.

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Korsun Pocket

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Post #: 38

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 1:04:40 AM

Zakhal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer
Maybe you need to search around the history section more. I borrowed a lot of military history books from the library. They also have a full set of Asterix & Obelix comics so I always borrow a few of those too which makes for an eyebrow-raising combination at the book check-out counter. I bought some good books in a shop like that Saburo Sakai book you mentioned. Then I resorted to Amazon to get hardcore military books like Glantz material and some cool eastern front books.

I have used the computer searches on library (should be foolproof) and browsed the history section myself too and its pathetic. The few ww2 books were non-interesting and full of dust (I sneezed).

I dont know about your library but Ive had to buy many books because they simply arent available in library. They can be very pricy though especially the older ones. I guess they dont make much reprints.

I wouldnt mind d/l all the best war history books for free or for som small sum (gotta check amazon prices) and then read them through ebook reader. It doesnt take millions to make them anyways. Books take lots of space so digital form is preferred.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/20/2009 1:14:25 AM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 1:13:59 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer
Maybe you need to search around the history section more. I borrowed a lot of military history books from the library. They also have a full set of Asterix & Obelix comics so I always borrow a few of those too which makes for an eyebrow-raising combination at the book check-out counter. I bought some good books in a shop like that Saburo Sakai book you mentioned. Then I resorted to Amazon to get hardcore military books like Glantz material and some cool eastern front books.

I have used the computer searches on library (should be foolproof) and browsed the history section myself too and its pathetic. The few ww2 books were non-interesting and full of dust (I sneezed).

I dont know about your library but Ive had to buy many books because they simply arent available in library. They can be very pricy though especially the older ones. I guess they dont make much reprints.

Yes very, very pricey. And I had to wait over a year to get all of my order cause the books are so rare. 'Red Storm over the Balkans' by Glantz took the longest to get, like 15 months or so. They are awesome books and I'm still reading through them now about 2 years after getting them. On the bright side when buying military books, you pay a premium for a really good book that is not popular so it needs your support.

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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 2:06:56 AM

Scott_WAR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

The fact that library provides a limited amount of content *all legal and paid for* that general public can loan for few weeks of time is no justification to download i.e newest games free illegally.

I am not trying to justify pirating, I am just pointing out that the REASONS pirating is bad, applies 100% to libraries also. That is people are usisng a product without paying for it. I dont want to do away with libraries, but in alll aspects they are just as guilty of "pirating" as any software pirate out there. They allow people to use a product without paying for it.

We need to be careful where we tread in response to pirating, otherwise these laws that are being passed and enforced my cause libraries and other industries to become criminal orginaizations.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 4/20/2009 2:21:46 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 2:51:26 AM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

THIS IS SOMETHING MATRIX NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND AND START RELEASING DEMO's.� Have faith in your game and release a demo for it. To me no demo means the games devs dont want you to see before you buy because the game probably isnt worth buying.

They do understand it, but there are other issues when it comes to demos for their products. Demos cost time and money to produce that has to be justified by additional sales. Panther, for example, have said they believe the demo for the original Airborne Assault cost them more sales than it gained, not because of any lack of quality or 'faith', but because of scuttlebutt from Joe Public who downloaded a demo for a WW2 game and were expecting something rather different from what they got, and hence what they got was 'crap', or words to that effect. In other words, if a game takes some time to learn how to play the vast majority of demo downloaders just won't bother, and will dismiss the game out of hand. Demos and 'under the hood' are not a good combination.

Think about it. Exactly how many people would buy (say) Harpoon 3 ANW who wouldn't otherwise have bought it on the basis of having spent several hours learning to play, an appreciating the quality of gameplay, as compared with those who take one look at graphics and UI and start trumpeting on forums internet-wide that the game is 'sh*t'?

< Message edited by Hertston -- 4/20/2009 2:53:24 AM >

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Post #: 42

Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 3:01:20 AM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Think about it. Exactly how many people would buy (say) Harpoon 3 ANW who wouldn't otherwise have bought it on the basis of having spent several hours learning to play, an appreciating the quality of gameplay, as compared with those who take one look at graphics and UI and start trumpeting on forums internet-wide that the game is 'sh*t'?

Conversely, look at the demo for the Harpoon Classic Commanders' Edition. Just as many guys probably tried it, said, "This is all right!" and grabbed the game after 30 minutes of trial. The demo is that easy to use and is probably the biggest selling point for HCE.

In the end, it's about happy and satisfied customers. Even though a sale isn't made, no ill will is borne towards the developer and that's the formula for long-term customer loyalty, IMO.

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Post #: 43

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 3:43:58 AM

Scott_WAR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

THIS IS SOMETHING MATRIX NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND AND START RELEASING DEMO's.� Have faith in your game and release a demo for it. To me no demo means the games devs dont want you to see before you buy because the game probably isnt worth buying.

They do understand it, but there are other issues when it comes to demos for their products. Demos cost time and money to produce that has to be justified by additional sales. Panther, for example, have said they believe the demo for the original Airborne Assault cost them more sales than it gained, not because of any lack of quality or 'faith', but because of scuttlebutt from Joe Public who downloaded a demo for a WW2 game and were expecting something rather different from what they got, and hence what they got was 'crap', or words to that effect. In other words, if a game takes some time to learn how to play the vast majority of demo downloaders just won't bother, and will dismiss the game out of hand. Demos and 'under the hood' are not a good combination.

Think about it. Exactly how many people would buy (say) Harpoon 3 ANW who wouldn't otherwise have bought it on the basis of having spent several hours learning to play, an appreciating the quality of gameplay, as compared with those who take one look at graphics and UI and start trumpeting on forums internet-wide that the game is 'sh*t'?

Anytime a person who DOESNT like a certain type of game tries it, they are naturally going to dislike it. Not becasue its a bad game, but becasue it isnt their type of game.

Whats important is that the demo accurately portrays the game. Take Sword of the Stars for example. The first demo released for it was just short of terrible. They released another, much improved demo, and many people are now finding out what a good game it actually is.

Almost every demo I have tried that I liked I have bought,.......and that FAR exceeds the number of bad demos I have tried and avoided a game because of. So in my opinion its very simple, if you have a good game, release a good demo and it WILL help sales, dont release a demo and it WILL cost sales.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 4/20/2009 3:47:30 AM >

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Post #: 44

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 7:08:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

I am just pointing out that the REASONS pirating is bad, applies 100% to libraries also. That is people are usisng a product without paying for it.

Flaw in your analogy and/or logic... libraries are not free.

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Post #: 45

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 8:30:55 AM

Scott_WAR

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I have been to many libraries, checked out many books,...and have yet to pay one single penny for any of them,....so yeah,...it is free to use the public library.

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Post #: 46

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 9:47:56 AM

Zakhal

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From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

I have been to many libraries, checked out many books,...and have yet to pay one single penny for any of them,....so yeah,...it is free to use the public library.

Do you think all those books just appeared form thin air? I actually had a talk with real library worker about this comparison and he didnt agree with it at all.

Sounds like the piratebay boys are a bit bitter:

quote:

Speaking at an online press conference, he described the verdict as "bizarre".

"It's serious to actually be found guilty and get jail time. It's really serious. And that's a bit weird," Sunde said.

"It's so bizarre that we were convicted at all and it's even more bizarre that we were [convicted] as a team. The court said we were organised. I can't get Gottfrid out of bed in the morning. If you're going to convict us, convict us of disorganised crime.

"We can't pay and we wouldn't pay. Even if I had the money I would rather burn everything I owned, and I wouldn't even give them the ashes."

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Post #: 47

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 10:19:01 AM

Scott_WAR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

I have been to many libraries, checked out many books,...and have yet to pay one single penny for any of them,....so yeah,...it is free to use the public library.

Do you think all those books just appeared form thin air? I actually had a talk with real library worker about this comparison and he didnt agree with it at all.

Sounds like the piratebay boys are a bit bitter:

quote:

Speaking at an online press conference, he described the verdict as "bizarre".

"It's serious to actually be found guilty and get jail time. It's really serious. And that's a bit weird," Sunde said.

"It's so bizarre that we were convicted at all and it's even more bizarre that we were [convicted] as a team. The court said we were organised. I can't get Gottfrid out of bed in the morning. If you're going to convict us, convict us of disorganised crime.

"We can't pay and we wouldn't pay. Even if I had the money I would rather burn everything I owned, and I wouldn't even give them the ashes."

Of course he wouldnt agree......

and yeah those books were paid for by the library or donated. So if I buy a game, or have it donated to me then I wouldnt be a pirate if I allowed it to be used by many for free?

Keep in mind I am NOT advocating libraries being changed in any way. I am NOT saying pirating is the same as a library. The INTENT is completely different. However the law has a hard time with intent. Usually the courts care very little about intent when a LAW is broken.

At the heart of the issue is "lost sales". When someone can use a product that is sold for profit, without paying, that is a "lost sale". It doesnt matter whether you are talking about music, games, books, or any product that is sold for profit.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 4/20/2009 10:29:06 AM >

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Post #: 48

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 10:26:26 AM

Zakhal

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From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Of course he wouldnt agree......

and yeah those books were paid for by the library or donated. So if I buy a game, or have it donated to me then I wouldnt be a pirate if I allowed it to be used by many for free?

Im sure you can loan your game as long as you dont make copies from it. You can make som amount of copies from library movies, games and music as long as there is no DRM but they actually pay for privilege. Thats how it is here atleast..

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/20/2009 10:29:48 AM >

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Post #: 49

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 10:31:56 AM

Scott_WAR

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The game industry went after the game rental industry years ago.........and lost. I am going to see if I can find out exaclty what happened there. I have a feeling it may be relevant to this argument :)

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Post #: 50

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 10:50:48 AM

Scott_WAR

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Hmmm, maybe it was the movie industry that went after them,........ I dont remember. But I think, not sure, that it came down to ownership,....as long as it was the original copy of the game/movie, you could use it as you wish including making a profit from renting it. As long as you arent making copies of the original and profiting from them. Further the rental companies could not be held liable if their customers made illegal copies. Havent found any info yet, but gonna keep looking.

The EULA in any PC game basically says you DONT own this game, you are jsut paying for a license to use it. Therefore you dont own it, and cant do with it as you wish.

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Post #: 51

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 10:53:19 AM

Scott_WAR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Im sure you can loan your game as long as you dont make copies from it. You can make som amount of copies from library movies, games and music as long as there is no DRM but they actually pay for privilege. Thats how it is here atleast..

Heh, digital loaning................

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Post #: 52

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 11:08:52 AM

Scott_WAR

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Of course he wouldnt agree......

and yeah those books were paid for by the library or donated. So if I buy a game, or have it donated to me then I wouldnt be a pirate if I allowed it to be used by many for free?

Im sure you can loan your game as long as you dont make copies from it. You can make som amount of copies from library movies, games and music as long as there is no DRM but they actually pay for privilege. Thats how it is here atleast..

In fact some games (MMO's) actually say in their EULA that you can never let anyone else use your account, and that you cant sell your account to someone else. Since the game has a key which ties it to your account, you cant sale the game legally much less loan it to someone,.....according to the EULA.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 4/20/2009 11:09:23 AM >

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Post #: 53

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 11:56:35 AM

Perturabo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

I am just pointing out that the REASONS pirating is bad, applies 100% to libraries also. That is people are usisng a product without paying for it.

Flaw in your analogy and/or logic... libraries are not free.

No. It only shows that the libraries in your country are either:
a. Getting money for buying new books and paying their employees - which is exactly the behaviour of Pirate Bay.
b. Paying royalities to the authors/publishers, which would mean that they agree with my point.

Traditionally, libraries are free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Allthough they do have music and games, libraries have only very limited collections. I cant get matrix games from there, I cant get even mainstream games like fallout3 or mass effect.

It would be weird if there were games in libraries, because gaming licences usually strictly forbid renting them or often even borrowing them to a friend.
Similarly, movies and music are forbidden to rent, unless one acquires a license. Which is why people have to pay for borrowing movies, even in a library.
There's a funny thing about movie rentals.
I used to rent a lot of movies, but I have stopped completely. Why? Because 9/10 of DVDs in every rental in my city are so damaged that they don't display correctly a part of a movie. It's paying for borrowing a barely viewable movie.
On the other hand books in a library usually allow a full reading experience.

The only form of movie rental that makes sense is renting in digital form, for example by an internet TV provider. Otherwise it's just a waste of money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Id like som good war history books like the one written by saburai sakai but thats not available either. Reason is simple of course - they cant afford everyhing!

Well, I have 7 libraries in city centre alone

. I can easily walk into them and get most of the books I want. There's a fantasy/sci-fi library that has more titles than most of stores. The same thing can be said about the history section in one of the other libraries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

The fact that library provides a limited amount of content *all legal and paid for* that general public can loan for few weeks of time is no justification to download i.e newest games free illegally.

Yes, but it is no justification for using the libraries and not buying books either

. It's exactly as hardcore piracy.
Which is why it feels so awesome

. Going to a library and browsing the shelves in search for books to "steal" feels good

. It's like stealing a candy from a kiddie

. It feels like stopping a car in GTA, dragging it's owner outside, stealing a car and then driving over him, leaving a red tire prints and then smashing into an ambulance

.

And you know what's the most awesome thing? You can go to a publishers forum and brag about how you are reading their books for free and about how you'd have to pay for them if there weren't libraries

. You can also mention how it saved you money that you have spent on music/computer games

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

I would seperate movie/music from games though. Bands can make concerts and the costs of making music is not as big as making movies or games. Movies can make money through theatre and TV too. As for games it costs many millions to make them and the only source of revenue is the sales so you cant simply give them away for free.

So, for example if someone sells indie games (music CDs) and still has a second job (concerts), it's OK to pirate his games?
Also, who will go to theatres if everyone would download movies? Who would pay for ads for movies that no one watches in TV?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

I actually had a talk with real library worker about this comparison and he didnt agree with it at all.

Of course they don't agree

. Funny thing - when my friend librarian learned that I'm actually buying books, she told me:
"Why buy books? You can read them in our library for free and save money for other things."
Doesn't it sound familiar?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

THIS IS SOMETHING MATRIX NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND AND START RELEASING DEMO's. Have faith in your game and release a demo for it. To me no demo means the games devs dont want you to see before you buy because the game probably isnt worth buying.

They do understand it, but there are other issues when it comes to demos for their products. Demos cost time and money to produce that has to be justified by additional sales. Panther, for example, have said they believe the demo for the original Airborne Assault cost them more sales than it gained, not because of any lack of quality or 'faith', but because of scuttlebutt from Joe Public who downloaded a demo for a WW2 game and were expecting something rather different from what they got, and hence what they got was 'crap', or words to that effect.

Well, it only means that they have made an informed choice based on comparing their experience with the demo with their own preferences. Would it be any better if they have bought it and then discovered that it's a game made for someone else?
Maybe for Panther, but certainly not for the gamers.

As for justification by more sales. Personally, I almost never buy games that I can't try out, unless they are in sales bin.
I have learned it hard way. I don't trust reviews by magazines and I don't trust reviews by other gamers.
The worst thing is that a game can get very enthusiastic reviews telling how awesome it is and then turn out to be average and very poor when compared to some other games in the same genre.
For example Baldur's Gate - I bought it after playing Fallout and it was basically a waste of money. It was an obsolete design when compared to games like Fallout and Ultima VII and had many flaws that the reviewers somehow forgot to mention.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

In other words, if a game takes some time to learn how to play the vast majority of demo downloaders just won't bother, and will dismiss the game out of hand. Demos and 'under the hood' are not a good combination.

Frankly, taking in account that 3/4 or rather 9/10 of these games don't have an in-game tutorials and don't come with a printed manuals, this kind of reaction is completely justified.
Hell, even shooters come with in-game tutorials to the point where they insult the gamer's intelligence, but games where external help in learning how to play them is absolutely necessary don't? It's simply wrong. It's like developers are doing everything to keep new players from getting into hardcore strategy games.

I have to admit that the demo of Airborne Assault has really impressed me, though. Too bad it doesn't have and won't have a local publisher.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/20/2009 12:01:23 PM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 1:58:25 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Of course he wouldnt agree......

and yeah those books were paid for by the library or donated. So if I buy a game, or have it donated to me then I wouldnt be a pirate if I allowed it to be used by many for free?

Im sure you can loan your game as long as you dont make copies from it. You can make som amount of copies from library movies, games and music as long as there is no DRM but they actually pay for privilege. Thats how it is here atleast..

In fact some games (MMO's) actually say in their EULA that you can never let anyone else use your account, and that you cant sell your account to someone else. Since the game has a key which ties it to your account, you cant sale the game legally much less loan it to someone,.....according to the EULA.

Yeah there are exceptions. Thats why I dont like services like steam.

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Post #: 55

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 8:19:13 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
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Actually, most of games forbide borrowing, renting or even reselling in EULA...
Since the dawn of time.
DRM systems only execute it.

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Post #: 56

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 8:58:37 PM

Widell

Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollh�ttan, Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Actually, most of games forbide borrowing, renting or even reselling in EULA...
Since the dawn of time.
DRM systems only execute it.

You are right. One major difference between software and books/music is that you, normally, don't buy the software, you [buy a license to use the software. This is also true for "free" software like Open Source since the GPL is, you guesses it, a license. Most licenses (EULA) have really tough restrictions, but obviously it has been hard for the software providers to monitor the usage of the granted licenses. This has, to some extent, changed with the recent systems mentioned above, and the reaction from the (vocal part) of the community has been mostly negative.

As for piracy, which is by law equal to stealing something in most places, nothing has changed from the days of cassette recorders, vinyl records and "mixed tapes" from late night radio of VHS tapes from MTV videos. Well, the internet did change the scale of the access to stuff to copy, but there were cases where the music industry wanted to ban cassettes, and in Sweden (land of incredible taxes, I know, but I like my country anyway ;-) we have a "penalty" tax on CD-RW's that collects money to the music industry for the copies of their music that is being distributed without generating direct revenues to them. Same for cassettes and video tapes back in those days, and I assume this is true also for DVD-RW's.

Now, this is no excuse for violating the laws governing IP rights, but both the industry and the hardcore pro-piracy people need to accept it will take some time to get new business models in place that takes steps in technology into account. But hey, didn't I just install some Open Source software that lets me record streaming radio/media? Maybe I can load my cell phone with a "mixed C90" of cool music

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Post #: 57

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 10:15:10 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

You are right. One major difference between software and books/music is that you, normally, don't buy the software, you [buy a license to use the software.

Which is only because the software designers took extra effort to hammer the point with a wall of text. Copyright notices on music/videos almost always state that "copying, renting and broadcasting" without a written permission from the producer are forbidden. Which means that effectively, it's not very different from the software licenses.

Also, software producers usually have to use the "license" to shield themselves from funny things like responsibility for selling unfinished products (taking in account that when it happens, every copy is bugged/unfinished - it could end with losing most of income) and any technical problems caused by them (they are very rare, but they do happen and paying for damages to hundreds or thousands of customers is not fun - Pool of Radiance 2, anyone?).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

Most licenses (EULA) have really tough restrictions, but obviously it has been hard for the software providers to monitor the usage of the granted licenses. This has, to some extent, changed with the recent systems mentioned above, and the reaction from the (vocal part) of the community has been mostly negative.

It's funny that the people suddenly woke up and started saying that licences are wrong only when they have became enforceable.
Couldn't they, like disagree with them earlier?
After all, games aren't necessary for life.

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Post #: 58

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 10:31:34 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Actually, most of games forbide borrowing, renting or even reselling in EULA...
Since the dawn of time.
DRM systems only execute it.

Most games since the dawn of time? Ebay is full of old games. Are you saying that i.e original steel panthers had EULA which said that you cant sell/borrow it? You most be j/k.

Even then I dont know what this has to do with piracy? Are you trying to defend piracy with the fact that people have broken EULAs since the dawn of time by selling their games in ebay or borrowing them to their friends? Even if that is true (in som limited cases) you are still really grasping the straws here man.

This just show the extreme lengths that pirates go to "defend" their hobby. Common sense and reality is quickly forgotten. If braking EULAs was a big thing they wouldnt allow selling old games in ebay/amazon (I have bought tons from there). But of course such "reasoning" should not be allowed since it doesnt support piracy.

Ive had hundreds of debates with pirates and its an endless merry go around. The excuses just keep popping up one after another. Pretty much pointless waste of time to actually take part into it.

If you cant afford games and pirate them because of that its okay, but do you also have to make up all these "clever" excuses for it? I mean really?

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/20/2009 10:56:24 PM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/20/2009 11:04:42 PM

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

I have been to many libraries, checked out many books,...and have yet to pay one single penny for any of them,....so yeah,...it is free to use the public library.

I find it hard to believe you've never paid any taxes.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)

Post #: 60