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Non-Smokers in Finland? - 5/20/2002 8:29:58 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		I've mentioned before that GE ski troops don't have mine-clearing ability, and that was explained to me why that doesn't occur, because they can't dismount (though I swear I've seen Cossacks clear mines - not sure), but they also aren't supplied with smoke grenades.

Well, I've played as the USSR against Finland on at least 4 occassions since V7.1 and not a single foot unit of them has any smoke grenades, because they never display that very annoying tendency to smoke for virtually every hex they retreat from.
Post #: 1
- 5/20/2002 10:58:41 PM   
learnerever

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 5/18/2002
Status: offline 		coninuing this on this topic...

I been meaning to ask if there really so many smoke
grenades among troops of different countries as there
is in SPWAW in WWII anyways ?

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 2
- 5/21/2002 1:17:28 AM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by learnerever
[B]coninuing this on this topic...

I been meaning to ask if there really so many smoke
grenades among troops of different countries as there
is in SPWAW in WWII anyways ? [/B][/QUOTE]

Personally, I think the smoke is overdone for most units. I've often cut back on smoke grenades in scenarios I design.

_____________________________

Retreat is NOT an option.



(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 3
- 5/21/2002 2:55:29 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		A bit of a follow-up and expansion. While I knew the Finns weren't using smoke on retreats, I wasn't sure if they came supplied with them or not. I loaded up a generated campaign with every conceivable 1/40 foot unit I could, and the units you would expect have them, do, so why doesn't the AI huff-and-puff like so many other nationalities do?

On the subject of the semi-strange I'll relate the following. In V7.1 I've played approximately 20 battles in various campaigns, mostly as either the USSR or GE. In at least half those missions I was the aggressor and maybe 7 of the battles regardless of who was attacking, were assaults.

What you're looking at here, since I'm always playing the WWII campaign is that the opponents are either the Finns or the Pols, although I have fought 2 battles against the FR and 2 against the Brits. In all those battles I think I got air support as a possiblity once, though I have seen the AI pick once as Finn air and another as Pol air. I even had a 6/41 GE battle assaulting where I had no air. I haven't tampered with the air sections settings either. It looks like the Germans have to attack Luxembourg to get air support. I don't exactly expect it of the early war Soviets even if they are attacking, but surely not the artillery from the air the Germans used them as.

If I ever battle in the late war years, I do wonder also if the US starts getting swarms of air sections and if my then flakvierlings will even register a hit, because I recall someone doing tests on these AA mounts and it wasn't encouraging. I played a war video today from The Great Fighting Machines of World War 2 which mentioned the flakvierling and it said,
quote:

This weapon was very effective against low firing fighter-bombers and could also be deployed against ground targets. It's hail of 800 rounds per minute, being absolutely devastating.


Oh well, imperfections all, I just hope CL gets these straight.

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 4
- 5/21/2002 3:57:43 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		From everything Ive read infantry never used smoke anyways so I dont find this to be that big of a loss.

_____________________________


(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 5
- 5/21/2002 6:47:42 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Fallschirmjager: Well in that case the problem is larger, the units are smoking far too much, while the Finns are correct.

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 6
- 5/21/2002 3:12:40 PM   
Commander

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		With my knowledge (Ihave read lot) about fins army: during WWII fins squad normally didn't carry smoke grenades, only in special missions.
If we need smoke we usually use artillery or "smoke box" it was not a grenade it was bigger.
Any comments from fins?

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 7
- 5/21/2002 3:48:17 PM   
Fredde

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Goteborg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Finnish Ski troops (probably the others as well) have some errors which make them much less usable than other comparable infantry, while in reality, it should be the other way around. What you can do on foot, you can do with skiis on your feet, at least if you are somewhat trained in the use of them This includes close-assaulting vehicles, clearing mines etc. In the game, these abilities are not there. Even horse cavalry can perform these maneuvers in the game. Same problems with Finnish bicycle troops, they cannot occupy buildings etc and have a very decreased mobility.

That they don't carry smoke grenades is historically correct. This doesn't mean that the other units carrying smoke _is_ historically correct. Finnish ski troops are ordinary infantry units who has skiis in their equipment. Therefore, part from the skiis, equipment and weaponry should be the same. For game-play issues, I always give Finnish ski units smoke to make them comparable to other units.. historically, the smoke should probably be removed from the units.. it's pretty unrealistic anyway to be able to hide away behind an impenetrable smoke curtain emanating from infantry smoke grenades (debated many times before on this forum).

These problems has led to that I (almost) never use ski troops and jaegers as they are in my scenarios. I take ordinary infantry and modify them instead.

_____________________________

"If infantry is the Queen of the battlefield, artillery is her backbone", Jukka L. Mäkelä about the Finnish victory at Ihantala.

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 8
- 5/21/2002 4:29:13 PM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Matrix has said that infantry smoke is un historical its one the things CL will fix.


there are 1000's of things wrong with the game

something good to remember is a quote from the CM manual

ill parapharse since I dont want to walk the 10 feet to grab it


No game will ever be 100% accurate 100% of the time.


SpWaW is about 1% accurate and all games out now are

Little things like smoke dont bother me that much.

_____________________________


(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 9
- 5/21/2002 4:39:53 PM   
Fredde

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Goteborg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Very true. Although this doesn't prevent gamers from debating "small things" like infantry smoke forever and ever :D

_____________________________

"If infantry is the Queen of the battlefield, artillery is her backbone", Jukka L. Mäkelä about the Finnish victory at Ihantala.

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 10
- 5/21/2002 5:15:20 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Charles, 'vierlings are devastating!

See thread in Opponents Wanted, vs. Hellcat - He had a LaGG-3 fly over two of my vierlings and they nailed that sucker! :D :D

And if you don't have flyers to aim at, they really are excellent at long-range vs. infantry and even AFV's

_____________________________


Got StuG?

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 11
- 5/21/2002 8:19:03 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Belisarius:
quote:

See thread in Opponents Wanted, vs. Hellcat - He had a LaGG-3 fly over two of my vierlings and they nailed that sucker!


Well that is very nice, only I do recall a thread where it was tested among other AA mounts and was doing fairly miserably. I just had the Finns air-attack my USSR force yesterday again. So now I've had 2 Finn air-attacks against the USSR and one Pol air-attack against GE, compared to my one opportunity to buy air support as GE. Of course my general 8-10 AA core units haven't scratched a single plane.

If the flakvierlings can do more than get the odd occassional lucky hit, they might be half reliable if I can somehow get my crews to 100+ experience on the way to that timeframe.

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 12
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