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France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 3:25:37 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Hello Marshall:

This is a rather big issue that, I think could be easily mitigated:

Currently, the order of Frances's Land Movement is revealed upon entry in the reinforcement phase. This allows naval powers to make a much more effective use of combined naval-corps movement as the naval power (usually GB) will know that he can disembark his corps without fear of France's land army coming to pound him.

May seem minor, but this is a big advantage, particularly when combined with the fact that ships now enter a port from the blockade box immediately upon the seizure of this port. So a GB army can land and evacuate before France has the chance to react. This is very different from the board game(s) where LAND ORDER WAS CHOSEN IN THE LAND MOVEMENT PHASE.

Suggested Solution: Do not announce the order of the land movement (REMOVE IT FROM THE LOG) and have the French land movement just pop up at some point in the land phase. Solves the problem and keeps the suspense, which shoudl add to the vigor of this game/make it more exciting as you will never quite know when the ogre will wake up.

Can you squeak this into 1.06? Should not be too hard to remove a log entry.

Thanks
Mardonius
Post #: 1
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 4:02:39 PM   
DCWhitworth


Posts: 676
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: Norwich, England
Status: offline 		That would not be a solution it would be a work around. Normally France would like to move last so this will merely make Britains ventures a little chancier.

Another issue is that France's land move order (And GB's naval) is only announced if it is changed, thus one has to remember from turn to turn when they are moving if they haven't changed.

_____________________________

Regards
David

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 2
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 4:08:11 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		That is true David, as it forces the French choice before the GB naval move. But is a marked improvement on what we have now, no?

The only onther option I see is to Change the selection of Land Order Movement to the Land Phase. This has the drawback of requiring an extra "Ghost" French land phase wherein it choses only to move or not to move first, but I believe that this solution is the preferred solution for improving the spirit and balance of the game.


See Mantis 504

(in reply to DCWhitworth)
Post #: 3
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 4:31:35 PM   
Trax

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 1/29/2008
Status: offline 		If we are to go down this road, the GB announcement of naval phase movement order should also be removed from the log. Players can learn the turn order during the naval and land phases by checking the turn order sequence at the top of the screen.

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 4
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 5:43:41 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		To be true to the EIA rules, the decision should be done at the beginning of the naval and land movement steps. As a compromise, I suspect, it's in reinforcement. GB's naval move order should be known at the beginning of the naval movement step, which just happens to coincide with the end of the reinforcement phase.

So, I think GB's naval order should be announced at the end of the reinforcement phase or the beginning of the naval phase (whichever is easier to code). France's should be declared at the beginning of the land phase. Both can be (secretly) set during reinforcement. This is a compromise, though; a purist can validly argue for having a "ghost French land phase".

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Post #: 5
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 5:46:06 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		On the other hand, don't forget the very large penalty that GB has (vs. the original rules): GB goes early in the reinforcement phase, but her naval reinforcements should come last.

If the movement order is changed, GB should have "secret" naval reinforcements, revealed only at the end of the reinforcement phase (probably at the same time as naval movement order is announced).

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

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Post #: 6
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 5:48:05 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Just hide both movement announcements and I will be happy as I won't let the pefect be the enemy of the good as far as improvements go..

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 7
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 6:03:47 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Just hide both movement announcements and I will be happy as I won't let the pefect be the enemy of the good as far as improvements go..


Yeah, this seems the to be the best approach. Have France and GB select their turn order in the reinforcement phase, but do not announce the order in the log until the first players plays their naval phase and land phase. Thus, the log would show GB's choice of turn order just before the play of the first nations naval phase and France's choice of turn order just before the first land phase. Keeping the information hidden until the start of each phase shouldn't be that difficult to implement (I hope).

Ted

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 8
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 6:38:50 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		I dont agree, for the rytm of the game it works fine as it is, and it should be announced each reinf-phase not only when changed.

France has alot of advantages as it currently is.

France knows all about who lend corps/fleets etc when he decides his move order, while GB does not.
The GB-naval invasion scenario you talk about is of minor effect against a good French player.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 9
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/16/2009 7:15:53 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh
France knows all about who lend corps/fleets etc when he decides his move order, while GB does not.

Yes, this is what I was trying to point out by the second post: France and GB both lost "something" in the transition to EIANW. However, this correction only helps France; the correction makes no difference to GB (or, very little).

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 10
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/17/2009 8:19:57 AM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh
France knows all about who lend corps/fleets etc when he decides his move order, while GB does not.

Yes, this is what I was trying to point out by the second post: France and GB both lost "something" in the transition to EIANW. However, this correction only helps France; the correction makes no difference to GB (or, very little).


There are more reasons why France has more advantages in this game than normal.
Russia 1-3rd corps and guard corps reduced.
Austria 2 less depots.
The not able to add minors to a kingdom(especially hurts Turkey for OE) as well as the way Poland works(Prussia can not create poland and then give it to an ally).

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 11
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/17/2009 4:38:39 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh

There are more reasons why France has more advantages in this game than normal.
Russia 1-3rd corps and guard corps reduced.
Austria 2 less depots.
The not able to add minors to a kingdom(especially hurts Turkey for OE) as well as the way Poland works(Prussia can not create poland and then give it to an ally).

Regards
Bresh


Not to beat a dead horse, but add to French advantages:
Lack of an effective mechanism for combined movement to combat French aggression.
Increased French OOB (X - XII Corps increased in strength)

Although the editor coming out will allow many changes to take place with the game, I don't think it will be able to alter the fundamental flow of the game (as in the underlying mechanisms by which this game functions), so these flaws in game mechanics will persist until Marshall corrects them.

Cheers,

Ted

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 12
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/17/2009 6:17:37 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		By the way, I'm not saying "don't do it" simply because it's unfair to GB (or, whatever). But, if implemented, players need to know that they should consider raising their bids for France and lowering them for GB, that's all.

The game is always automatically balanced for human players who are around the same level of skill. Just add or subtract from the bid.

Well, as long as the group doesn't use the GAP, that is. The GAP artificially caps the French bid at 30, a number which is far too low for a mildly experienced player.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 13
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/18/2009 12:48:31 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ted1066


quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh

There are more reasons why France has more advantages in this game than normal.
Russia 1-3rd corps and guard corps reduced.
Austria 2 less depots.
The not able to add minors to a kingdom(especially hurts Turkey for OE) as well as the way Poland works(Prussia can not create poland and then give it to an ally).

Regards
Bresh


Not to beat a dead horse, but add to French advantages:
Lack of an effective mechanism for combined movement to combat French aggression.
Increased French OOB (X - XII Corps increased in strength)

Although the editor coming out will allow many changes to take place with the game, I don't think it will be able to alter the fundamental flow of the game (as in the underlying mechanisms by which this game functions), so these flaws in game mechanics will persist until Marshall corrects them.

Cheers,

Ted


Kinda in the same area(combined movement), but another French advantage is the lack of allies able to pay supply(using their depots), without needing to lend the corps.

Also big FR+GB advantage, they can not loose their dominant status.

Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 4/19/2009 8:02:33 AM >

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 14
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 2:53:30 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I'm kind of on the fence here guys??? I don't mind making changes but exlpain to me again why France's announcement should be hidden???


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 15
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 3:02:31 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		In the board games, Land Movement Order was chosen in the Land Movement. Land Movement comes AFTER Naval Movement.

In our game, Land Movement is chosen during the Reinforcment Phase. Reinforcement comes BEFORE Naval movement.

So, Great Britain (for example) can now conduct amphibious operations (with embark troops) knowing the order that France will move and hit targets without any risk of a French response. This gives GB an advantage in chosing where and when to strike in Sea-Land Operations.

Previously, GB would have had to commit to an amphibious operation and France could have adjusted its land move to give it a much more effective response to the assault.

By hiding land movement order changes, Great Britain (again, for example) will not know when the French will respond.

I hope this clears it up. I am glad to call you on the line and talk this over if you send me your number to varick (underscore) ready at yahoo dot com.

best
Mardonius

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 16
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 3:16:28 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

In the board games, Land Movement Order was chosen in the Land Movement. Land Movement comes AFTER Naval Movement.

In our game, Land Movement is chosen during the Reinforcment Phase. Reinforcement comes BEFORE Naval movement.

So, Great Britain (for example) can now conduct amphibious operations (with embark troops) knowing the order that France will move and hit targets without any risk of a French response. This gives GB an advantage in chosing where and when to strike in Sea-Land Operations.

Previously, GB would have had to commit to an amphibious operation and France could have adjusted its land move to give it a much more effective response to the assault.

By hiding land movement order changes, Great Britain (again, for example) will not know when the French will respond.

I hope this clears it up. I am glad to call you on the line and talk this over if you send me your number to varick (underscore) ready at yahoo dot com.

best
Mardonius


Absolutely agree!!

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 17
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 3:51:08 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Got it.
I'm not sure if we can make this in 1.06 but will look.


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 18
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 4:40:18 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Got it.
I'm not sure if we can make this in 1.06 but will look.



Please dont.

France has as described to many advantages compared to the original game as it is. And you would shift it further.

Fix those and then you can look into changing when France selects land-move order, otherwise France gets yet 1 more big advantage to the lot.

Also fix combats as prior described any combats, be it "single corps-defending" or naval-port breaks etc should require file-exchange and rolls not shown on the pc, that actually rolls it.

Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 4/20/2009 4:41:50 PM >

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 19
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 4:45:56 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Bresh:

I would ask you to put forward any changes that you think should be made based on the individual merits of that issue rather than making broad statements concerning imbalance in the game.

If you put forward individual changes with their merits open to criticism, then we can make valid improvements. To say don't make a valid improvement because of other issues that could themselves be fixed or tossed out if vetted is a dubious and fundamentally flawed approached.

Thank you
Mardonius

_____________________________

"Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant" -- James Madison
"Yes, you will win most battles, but if you loose to me you will loose oh so badly that it causes me pain (chortle) just to think of it" - P. Khan

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 20
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 7:13:30 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Don't do it in 1.06. CONSIDER it for the future, though.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 21
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 8:18:42 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Why would you not want to do it Jimmer?
Please be specific lest I will take you out to the woodshed for some schooling.

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 22
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 9:35:07 PM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Mardonius, as not only myself have pointed out, the game is currently heavily unbalanced with many added advantages to France, that they did not have in EIA.

My reason is that your proposed change while "propper EIA", would increase this unbalance.
Fix the described unbalance reasons, and then after I would agree that France should need the "ability" back for balance, but NOT before.

In adition to this, you also need to introduce Naval-reinforcephase, at the current condition GB is penalized, you can not only adjust the game for France and leave out GB.


Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 4/20/2009 10:36:40 PM >

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 23
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/20/2009 11:14:39 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Bresh:

Respectfully, I don't agree with either your conclusion that France is over-powerful (I think GB has the advantage) nor your method of abbrogating any individual improvements that might improve France's position. I suggest that a better means might be found by advocating individual points that you feel favor France too much.

best
Mardonius

_____________________________

"Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant" -- James Madison
"Yes, you will win most battles, but if you loose to me you will loose oh so badly that it causes me pain (chortle) just to think of it" - P. Khan

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 24
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/21/2009 4:30:13 AM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Why would you not want to do it Jimmer?
Please be specific lest I will take you out to the woodshed for some schooling.

Because 1.06 is already late. We don't need more things to muck it up any further.

Software development needs cutoff dates that are NOT violated. Matrix doesn't seem to understand that, and it shows.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 25
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/21/2009 8:38:17 AM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Bresh:

Respectfully, I don't agree with either your conclusion that France is over-powerful (I think GB has the advantage) nor your method of abbrogating any individual improvements that might improve France's position. I suggest that a better means might be found by advocating individual points that you feel favor France too much.

best
Mardonius


Mardonius with all respect to.
The list is not a feeling, they are factual.

Like also Jimmer agrees
quote:


Yes, this is what I was trying to point out by the second post: France and GB both lost "something" in the transition to EIANW. However, this correction only helps France; the correction makes no difference to GB (or, very little).


Or do you belive these dont affect Fr/GB mostly French benefits in the game, compared to EIA ?

FR+GB advantage: They can not loose their dominant status.
French advantage : Lack of an effective mechanism for combined movement to combat French aggression, and the lack of allies able to
pay supply(using their depots), without needing to lend the corps.
French advantage : Increased French OOB (X - XII Corps increased in strength)
French advantage : Decreased Russia OOB 1-3rd corps and guard corps reduced in strength.
French advantage : Austria 2 less depots.
PR advantage : Increased OOB of GD corps.
AU advantage : Increased OOb of Grenadier corps.

Im not saying France is overpowerfull, but he has gained more benefits than other nations.

The order of setting land/naval movement affects GB as much as France in the current setting, you want to add one advantage to France but leave out the required change to GB-naval pick ? Dont view this only with French-Glasses.

We will now get naval changes in 1.06, as far as i understand, naval-evasion is comming and "cheaper-faster ship build", as far as i can tell, only beta-testers can guess on how this affects the game, but such changes might put back the naval-balance from EIA.

Regards
Bresh







< Message edited by bresh -- 4/21/2009 8:43:01 AM >

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 26
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/21/2009 12:19:49 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		Hi Bresh:


I do not disagree with your argument that certain aspects favor the French and though I would have to review the below I am pretty confident that your observations may be correct in each instance. I would exhort you, however, to try and fix these particular issues rather than try and undo another fix that is valid unto itself.

As a follow on point, your list is not comprehensive (which would be impossible anyway, so no finger pointing from me on this) and omits aspects that hurt the French, most grievously the blockade box auto port seizure that allows fleets from the blockade box to automatically move into the port upon seizure of the port by friendly land forces. This, combined with the land order movement revelations mentioned above, really kick France in the loins.

So, my point is: fix each problem in itself; don't stop others from fixing problems because of perceived other issues.

Is that fair and just? I think so.

Best
Mardonius


_____________________________

"Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant" -- James Madison
"Yes, you will win most battles, but if you loose to me you will loose oh so badly that it causes me pain (chortle) just to think of it" - P. Khan

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 27
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/21/2009 12:20:01 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Why would you not want to do it Jimmer?
Please be specific lest I will take you out to the woodshed for some schooling.

Because 1.06 is already late. We don't need more things to muck it up any further.

Software development needs cutoff dates that are NOT violated. Matrix doesn't seem to understand that, and it shows.



Hi Jimmer:

Conceptually, I have to agree with you.

But let me ask you something: How hard is it to eliminate a log entry? Should be one line of script and this script omission should have no secondary effects as we are dealing with a text input. Should take about 5 minutes, if one is slow.

I guess I took more woodshed perspective to your CONSIDER remark as this change seems ipso facto meritorious.
So I guess I will see you out back if you still want words.

best
Madonius



< Message edited by Mardonius -- 4/21/2009 12:23:21 PM >

_____________________________

"Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant" -- James Madison
"Yes, you will win most battles, but if you loose to me you will loose oh so badly that it causes me pain (chortle) just to think of it" - P. Khan

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 28
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/21/2009 1:03:39 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Hey guys:

We are late with 1.06 so this will not fall into 1.06 at this time. Jimmer is right! We are taking too long on 1.06!


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 29
RE: France Land Movement Order Announcement - 4/21/2009 5:47:45 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Marshall, along with that, how about a 1.06b that includes these changes (the ones here and in the other threads). Once 6 stabilizes, these tweaks (Mardonius is right: they aren't much of a change) could be added in a follow-on to 1.06 (not specifically B, but the next letter).

Also, if 1.06 proves hard to stabilize, then you might consider adding them in 1.07.

I think you should try to get a dozen upgrades a year out, each of which is substantially smaller than what comes out now. Debugging would be much easier, and you could schedule things better, too:

Week 1: New code is added (part of this will have occurred in previous months)
Week 2: Code cutoff occurs. Also, true bug fixes can be added, but no other code (even important changes, like this one -- push them to the next month).
Week 3: Only bug fixes to this version's new code can be added.
Week 4: Code is released

Week 5: This is the next month. Ignore it, or use it as "make up days".

Rinse, lather, repeat.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 30
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