what ever happened to manuals that came with the game?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> what ever happened to manuals that came with the game?

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what ever happened to manuals that came with the game? - 5/21/2002 4:11:41 PM

Mugwump

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Joined: 5/21/2002
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ive just bought the game for �40 pounds , looks fantastic and cant wait to play, but now i have to go through the hassle of printing out the manual from the PDF one supplied on the
disc.

I really wish developers wouldent go through this shortcut,especially in a game as complicated as this , i often feel
that a nice chunky manual to peruse over tea is a sign of that extra bit of quality.

i bought SUB Command recently and that was a hideous nightmare - virtually 3 manuals for three subs- please can
we return to the glory days when everything was supplied ready to go out of the box, surely it must be cheaper for the publisher
to do this in bulk rather than giving the consumer the extra hidden cost that paper and ink cartridges entails.

Post #: 1

- 5/21/2002 5:30:46 PM

Sinjen

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From: Florida
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I think this has already been hashed over in previous threads.

Here is my thoughts:

I kinda like the .pdf manual with this game because you can tab out without crashing in UV and consult it. Also as they upgrade or patch the game, they can also patch the manual.

They save money and its a win-win all over. I don't really see the need to print it. The .pdf manual games that tick me off are the games that always crash when you tab out to consult the manual.

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Post #: 2

Make it a part of the game interface if no manuals are ... - 5/21/2002 5:40:44 PM

Ron Saueracker

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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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Europa Universalis 2 has a printed manual which is the best I've seen yet, but they also have tons of useful info available in the game interface, just move ones mouse pointer over any unit, data, description etc. and voila, up pops the pertinent info! NICE!

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Post #: 3

- 5/21/2002 5:48:11 PM

IKerensky

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Printed manual are invaluably better than pdf one:

- You can read them anywhere.
- You can read them while doing ANYTHING on your computer.
- You can go to any page and find the actual topic you are looking for quite faster than a PDF one.
- The are far more easy to read.
- You can keep reading them even when not playing the game ( something I do a lot ).

I guess than for a portion of the gaming public that rarely open a book this isn't a usefull feature. Personnaly I ALWAYS start by reading the manual, computer off , THEN I go to play the game. I am sad I wont be able to do so now because ... I have no way to cheap or easily print the manual. I guess Matrix want me to put my money on printing device and not buying there games, so I am ok with it.. and probably strongly slowdown buying there games.

Matrix is facing a crisis it doesnt want to admit. Talking with many of their retailers they are annoyed by the constant delay and double-tongue they are facing. It seems they grow to fast and engaged simultaneously with far too many project within having ever thought about the real infrastructure needed. The poor physical quality of their production so far ( no box for MC, no printed manual ) and their constant delay are only forgotten in front of the excellent quality of the games. But as the 2by3 team say , the games are developped by them ( and they rate a 9.5/10 ) and are producted by Matrix ( and they rate a 4/10 ). Frankly all I want is that they stopped using excuses like: manual are expensive, no they dont! ok so manual dont fit in DvD box, sorry they do ! ok but our is too big, so make one printed lighter or better and a .pdf one like many other editor society ! All I want to hear now is : Sorry we are just getting started in the business, we made some mistake, we will do better next time.

I buy something like 4 to 5 games a month. I dont plan on buying any Matrix games in the next year or so, even if some title interest me. Unless they show they want to make a better job.

P.S. even Schwerkpunt's Russo-German War 41-44 come with a printed manual !! are your staff smaller than him ?

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Post #: 4

- 5/21/2002 6:11:04 PM

Marc von Martial

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:rolleyes:

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Post #: 5

LOL to Mark S!!!!!! - 5/21/2002 6:17:33 PM

Ron Saueracker

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Great response, Mark. Enough said.;) Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Ha!!

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Post #: 6

- 5/21/2002 6:26:02 PM

WW2'er

Posts: 177
Joined: 4/20/2000
From: East Dundee, IL, USA
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(sigh) I don't know about anybody else, but I'm really getting tired of reading about not having a printed manual.

OK. You want one or at least the option of purchasing one. Message received......over and over and over and over again along with all the tens of arguments why.

Guess what? You still ain't getting one with this game. That decision was made. You can choose to live with it and buy the game, or not buy the game because it doesn't have a paper manual.

Kerensky, you may have some good points about Matrix taking on more than they can chew and you have every right to express your opinion and choose not to buy their games. I'm really not trying to get on your case so please don't take it that way. I'm just getting tired of rehashing the same arguments about the manual.

If you really want to see Matrix release games with manuals, why don't you take the fight to all the forums of their games that are still under development? It would seem to be a better tactic to me.

Sincerely, (honestly)

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Post #: 7

- 5/21/2002 6:40:27 PM

Huskalator

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From: Kansas
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A bit off topic but, do you think a kind and merciful soul could send me the manual. I don't get UV till Wendsday or Thursday and the wait is excrusciating.

Thanks.

[email]zlarue@hotmail.com[/email]

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Post #: 8

- 5/21/2002 11:40:24 PM

BB56

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From: Mountlake Terrace WA
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I got UV yesterday, loaded game, fired up manual then game. Guess what -> I read the tutorial chapter while running the scenario, learing the steps, then never went back to the manual again.
So, why print 132 pages when I'll never read them? I may, at times, just to see what else I might have missed, peruse the pdf manual on occassion, but for now, I'll learn as I go. Thus, at least for me, not need for printed manual.
BTW - great game Matrix!!!:D

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Post #: 9

- 5/21/2002 11:53:30 PM

Fuchida

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I must admit I don't mind the PDF manuals. I just print off the bits I want (and the paper for 130 pages will cost me about 65p) and I have an electronic manual which I can word-search when I want to find something.

Ever spent ages looking for that little rule you could have sworn was in there? Electronic search is so much easier.

Plus you can tab in and out. When playing UV, I have the game running, the manual, Word for my AAR and the forums for when I want to nip out of the game and ask a question or just take a break.

Breaks are needed because I have played this game for about four days straight. Up until 4.30am last night. Must sleep soon...

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Post #: 10

- 5/22/2002 12:01:36 AM

madflava13

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I also am a PDF convert - I used to love curling up with my manual at night, but Fuchida, you're dead on - electronic searches help you find that tiny rule you are looking for.

Kerensky - I understand where you're coming from, but I think you'll be missing out on some good titles by boycotting Matrix. Just my $.02...

2by3/Matrix- Best game I've ever played, bar none. If WiTP is anything like this, you will go down in history. I've only had the game in my hands since 5pm yesterday, but I played it until I started to fall asleep at the desk. I'm total junk at work today -- that tells me UV is a winner...

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Post #: 11

- 5/22/2002 12:45:30 AM

Paul Vebber

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I will take issue with Karensky for rumormongering about "problems with our constant delay and double tongue..."

Next time you talk to our distribuors (not retailers - they are mail order folks for teh most part...) ask them to let US know they are having problems. So far we have heard nothing but praise from them. UPS we can't control. What we can, nobody is complaining to us about!

IF you like the UV map and graphics, the combat screens and icons, the manual, the sounds, topnotch Beta testing effort, etc then I thnk you'd rate our contirbutin a bit higher than 4/10.

2by3 conceived of the game design and "under the hood" workings that make the game so accurate and fun.

We collaborated on development with Mike Wood of Matrix doing a lot of programming based on Gary, Keith and Joel's input. ITs their design certainly, and they deserve the lion's share of the credit for it being such a great game.

To imply that all we did was put the game in a box and ship it out is doing both partners in this a diservice!

The bottom line on the manual is that we weren;t going to give you a manual that we felt was up to hte standard set by the rest of teh game, and that would effectively cost you what you would pay to have it done yourself. I suspect those that saved themselves $10 on the game becasue they are satisfied with the pdf are happy with that.

Games are getting expensive to produce. If you want the sort of quality we have shown you we can do with UV, youhave to pay for it.

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Post #: 12

Matrix - 5/22/2002 2:39:01 AM

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Nice going Paul:)

I dont like the critisim that Karensky guy wrote so I would just like to say again how much I like and support Matrix. They have given me a "home" for my hobby that was lost with SSI and that Talonsoft never provided. How they help us at the forums with our tiny/petty problems. UV would not have been so darn good without Matrix! I will buy every Matrix game ( except sci-fi and Napoleon battle stuff ). In doing so I insure that they will be around for a long time and I will get great games. I think Matrix has learnt a great deal since their first products came out.

I would also like to that Matrix employee ERIK for being so nice to answer my stupid UV questions. The rest of you are nice too!:)

Dan

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Post #: 13

- 5/22/2002 3:09:34 AM

osros

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How about those Hint Books they put out for the games?

Is it the game company themselfs that put it out or a third party?

Leave the PDF with the game, But also maybe Matrix works out some deal with a third party to produce a Manual / Hints & Tips book, Sold seperate from the game.
That will give those of us who want a nice printed manual an
option. $10 -$15 I buy it. Split the costs, Split the profits everyones happy.

Only draw back I see is the fact UV is not a major shelf release in the software stores. So.... :confused:

Its too late for UV but maybe the next one!

My .02 Cents

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Post #: 14

- 5/22/2002 3:11:23 AM

Joel Billings

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Paul is right. Matrix had a big hand in many aspects of the creation of UV and definitely deserve a solid rating for that contribution. When I was at SSI there were times when SSI would make a serious contribution on the development side with an outside game designer/development house. Although this was always hard to pull off, if both companies worked together and contributed their strengths, the product would be much better for it. The original Steel Panthers is an example of that (probably the best example both critically and commercially). I believe that UV is another example of that kind of development. You can judge for yourself as to its success.

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Post #: 15

- 5/22/2002 4:23:33 AM

Mike Wood

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Hello...

In my less than humble opinion, Gary Grigsby is the best war game designer to have ever graced the planet. Joel is the finest detail man ever to produce a game of any kind and Keith is the smartest programmer I have ever worked with.

Matrix was very lucky to sign them and the company they started, 2x3 Games, for this project. Matrix provided the art, music and other support a developer needs, as well as my limited programming skills.

It was an honor to work with these folk. I am expecting War in the Pacific to break even more ground. Gary has already added hundreds of enhancments and new ship and unit types.

So, lets all hear it for 2x3...

Michael Wood

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Post #: 16

- 5/22/2002 7:02:57 AM

David Heath

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For the Record Joel Billings and 2 by 3 were 100% behind the choice of making a PDF manual and not a printed one. Joel went so far as to support that choice right here on this forum. Let me say here and now... wargame prices are going up if you want the great talents of 2 by 3, SSG and other designers to still make wargames they got to be able to live off of their work as do we.

Sorry Kerensky we did not make an excuse or a mistake we made a choice! One that we feel most wargamers will find better or at least still find workable. As is your choice don't buy our games but don't try to make it sound like we are scamming the public.

SSI and Talonsoft did it by your rules and are gone. What can we say its a new day for new ideas........ time will tell.

David

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- 5/22/2002 8:54:03 AM

IChristie

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OK,

So let me throw in my biased opinion as well. I am very excited by the way that David and Matrix are running their business:

Wargames by wargamers for wargamers.

This is a niche market. Instead of trying to market their products to a wider audience by tossing in extra eye and ear candy (into which category some gamers - including myself - would put a glossy manual). Matrix tries to get wargamers on staff to put in the things that wargamers want. They employ wargamers (well, actually the offer wargamers royalties on game sales) to do the graphics, sounds, interface and much of the programming. Then they give the game to veteran wargamers and ask them to beat the bejeesus out of it until it is a game THEY would play - not a game that will sell thousands of copies.

Then, they try to sell it at a price that ensures that everyone will continue to be able to eat while they make the next one. Based on the success of Pacwar - the matrix project; SPWAW and now UV, I would say they have the formula right. WITP ans CL/CA are looking like they will be great as well. Basically Matrix is hand crafting games for a small connoiseur market. Unfortunately all of us are going to continue to pay fairly large sums for these products until we convince A LOT MORE people to buy them and enjoy them.

Thanks for all the support. I hope you really love the game.

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Post #: 18

- 5/22/2002 9:04:10 AM

FirstPappy

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... and most importantly of all - STING and his rain forest thanks online pdf manuals!

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- 5/23/2002 12:12:21 AM

David Heath

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That's right.... Lets not forget about Sting

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- 5/23/2002 12:38:56 AM

sbond

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Well Matrix is not the only one going with PDF manuals. It is pretty much becoming standard operation procedure. If you go to the local game store all the boxes are now those little 5 by 7 or whatever sized ones. Most have electronic manuals these days with a small quick start guide inside.

The game is fantastic, it is a rare day when a game goes above what I expect, and this one did just that. And that is what I wanted, not a pretty manual.

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- 5/23/2002 12:39:31 AM

AlvinS

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The PDF manual is just fine with me. Once I learn the interface of the game, I return to the manual occasionally to get answers to questions. Eventually a printed manual would be collecting dust with all of the others.

Between the PDF manual and this forum I can think of no better way to learn the game.

The quality of the games that Matrix develops far exceeds anything else out there on the shelves.

The only problem that I have discovered with Uncommon Valor is that time disappears. Sleep is but a memory.

Rumor has it that the Q in the upper right hand corner of the screen is used to exit the game. I'll investigate that feature someday and let you know if its true.:D

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"Tab out to read manual" - 5/23/2002 10:02:29 AM

Johnus

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Can someone explain how to "tab out" to read manual without exiting Uncommon Valor. Thanks.

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- 5/23/2002 10:33:53 AM

Paul Vebber

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HIt "alt tab" to shift form one open application window to another. You can also use that funky "flying windows" key next to "alt" all by itself

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Post #: 24

great manual - 5/30/2002 2:56:04 AM

Horus

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Alt - tab is ok but i like offline reading too. Np i had printed it out and its a real nice manual ;) . Real good games for not the mass market can�t be cheap. So Matrix you did the right thing thx for the game ( and more in the future ).

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get real, Kerensky - 5/30/2002 3:39:30 AM

gnuseditor

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First of all, you're kidding yourself if you think printing those manuals is not an expensive proposition. I publish a monthly business newspaper in the Puget Sound area, and I know what paper costs, what ink costs, what prepress costs, and what the press itself costs to run ... you obviously have no idea, so please don't pretend that you do. You don't just trot down to Kinkos with a floppy disk!

Secondly (and finally, because negative posters and gripers like you just make me madder and madder -- I may end up typing all day...) if you really think Matrix is so incompetent and so awful, why don't you just GO AWAY? You are not contributing to inciteful dialog or constructive criticism -- you're just foisting your bile on the rest of us.

I, for one, applaud Matrix and 2 by3 for going the "independent" route ... and from everything I've read, Karensky's diatribe aside, they have produced what many admittedly jaded gamers are calling a fabulous product. Three cheers for you, guys and gals -- and don't let clowns like Karensky get you down!

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- 5/30/2002 10:08:56 AM

Adam Parker

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How - I've - changed my tune! Only about a month ago I was ranting about the lunacy of companies refusing to print their rulebooks. A public apology to Matrix and all others right here.

Whilst I'll always prefer a printed manual I genuinely now understand why I'll not always get them. Key to this epiphany - speak to those in the business. Hey, they're humans too?!

The only thing I could hope for is that as the Pocket PC phenomenon continues to take hold, that a format which works like a PDF with links can be found. EBooks exist now but converting a PDF or Word Doc to EBook format is a major challenge!

That said, if with the next game, the PDF file could also be provided as a Word Doc (even without links) that would be great. Simply transferring a Word Doc to Pocket PC is a snap. Presto! Portable manual!

Well, my game's just reached me... I'll soon be firing it up... I've printed my manual... no worries yet ;) Thanks for what promises to be a great experience.

Adam.

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> what ever happened to manuals that came with the game?

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