Mardonius
Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
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Gents:
If anyone wants to throw barbs or spears or sticks and stones or pacifistic words  at anyone for advocating the change in naval costs, I should be your target. Please throw way.
Here is a post a produced at Ashtar's personal request on 4 Deember of 2008
Here is where I came up with the build costs for the LS/HS.
1799 to 1804 period
Frigate: Large US one around $300k. Small US 200k
SOL 400 to 500K. Say 500 K including crew bounties etc.
Gunboat: $10,500
Source: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:C49u_2l2a3wJ:www.scribd.com/doc/2399409/The-Atlantic-Monthly-Volume-07-No-44-June-1861-Creator-by-Various+%22cost+of+a+ship+of+the+line%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
Do a search on costs or ships and you’ll see the numbers
Each British man cost £26 to train as a infantry soldier in 1795 or so. Assuming each factor equals 1500 men, then each infantry facots cost £39k pounds.
Source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xiV5Q7uupVUC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=%22raising+a+regiment%22+cost&source=web&ots=4zt8RVpXvm&sig=0I6BPlzjIZSgHlqbnHO6A-YKRds&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA131,M1
And to Bresh's inquiries shortly afterwards:
Here are some more independent sources that confirm that my original research is accurate and conservative.
HMS Victory's total cost was £63,176 and 3 shillings in 1765. At a 5-1 $ to £ ratio, this equals around $320,000.
Source: http://www.ahrtp.com/ShipsPortsOnLine/pages/VICTR1.htm
Note that she was rebuilt around 1797 for a slightly larger sum of £70,933, or approximately the same amount allowing for inflation. Or around $355,000 in our period.
A 74 Gun SOL cost £43,820. Or around $215,000
Source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uH--DfZKzE4C&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=cost+%22ship+of+the+line%22+expensive&source=bl&ots=AURHbtiZxn&sig=mOUhk_AXVMC9j22hH-QfeqpRO5k&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result
A 36 Gun Frigate cost around $100,000 (Same source, see above) page 43.
An 80 Gunner SOL cost 53,120 pounds or around $265,000 in 1789
A 98 Gunner SOL cost 57,120 pounds in 1789. or around $285,000. Page 46 same source.
I’d add some monies to these build costs for crew bounties. Probably 25%.
Costs of Infantry:
“Almost all soldiers at the time signed on for life in exchange for a "bounty" of £23 17s 6d, most of which was absorbed by the cost of outfitting "necessities".”
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_during_the_Napoleonic_Wars
So for a unit of 1500 men (halfway between the 1 to 2 thousand figure per factor of our game) will cost £40,000 just to muster and equip. Or almost as much as a 74 Gun Ship of the line to Build.
Given that we charge $3 for an infantry unit of approx 1500 persons, which in reality cost £40,000 to muster and equip and given that the comparable cost for a 74 Gun ship of the lines constructions is £43,820, it is not at all radical to suggest the current 4-1 ratio of ship of the line to infantry costs be reduced. Therefore, the figures of $8 or $7 are again found to be conservative.
For those of you who consider balance, which is wise indeed, ask yourselves what happens when France gets too strong? Or Russia? Or Turkey, Spain, or Austria etc.
The key to this game is that it is a diplomatic engagement where every power has countervailing strengths and weaknesses. Any power – save GB under the current rules -- can be checked. The realistic reduction in ship costs I note do not rob GB of the ability to build ships herself. As she has more money, she can build the most ships. And if we introduce a 4.0/3.0 morale system for Naval combat with appropriate die modifiers, those ships will be the best ships. Such a game would be more fun and I would not hesitate to jump at the chance to take on the role of GB. Fleet counters in Portugal and Denmark would matter. You’d have a real stake in the game…
Exchange of US Dollars to British Pounds during this period is roughly rate 5 to 1
http://www.likesbooks.com/money.html
(OK, not the most scholary source, but it will do for rough numbers as those love novels are a huge genre and well researched. )
Therefore, a regiment of 1500 men costs about 190, 000 dollars or just under half of a cost ship of the line, minus the ship’s crew.
In our EiA World, an infantry regiment costs $3. Based on our rations, a ship of the line (heavy Ship) should cost around $7 or 8 at most.
A frigate (light ship) should cost $3 or $4.
Note that these numbers discount maintenance costs, but these are mostly ignored in EiA for both Land and Sea forces.
Therefore, it is not unrealistic to significantly lower the costs of building a navy. Rather, it is unrealistic to keep them at the current high levels.
Production times do vary. So I woudl go with the original 12 months for a HS and 6 months for LS. If it were programmable and people were desiring it, perhaps a premium for quicker builds.
Prizes to be rebuilt at half cost/time. Still need MP.
As far as balance goes, spending $8 for a single ship is still quite a bit of money. I would adjust LSs to be equal to 1/2 HS with some slight evasion/interception bonuses. GB could be outspent, but it woudl take a concerted effort to do so. Much like it takes to take down France.
See http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1967744&mpage=1&key=ship�
But in fairness to Ashtar and others, play testing is important. So Obsidiandragon et alias efforts are valuable. And let's keep the original EiA as an option... preferably with lots of modular options built into the system.
The LS costs seem to have been kept higher ($6 rather than the 3 or 4 from historical research) as they are counting as full combat factors. Maybe we should think of them as 64 gun SOLs (HFJ: your thoughts?)
I would be in favor of redesigning the whole naval system and play testing it with a working group but in the meantime, this seems to be a good start. Let us see how the play testing proceeds. I think it will make the game a lot more fun.
Best
Mardonius
_____________________________
"Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant" -- James Madison
"Yes, you will win most battles, but if you loose to me you will loose oh so badly that it causes me pain (chortle) just to think of it" - P. Khan
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RE: Light Ships madness - 
), and I would be surely interested in hearing about your field experience. However, I do not see why it should be relevant if the subject here is game design. 
) as they should either be much less combat effective in fleet actions or more expensive. I think Panzergrenadier's interim (before any naval redesign, knock on oak) idea of proportional losses is a sound solution. 
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