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air defence - threat axes - 4/26/2009 5:42:10 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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Another fine controversy from VitP.

When arranging ships in a naval formation, certain units should be placed so that they can best deal with incoming threats. In other words, they should be placed on threat axes between high-value units and potential threats.

Surface and subsurface threats will generally approach from the front of the formation, if only because the formation is moving away from the rear quadrants. However, if the threats move much faster than the formation, as aircraft do, they could come in from any direction. In fact, the aircraft SHOULD come in from whatever direction gives them the best advantage. The ships will be unable to respond quickly enough, and the formation must be treated as being static.

There will be situations where the aircraft can only approach the formation from one direction. This will primarily be due to the target being far from the airbase. (see Fig. 1) There will be other situations where the flight path of the aircraft is somewhat restricted, and there could be many reasons for this. There could be situations where the flight path of the aircraft is not restricted for any physical reason, but is restricted by doctrine or a more temporary choice. For purposes of this discussion, I am assuming that none of these considerations apply, and the aircraft actually can approach the formation from any direction. (see Fig. 2)





Just to make things a little more specific, let’s assume that the aircraft want to approach the formation from a direction that avoids the nastiest air defence unit (NADU, eg. a Bunker Hill or a Kirov) as much as possible. This means that the aircraft will have to fly around the perimeter of the formation to reach the best attack point. The NADU will typically have long-range SAMs, and that range depends on the unit. However, all ships have a radar horizon of about 50 nm, and all aircraft can safely approach the ship that far at low altitude. What additional distance must the aircraft travel in this case?

The additional distance depends on how far away the airbase is. However, if the airbase is far away, the additional distance from point A to B will be approximately the safe distance R from the NADU. (see Fig. 3) Then the aircraft will fly around the perimeter of the formation from B to C, and that distance is 1.57 x R. The aircraft will also have to return, so, at most, the total additional distance is 2 x (R + 1.57 x R) = 2 x R x 2.57 = 257 nm. The practical additional distance will be slightly larger, primarily for safety reasons.



The attacking aircraft can come in from whatever direction gives them the advantage. If the formation is arranged to be strongest from some direction, then it will be weaker from other directions. Therefore the formation needs to be arranged in as symmetric a fashion as possible. (see Fig. 4) This applies not only to the NADU, but also to the other units with air defence capacity. As corollary to this statement, the formation also needs to be packed fairly tightly. (There may be a competition between the requirements for air defence and subsurface defence. Defence against surface threats will follow similar principles to air defence.)




< Message edited by VictorInThePacific -- 4/26/2009 5:50:32 AM >
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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/26/2009 3:26:18 PM   
CV32


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific
Another fine controversy from VitP.


Why is it controversial?

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(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/26/2009 3:45:03 PM   
RA5C


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I trust this assumption is based on not having to worry about any EW Birds (Hummers, Prowlers, etc.)?  Also, assuming a 50nm radar horizon for all ships (which really depends upon the vertical location of the array or dish; an excellent link for determining ranges is here: http://www.tscm.com/rdr-hori.pdf), it appears the range formula is based on the NADU... but what about the NQANADU's*?  Depending on their location in the formation and distance from your primary capital ships, your actual detection range envelope would vary depending on the height of the ship's mast and the distance from the center of the formation.
 
*Not Quite As Nasty Air Defense Unit

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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/27/2009 3:06:03 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

Why is it controversial?


The controversy, if there is any, has to do with my general claim, which I did not state explicitly:

"Against air threats, a threat axis cannot really be identified."

Whatever threat axis is defined by the formation, the attacking force is liable to define it differently, to the detriment of the defender. Therefore, all directions need to be defended equally against air threats.

Also, I am promoting the concept of the densely-packed formation. As far as I can tell, in Harpoon, against air threats, you want to pack all your ships into as small an area as possible, keeping nukes in mind. The only disadvantage I can see to this is bearing-only launches, and not necessarily even in this case. But I think this is not the way things are done in real life?

Against surface threats, I also advocate a dense packing.

I have no clue how to defend against submarines, because there is no reliable way of detecting them.

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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/27/2009 3:15:59 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RA5C

I trust this assumption is based on not having to worry about any EW Birds (Hummers, Prowlers, etc.)? 


yes (and enemy fighters !)

quote:

Also, assuming a 50nm radar horizon for all ships (which really depends upon the vertical location of the array or dish; an excellent link for determining ranges is here:http://www.tscm.com/rdr-hori.pdf), it appears the range formula is based on the NADU... but what about the NQANADU's?  Depending on their location in the formation and distance from your primary capital ships, your actual detection range envelope would vary depending on the height of the ship's mast and the distance from the center of the formation.


and yes.

BTW, my previous thread "air attack on US SAG" assumes a whole batch of NQANADUs.

Vigilante, thanks for the link.

< Message edited by VictorInThePacific -- 4/27/2009 3:20:24 AM >

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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/27/2009 8:25:55 PM   
CV32


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific
The controversy, if there is any, has to do with my general claim, which I did not state explicitly: "Against air threats, a threat axis cannot really be identified." Whatever threat axis is defined by the formation, the attacking force is liable to define it differently, to the detriment of the defender. Therefore, all directions need to be defended equally against air threats.


I'd agree sort of generally with that, though only to a point. It would be foolhardy for a defender to assume that an air attack could only come from one direction, though in every instance the defender would strive to increase the chances of making it so. In some circumstances, he may be compelled to gamble on that chance, and hope to have time to readjust to meet any new or emerging threat. In other cases, the attacker may only have one avenue by which to press his attack, whether because the target is at the far edge of his endurance, or because other enemies block other routes. Very little is absolute.

quote:

Also, I am promoting the concept of the densely-packed formation ... Against surface threats, I also advocate a dense packing. I have no clue how to defend against submarines, because there is no reliable way of detecting them.


It just so happens (surprise!) that a densely packed formation makes a great target for submarines.

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(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/27/2009 10:46:33 PM   
RA5C


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32
It just so happens (surprise!) that a densely packed formation makes a great target for submarines.


...and the same for ASM's and SSM's. For a convoy or group that is bunched up, B/O attacks are much more successful then if they are spread out requiring better location data.

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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/28/2009 6:24:40 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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quote:

For a convoy or group that is bunched up, B/O attacks are much more successful then if they are spread out requiring better location data.


I have to disagree with this.

1) It is possible to defeat BOL missiles by maneuver. If you detect the incoming missiles early enough, the affected ships should move at maximum speed perpendicular to the path of the incoming missiles. Watch the missiles head off into deep space and laugh maniacally.

This works best for a dispersed formation, especially if the missiles are heading for a ship on the flank of the formation, but that is an administrative detail caused by the fact that Harpoon does not allow you to properly plot trajectories.

2) Any formation is stronger against incoming missiles if its SAMs can be concentrated (i.e. if the formation is closely packed). The exception would be if the formation does not have sufficient SAMs to deal with the incoming missiles, especially if you are planning to sacrifice some ships. But if the formation is low on SAMs, then the attacker is going to sink the whole thing anyway.

The only time dispersing the formation helps against BOL missiles is when the SAM computer decides that BOL missiles are not actually a threat.

In my old version of Harpoon Classic, I have found that BOL missiles are simply ignored until they are within about 5 nm of the target, at which point it is too late to do anything about it. Since the computer always launched at first contact at a poor detection, i.e. using BOL, and since my SAMs would never bother to shoot at such missiles, the only solution I could figure out was to make sure that the computer never detected my ships. This is a game-breaking bug. I am assuming that it doesn't happen in the current version of Harpoon.

(in reply to RA5C)
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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/28/2009 6:33:26 PM   
CV32


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific
1) It is possible to defeat BOL missiles by maneuver. If you detect the incoming missiles early enough, the affected ships should move at maximum speed perpendicular to the path of the incoming missiles. Watch the missiles head off into deep space and laugh maniacally.


Maneuver doesn't work very well against close range shots (think submarine shooting BOL from a sonar contact), very high speed missiles, very slow speed ships (think convoys or phibgrus), or missiles that are capable of re-attack.

quote:

Any formation is stronger against incoming missiles if its SAMs can be concentrated (i.e. if the formation is closely packed).


One thing Harpoon does not model very well is masking of targets and own defenses by neighboring friendlies, especially if they are closely packed. Often times you can't shoot at what you can't see.
Fields of fire, safety zones, and fratricide also comes into play.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
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Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/30/2009 2:14:39 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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quote:

Maneuver doesn't work very well against close range shots (think submarine shooting BOL from a sonar contact), very high speed missiles, very slow speed ships (think convoys or phibgrus), or missiles that are capable of re-attack.


In case 3 below, the above points are relevant and important. Case 3 is to be understood to apply only in certain situations.
__________________________________________________________

The best way to defeat anti-ship missiles is to ensure that they never get launched. The second best way is to shoot them down in flight. But there is a third way, which involves maneuvering the target ship, even though the missile always moves at least 20 x as fast as the ship.

Evading anti-ship missiles by maneuver:

1) Evasion to gain distance.

If the target ship moves at maximum speed directly away from the missile, it may be able to move beyond the maximum missile range before the missile arrives. This is why no one ever fires missiles at maximum range. This concept is actually built into the launch restrictions of certain missiles in Harpoon.

2) Evasion to gain time.

If the target ship moves at maximum speed directly away from the missile, the missile will arrive later than if the ship were stationary. This gives any defending SAM launchers more time to respond (more fire cycles), and this may be critical. Without doing an exact calculation for the specific situation, this process should be a standard response to any incoming missiles, unless there are only a few missiles, in which case you just swat them aside, or there are far too many missiles, in which case it doesn’t matter what you do.

3) Evasion to gain angle.

If the incoming missile has been launched by bearing only, then it will not change its course to track a maneuvering ship until it is about 5 nm from the original position of the ship, although this can be set differently. The first step is to determine if this case applies. Harpoon does not give you a good mechanism to do so, but it is not impossible. If this case does apply, the affected ship should move at maximum speed perpendicular to the course of the missile.

There are too many unknown variables to analyze this case completely. Only a few representative cases will be considered. The main thing I will consider is when the ship has moved 5 nm from its original position. A 20 kn ship will need 15 min; a 30 kn ship will need 10 min. At this point , the ship will be 7 nm away from the missile activation point, which is less than the 10 nm maximum, but that’s not important. However, the ship is now 45 degrees away from the missile flight path, and that can be very important. I am assuming that the missile cannot attack a target at 45 degrees.



How much time does the ship have to execute this maneuver? If the missile travels at 600 kn (Mach .9) and is detected 200 nm away from the ship, then it needs 20 min to arrive, so ships of any speed will be able to evade by angle. If the missile speed is doubled (to 1200 kn) or the detection distance is halved (to 100 nm), then the arrival time is halved (to 10 min). Now the fast ship should still be able to evade by angle. The slow ship, maybe not.

Harpoon does not consider many things that exist in real life. For example, SAM launchers generally don’t have a 360 degree field of fire, and the actual maneuver direction will be restricted in real life. I will let someone else analyze whether this is a problem or not.



< Message edited by VictorInThePacific -- 4/30/2009 2:23:07 AM >

(in reply to CV32)
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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/30/2009 2:19:38 AM   
VictorInThePacific

 

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quote:

One thing Harpoon does not model very well is masking of targets and own defenses by neighboring friendlies, especially if they are closely packed. Often times you can't shoot at what you can't see.
Fields of fire, safety zones, and fratricide also comes into play.


Interesting ...

Opens up a whole new set of possibilities.

So if you line it up right (in real life) so that the (virtually unarmed) picket ship is between the attacking aircraft and the NADU, then the NADU doesn't even get a shot?

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RE: air defence - threat axes - 4/30/2009 3:12:44 PM   
CV32


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific
So if you line it up right (in real life) so that the (virtually unarmed) picket ship is between the attacking aircraft and the NADU, then the NADU doesn't even get a shot?


Sure. Not in HCE, mind you, but in real life, many SAM systems rely on a direct LOS between the shooter and the target. If there's a large friendly ship laying between the shooter and an incoming sea skimmer, there is no shot.

Btw, we've been looking at BOL attacks lately as part of work on EMCON in the code. The danger zone is more like 20 nm.

_____________________________

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Author of HCDB official database for HCE
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(in reply to VictorInThePacific)
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