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Sea boxes again - 4/25/2009 2:57:52 AM

willycube

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/24/2005
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I just finished Steve's player manual section 3 which has some references about sea boxes, and Im still a little confused, please unconfuse me, Im sure when the game is released the rules and uses will be well covered. I would like someone to cover them in laymans terms with me not a one line summary, eg. is there a chart or rules to what happens in seabox 4 as compared to seabox 1,2, or 3 or is there a chart which determines the outcome by a dice roll. I am more interested in how battles including naval combat [surface] and air naval combat are affected by the seabox your in or there in, [the enemy] including how searches are resolved. To you experienced WIF boardgamers that thinks the question is a little on the dumb side you might be right but I could use some help, much of the rest of the game I am beginning to understand by reading the posts etc. Reading stratigies by very good board players and by Steve. Thanks in advance.

Willy

Post #: 1

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/25/2009 3:27:25 AM

christo

Posts: 99
Joined: 11/24/2005
From: adelaide, australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I just finished Steve's player manual section 3 which has some references about sea boxes, and Im still a little confused, please unconfuse me, Im sure when the game is released the rules and uses will be well covered. I would like someone to cover them in laymans terms with me not a one line summary, eg. is there a chart or rules to what happens in seabox 4 as compared to seabox 1,2, or 3 or is there a chart which determines the outcome by a dice roll. I am more interested in how battles including naval combat [surface] and air naval combat are affected by the seabox your in or there in, [the enemy] including how searches are resolved. To you experienced WIF boardgamers that thinks the question is a little on the dumb side you might be right but I could use some help, much of the rest of the game I am beginning to understand by reading the posts etc. Reading stratigies by very good board players and by Steve. Thanks in advance.

Willy

I'll give this a bit of a go and probably confuse you further.
When moving into seazone you chose which box to put your fleet/ planes into. The higher the box the more movement points that it takes. If and when combat is initated in that seazone you roll a d10 as your "search roll". There are a couple of possible modifiers but at the end of the day if you roll equal to or less than your numbered seabox then your units in that seabox(s) will be involved in combat. Thus the higher the box the greater the chance of combat.
Then surprise points are determined. This is your highest included units PLUS your opponents search roll. These suprise points can then be used to your advantage in chosing the type of combat or just affecting the mechanics of battle.
Thus the higher the sea box that you are in means that you are more likely to be involved in combat but then also it helps in determining the outcome of the battle.
There are a few other minor points that I have not discussed such as the ability of the successful searching side to target enemy specific enemy sea boxes but the fundamental point is the higher the seabox the more likely you are to go into combat in an advantagous position.

An example.
North Sea, CW cruiser in the 4 box, carrier or two in the 3 box with cruiser escort, battleship force in the 2 box
Ge surface fleet in the 4 box. Clear weather.
Germany rolls a 2 (fleet finds) CW rolls a 7 (no find)
Ge can now chose which CW units to target........ the carriers/ cruisers in the 3 box.
German suprise points 4 (highest unit included) plus 7 (enemy roll) for 11 points
CW suprise points 3 (highest included unit) plus 2 (enemy roll) for 5 points
Thus the Ge player has 11-5=6 surprise points
He is able to use these points to chose a surface action (instead of a naval air) and to increase his damage rolls (for example)
Thus despite being outnumbered, because he was in a higher seabox and rolled a better search roll he is now in the box seat.

Hope this helps

Cheers
Chris

Christo

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 2

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/25/2009 8:06:32 AM

Maesphil74

Posts: 93
Joined: 4/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I just finished Steve's player manual section 3
Willy

Willy, what do you mean 'Steve's player manual section 3'?
Have the MWIF RAW been posted?

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Post #: 3

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/25/2009 9:17:36 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I just finished Steve's player manual section 3
Willy

Willy, what do you mean 'Steve's player manual section 3'?
Have the MWIF RAW been posted?

There is a thread called What Do We Want in a Players Manual (or some such name). I have posted sections of the Players Manual there for comments - as I write it.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 4

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/25/2009 1:06:13 PM

Mad Russian

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Willy, as a naval unit moves it doesn't count hexes but sea areas. Each sea area it moves into costs it one movement point. When you get where you want to be whatever unused movement points allow you to be placed in one of the boxes in that sea area. The sea area that your forces can be placed into cannot be higher than the unused number of movement points.

Example: A battleship has a movement factor of 4. It moves into an adjacent sea area and then one further sea area. It has then used 2 movement points. In the second sea area it could be placed in the 0.1 or 2 sea boxes since it has 2 remaining movement points left.

The level of sea box makes a difference in many different ways.

Hope this helps a little.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 5

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/25/2009 4:15:17 PM

willycube

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Joined: 1/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Willy, as a naval unit moves it doesn't count hexes but sea areas. Each sea area it moves into costs it one movement point. When you get where you want to be whatever unused movement points allow you to be placed in one of the boxes in that sea area. The sea area that your forces can be placed into cannot be higher than the unused number of movement points.

Example: A battleship has a movement factor of 4. It moves into an adjacent sea area and then one further sea area. It has then used 2 movement points. In the second sea area it could be placed in the 0.1 or 2 sea boxes since it has 2 remaining movement points left.

The level of sea box makes a difference in many different ways.

Hope this helps a little.

Good Hunting.

MR

Thanks Christo thats very helpful thank you, MR not helpful [HEHE] MR if you have a few moments go into more detail please. I knew from posts about what box they could or could not go into by movement points left but is there a chart in WIF that says ok your in box three and the die roll is such and such and here is the outcome or here is what you can do to enhance you combat odds or whatever, think of us poor brethern who have never played WIF as people lost at sea. [pun] Be looking for more detail MR if you are so inclined. PLEASE!

Willy

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 6

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/25/2009 5:06:50 PM

willycube

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fleming

quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

I just finished Steve's player manual section 3
Willy

Willy, what do you mean 'Steve's player manual section 3'?
Have the MWIF RAW been posted?

Hi Fleming I am not sure about rules but it is very informative and interesting, send me your e-mail adress to -- bowenw1@verizon.net and I will mail you player manual sec.3

< Message edited by willycube -- 4/25/2009 5:10:02 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/26/2009 1:05:38 PM

Mad Russian

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Willy, as a naval unit moves it doesn't count hexes but sea areas. Each sea area it moves into costs it one movement point. When you get where you want to be whatever unused movement points allow you to be placed in one of the boxes in that sea area. The sea box that your forces can be placed into cannot be higher than the unused number of movement points.

Example: A battleship has a movement factor of 4. It moves into an adjacent sea area and then one further sea area. It has then used 2 movement points. In the second sea area it could be placed in the 0.1 or 2 sea boxes since it has 2 remaining movement points left.

The level of sea box makes a difference in many different ways.

Hope this helps a little.

Good Hunting.

MR

Thanks Christo thats very helpful thank you, MR not helpful [HEHE] MR if you have a few moments go into more detail please. I knew from posts about what box they could or could not go into by movement points left but is there a chart in WIF that says ok your in box three and the die roll is such and such and here is the outcome or here is what you can do to enhance you combat odds or whatever, think of us poor brethern who have never played WIF as people lost at sea. [pun] Be looking for more detail MR if you are so inclined. PLEASE!

Willy

I was explaining it to a person that hasn't played the game before. Starting with the bare basics. I didn't know you understood the sea area movement concept when I gave you the first explanation. If can't understand sea area movement you sure aren't going to understand sea boxes.

So, you're looking for what capabilities each sea box has individually?

Normally the higher the sea box the better. You have to be in box 2 or higher to invade with non-marine units. You have to be in box 1 or higher to invade with marine units. (Unless that has changed in all the versions. If it has someone will correct me.)

There is a bombardment factor for ships firing at land targets, the higher the box you are in the better your combat factors are.

The higher the sea box you're in the better your search factors are and the less likelyhood of your being surprised in a naval combat. Being surprised, as you might imagine is not a good thing. Think Japanese carriers at Midway here and you get the picture.

To make this fairly simple think of movement points in terms of time. A movement factor of 4, in a 2 month turn, would represent a single movement point as being how far a ship could move in 2 weeks. (2 months = 8 weeks....divide that by the 4 movement points the ship has and that gives you 1 movement point equal to 2 weeks.)

So, if you only took a single movement point to get where you were going it took you 2 weeks of the 8 week turn. (A WiF turn is 2 months or 8 weeks) If you took 3 movement points to get where you were going they you arrived in the last 2 weeks of the 2 month period.

What that means for a WiF turn.

Here are two examples of a naval unit with a movement factor of 4.

A 1 Movement Point move.

You move for 2 weeks and you have 6 weeks to do other things. Like bombard shore units. Search the surrounding sea areas, etc. Your effectiveness in this area is very high because you are spending alot of time here doing whatever you like.

A 3 Movement Point move.

You move for 6 weeks and you have only 2 weeks left to do other things. While you can still bombard shore units and search the surrounding sea areas you have very little time to do in context of the turn and therefor your effectiveness is less.

Maybe this will help you understand it a bit better.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/26/2009 1:12:25 PM >

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RE: Sea boxes again - 4/26/2009 1:12:11 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Normally the higher the sea box the better. You have to be in box 2 or higher to invade with non-marine units. You have to be in box 1 or higher to invade with marine units.

Looks like you did not play WiF in the last couple of years. This is not more true in the Final Edition of WiF FE (which dates from 1996). You can invade from any box, but you the defenders have a bonus combat factors equal to the shore bombardment. The lower, the better for the defenders. This need you to be in sea box 3 or higher to give no bonus to the defenders.

The shore bombardment increases under rain weather, so invasions are worse under that weather. They need you to be in sea box 4 to give no bonus to the defenders.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 9

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/26/2009 4:48:33 PM

willycube

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Joined: 1/24/2005
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Thank you MR good explanation of sea boxes but was there a chart of somekind in WIF board game that would clarify what possible outcomes could happen depending on the die roll befor you rolled the dice? Like if you were in box two this could happen in box three this could happen etc.

Willy

(in reply to willycube)

Post #: 10

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/26/2009 6:05:16 PM

chacal83000

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From: French Coast of Somalis
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Hmm
In wich cases is it better to be in a lower sea box ?

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RE: Sea boxes again - 4/26/2009 6:11:17 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chacal83

Hmm
In wich cases is it better to be in a lower sea box ?

When you are afraid - very afraid.

Being in a high box means you might see the enemy units. Now sometimes when that happens, you can avoid combat, but there are times when the enemy does not find you , but you have the misfortune of finding him and combat must enuse.
---
Convoys have no choice in the matter of sea area section box - they must always be placed in the zero box. ASW units (both carriers and escorts) must also be in the zero box. So, sometimes you want to put all your eggs in one basket - e.g., have all your other units in the zero box with the convoys - so if combat does occur, everyone on your side will fight together, rather than be attacked piecemeal.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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RE: Sea boxes again - 4/26/2009 6:21:49 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chacal83

Hmm
In wich cases is it better to be in a lower sea box ?

Low box = Sitting duck. Lesser chances of finding the enemy, but the enemy have same chances at finding you (depends on his box). If he does, he'll surprise you heavily. If the enemy is in the 0 box, going in the 0 box too ensure you that you won't find him, unless special cirumstances occur.

Generaly you never try to be in lower boxes, you only are in lower boxes because you have to. You have to in case of Convoys and ASW who are forced to be in the 0 box, to simulate their "sitting duck" state.

Low box = Sitting duck.
High box = hunter.

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RE: Sea boxes again - 4/26/2009 6:35:32 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willycube

Thank you MR good explanation of sea boxes but was there a chart of somekind in WIF board game that would clarify what possible outcomes could happen depending on the die roll befor you rolled the dice? Like if you were in box two this could happen in box three this could happen etc.

Willy

All is self explanatory on the map :

Search number = number you need to roll on 1d10 to find the enemy. Search number has a bonus of +1 if you have naval air bombers or carriers, and a penalty of -1 if weather is bad, and you have -1 to the roll if there are enemy convoys. Example : Section 4 with naval air bombers or carriers, against convoys = you find on a roll of 6 or less. Section 0 with naval air bombers or carriers = you find on a roll of 2 or less.

This roll and the sea box you and your opponent is are also used to calculate your surprise points.

Shore Bombardment modifier = penalty that each ship suffers when using its shore bombardment modifier to bombard enemies on shores. Asterisk means that you have an extra +1 penalty if it rains or worse (0* becomes 1, 1* becomes 2, 2* becomes 3, 0 stays 0). This modifier is also the bonus that each defender receive for each unit that is invading from this sea box section. None means that you can't shore bombard.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Froonp -- 4/26/2009 6:39:19 PM >

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RE: Sea boxes again - 4/26/2009 8:43:22 PM

willycube

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Thank you everyone good comments MR, Steve and Froonp, great map Froonp big help for an issue I am having trouble with.

Willy

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Post #: 15

RE: Sea boxes again - 4/27/2009 3:06:29 AM

Mad Russian

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From: Texas
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Good thing they all jumped in. My maps only have 0,1,2 and 3 sea boxes. Not a 4. I'll have to take a good hard look at that too.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Sea boxes again - 4/27/2009 6:55:28 AM

LiquidSky

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One reason to sit in the 1 or zero box: Your convoys are in the zero box, you want your escorts to go from the 1 box to the zero box at the end of the turn, so that if the axis get the initiative, your convoys are protected.

As well..sometimes it is better to have a mass amount of fighters that can react to protect your fleet in a lower box, when the enemy is only air. THis is a common trick the axis uses in the med.

Having a unit, just for purposes of supply, and you dont want to minimize the chance of being found.

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RE: Sea boxes again - 4/27/2009 8:08:15 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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I'll add one more reason for taking the zero box when you do not have to.

If you want to move a unit across a large expanse of sea, you probably will have to do it in two stages: going out in the naval movement phase and then returning to port (the destination port) in either a later naval movement phase or in the return to base phase. Either way, your whole purpose is to arrive at the destination, so occupying the zero box makes you less likely to be found.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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RE: Sea boxes again - 4/27/2009 9:25:50 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky
Having a unit, just for purposes of supply, and you dont want to minimize the chance of being found.

This is when not playing Limited Supply Overseas.

Without Limited Supply Overseas optional rule, any unit at sea allow for supply to go through that sea area. If there is no enemy unit, you need no unit to have supply go through. This is less realistic than Limited Supply Overseas.

(in reply to LiquidSky)

Post #: 19