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RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/3/2009 10:23:28 AM

Dili

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Joined: 9/10/2004
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quote:

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

Can you re-phrase it?

Sorry for not to be clear. The AE makes possible to for the editor to make a unit/ship retire from a scenario at certain date, return, retire etc. My question is if that is also possible with leaders?

(in reply to Yamato hugger)

Post #: 1231

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/3/2009 11:17:48 AM

Kereguelen

Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

Can you re-phrase it?

Sorry for not to be clear. The AE makes possible to for the editor to make a unit/ship retire from a scenario at certain date, return, retire etc. My question is if that is also possible with leaders?

(in reply to Dili)

Post #: 1232

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/3/2009 4:05:32 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: matt.buttsworth

Invincible Cities.

Has anything been done to stop a player massing troops in a city with supply or heavy industry and resources and then holding out indefinitely in a totally ahistorical situation?

Matthew Buttsworth

Why would there be? If a player puts everything he has into a single hex and the opposing player isnt smart enough to put enough troops to hold him there and then bomb him until his supplies run out then why should anything be put in to help him?

Heavy industry can be bombed also you know. Bombing ports/airfields will destroy supply. But the biggest thing is its a prison camp. By-pass it and leave it. Thats what I usually do with Manila/Bataan. Makes a nice air training academy.

It sounds like what YH says is in accord with reality. The only thing ahistorical about the situation suggested is that nobody has done it in real life, so it's not in history. The reason so one has done it in real life is that the steps YH outlined are real options and make doing it stupid.

Consider if Bataan had been supplied and fortified as desired in WWII. It still would have fallen eventually, it was just a matter of time. The same is true if Manila had been the redoubt instead. Leningrad held because they had enough supplies trickling in (in addition to local production) as it could not be completely cut off.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)

Post #: 1233

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/7/2009 1:03:59 AM

scout1

Posts: 2899
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline

Probably asked and answered .... but

Is ammunition a seaparate item for land combat as opposed to merely supply ? Have seen Manilla hold out for a year isolated which from an ammo standpoint is unlikely ..... but not under the original model .....

(in reply to Kereguelen)

Post #: 1234

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/7/2009 4:24:27 AM

Yamato hugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Probably asked and answered .... but

Is ammunition a seaparate item for land combat as opposed to merely supply ? Have seen Manilla hold out for a year isolated which from an ammo standpoint is unlikely ..... but not under the original model .....

No. Too hard to do with the current engine. Believe me, it was discussed.

_____________________________

(in reply to scout1)

Post #: 1235

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/24/2009 6:25:49 PM

HistoryGuy

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/7/2009
From: Woodbridge, VA
Status: offline

I do not know if you have found a great reference on Coast Artillery, but I am convinced that a recently updated "American Seacoast Defenses: A Reference Guide" by Mark A. Berhow would come in handy. It lists the Philippine Department's harbor defenses of Manila and Subic Bay as:

Fort Mills (Batteries) Corregidor Island
Hearn - one 12-inch long range barbette carriage, army gun
Smith - one 12-inch long range barbette carriage, army gun
Way - four 12-inch mortars
Geary - eight 12-inch mortars
Cheney - two 12-inch disappearing carriage guns
Wheeler - two 12-inch disappearing carriage guns
Crockett - two 12-inch disappearing carriage guns
Grubbs - two 10-inch disappearing carriage guns
RJ 43 - one 8-inch barbette carriage gun
Morrison - two 6-inch disappearing carriage guns
Ramsey - three 6-inch disappearing carriage guns
James - four 3-inch pedestal mounted guns
Keyes - two 3-inch pedestal mounted guns
Cushing - two 3-inch pedestal mounted guns
Hanna - two 3-inch pedestal mounted guns
Martin - two mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns
Hamilton (south) - two mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns
Kysor (north) - three mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns
Rock Point - two mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns
Sunset - four mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns
Stockade - two mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns
Monja - two mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns (one emplacement casemated)
Concepcion - three mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns
Levagood - two mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns

Fort Frank (batteries) Carabao Island
Greer - One 14-inch disappearing carriage gun
Crofton - one 14-inch disappearing carriage gun
Koehler - eight 12-inch mortars
Hoyle - two 3-inch pedestal mounted guns (removed before World War II)
Frank - four mobile 155-mm. GPF tractor drawn guns

Fort Drum (batteries) El Fraile Island
Wilson - two 14-inch turret mounted guns
Marshall - two 14-inch turret mounted guns
Roberts - two casemated 6-inch guns
McCrea - two casemated 6-inch guns
New Hoyle - one 3-inch pedestal mounted gun (installed 1941)

Fort Hughes (batteries) Caballo Island
Woodruff - one 14-inch disappearing carriage gun
Gillespie - one 14-inch disappearing carriage gun
Craighill - four 12-inch mortars
Leach - two 6-inch disappearing carriage guns
Fuger - two 3-inch pedestal mounted guns
Williams - two mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns
Hooker - one mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn gun

Fort Wint (batteries) Grande Island, Subic Bay
Warwick - two 10-inch disappearing carriage guns
Woodruff - two 6-inch disappearing carriage guns
Hall - two 6-inch disappearing carriage guns
Flake - four 3-inch pedestal mounted guns
Jewell - four 3-inch pedestal mounted guns

unnamed - four mobile 155-mm GPF tractor drawn guns (Ogonbolo, Bataan)

Looking over the coastal defenses for Pearl Harbor (alone), I could not help but notice they increased significantly between December 1941 and the following year - to include installation of three 14-inch guns salvaged from the USS Arizona at Kahe Point. Mobile batteries/sections of 240-mm howitzers were sited at Laie, Pupukea, and Makua while five batteries/sections of mobile 155-mm tractor drawn guns were sited at Brown's Camp, Barbers Point, Oneula Beach, Makau, and Kahe Point. And the list of other guns/batteries is endless since Hawaii became an armed camp starting in early 1942............

I never noticed the number of guns changing from one year to the next for coastal defenses in the stock WiTP - is this modelled in the new AE or do their strength/numbers remain constant? Given the lack of data (until Berhow published this book) I would assume the latter is true.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)

Post #: 1236

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/24/2009 6:34:18 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HistoryGuy

I do not know if you have found a great reference on Coast Artillery, but I am convinced that a recently updated "American Seacoast Defenses: A Reference Guide" by Mark A. Berhow would come in handy. It lists the Philippine Department's harbor defenses of Manila and Subic Bay as:

...

Oh, my...

Given that a CD gun was worth about four ship guns, and that CD guns weren't prone to sinking, I wouldn't want to take anything sinkable within extreme range of Manila/Subic Bay.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to HistoryGuy)

Post #: 1237

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/24/2009 7:29:42 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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Always glad to see your posts!

There were some additional guns not listed. Many of the forts had 75mm and at least one 155mm mobile batteries/beach defense guns. There were two 75mm and a 155mm at Fort Wint. These guns were the only ones saved when Fort Wint was abandoned. The 155mm became part of the 301st Field Artillery.

(in reply to HistoryGuy)

Post #: 1238

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/25/2009 12:37:57 AM

HistoryGuy

Posts: 80
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From: Woodbridge, VA
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Don,

I think the author stuck purely to coast defense weapons with a prepared firing site. He mentioned that the 155-mm GPFs used "Panama Mounts" which I assumed were concrete firing pads - which the guns you mentioned might not have used. I will post some more information on Hawaii, Alaska and Washington/Oregon areas soonest. Seeing how much stuff was crammed into Honolulu and Pearl Harbor would give pause to the staunchest hearted JAPANESE amphibious planner!

Best regards,

Mark

< Message edited by HistoryGuy -- 4/25/2009 12:52:31 AM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 1239

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/25/2009 3:55:07 PM

byron13

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Joined: 7/27/2001
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One has to be careful with adding all the historically present CD guns into the game. I have not seen how the CDs were historically sited, but I'm sure that many were sited to cover different avenues of approach. I would think this would especially be true with Oahu where you could approch the island from any point on the compass. I would think many or most were also sited to cover approaches to Pearl. Thus, most could be employed to repel, say, a bombardment mission, but relatively few could probably be used to repel an invasion of North Shore or along the windward coast. So the Arizona's guns located at Kahe Point wouldn't be able to shoot at anything rolling in on top of the guns located at Pupukea.

My point is that, while it would be fun to have every CD gun or fort present in the game, it would be unrealistic to permit each of these guns to fire in every engagement. The only solution is to total up the CD defenses, figure some kind of average that could shoot during any engagement, and have that average figure represented in the game that can shoot in every engagement. So, like it or not, the only realistic way to handle CDs on islands with a 360 degree front is to have a generic CD unit that does not represent what was actually present but represents what could have engaged the enemy in an average action.

The calculus is a little different when you've got restricted approaches like in Manila Bay or, if anyone wanted to do the research, an island with only one or two feasible invasion sites that the CD guns would be clustered around, or had 360 traverse like some batteries on Corregidor.

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Post #: 1240

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/25/2009 4:14:56 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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The CD fire routine does not allow all guns to fire at any one time. It randomly skips guns under the assumption that some can not bear. With a 40-mile hex, that is the best we can do.

(in reply to byron13)

Post #: 1241

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/25/2009 5:12:35 PM

byron13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

The CD fire routine does not allow all guns to fire at any one time. It randomly skips guns under the assumption that some can not bear. With a 40-mile hex, that is the best we can do.

Well, there you go. (You guys sure have thought of a lot of stuff) Still, a CD gun on Corregidor or Wake is more likely to engage than one on Oahu. No matter how you write the routine, it will be inaccurate for some situation. My only point - or concern - was that incorporating every CD gun that historically existed might result in the defenses being too strong, but sounds like you addressed the issue. The objective is to have a fair number of guns firing in a particular action; whether that's all of a generic small number or 30% of the historical number matters not to me - so long as the type and ratio of historical weapons are fairly represented.

< Message edited by byron13 -- 4/25/2009 5:13:42 PM >

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Post #: 1242

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/25/2009 5:24:36 PM

herwin

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

The CD fire routine does not allow all guns to fire at any one time. It randomly skips guns under the assumption that some can not bear. With a 40-mile hex, that is the best we can do.

Well, there you go. (You guys sure have thought of a lot of stuff) Still, a CD gun on Corregidor or Wake is more likely to engage than one on Oahu. No matter how you write the routine, it will be inaccurate for some situation. My only point - or concern - was that incorporating every CD gun that historically existed might result in the defenses being too strong, but sounds like you addressed the issue. The objective is to have a fair number of guns firing in a particular action; whether that's all of a generic small number or 30% of the historical number matters not to me - so long as the type and ratio of historical weapons are fairly represented.

I say, "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." We currently have nuclear shore bombardments, but the defending CD assets are nerfed! Remember, CD assets were concentrated to defend the vulnerable and valuable assets at specific locations on the coast, and were rarely spread around to defend everything. If the attacking fleet chose to shoot at the local bean field, that meant the CD assets had done their job.

Are AA assets handled in the same way?

Early in my career almost 40 years ago, my supervisors insisted I understand these issues. Of course, we were paid by the government to do good-quality operational analysis.

_____________________________

(in reply to byron13)

Post #: 1243

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/26/2009 8:42:00 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Of course, we were paid by the government to do good-quality operational analysis.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 1244

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/26/2009 9:24:09 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

Of course, we were paid by the government to do good-quality operational analysis.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

No, there are pockets of high competence in the military-industrial complex and the government. The work I was doing contributed directly to the fall of the Soviet Union.

_____________________________

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Post #: 1245

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/26/2009 4:24:45 PM

Shark7

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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

If the attacking fleet chose to shoot at the local bean field, that meant the CD assets had done their job.

But an army does march on its stomach, remove the food and demoralize the enemy. Perhaps the local bean field is the most valuable target after all.

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 4/26/2009 4:25:09 PM >

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 1246

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/27/2009 7:07:23 PM

HistoryGuy

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/7/2009
From: Woodbridge, VA
Status: offline

Another dose of coast defense information........my posts are only intended to "uncover' the gun or battery that might have been missed.

Pearl Harbor, HI

FORT Barrette (Kapolei)
Battery Hatch - two 16-inch long range barbette carriage (Navy) guns

FORT Weaver (Puuloa)
Battery Williston - two 16-inch long range barbette carriage (Army) guns
Battery Weaver - four mobile 155-mm. GPF guns with Panama Mounts (concrete pads)
AMTB No. 1 (Added in 1942) - two pedestal mounted 90-mm guns

FORT Kamehameha (Queen Emma Point)
Battery Hasbrouck - eight 12-inch mortars (dismantled 1943)
Battery Closson - two 12-inch long range barbette carriage (Army) guns
Battery Selfridge - two 12-inch disappearing carriage guns
Battery Jackson - two 6-inch disappearing carriage guns (dismantled 1943)
Battery Chandler - two 3-inch pedestal mounted, casemated guns (dismantled 1942)
Battery Hawkins - two 3-inch pedestal mounted guns (dismantled 1943)
Battery Ahua (added 1942) - three 5-inch
AMTB No. 2 (added 1943) - two 90-mm. pedestal mounted guns
Battery Kam - four 155-mm. GPF mobile cannon w/Panama mounts

Puu O Hulu Miltary Reservation
Battery Hulu (established 1942) - two 7-inch casemated (navy) guns
Battery #303 (established 1942) - two 6-inch long range barbette carriage with shield

Other locations: Pearl Harbor

Battery Arizona (established 1945) - three 14-inch Navy Turret at Kahe Point
Battery Burgess (established 1942) - four 8-inch Navy Turrets (x2) near Aliamanu Crater
Brown's Camp (established 1937) - four 8-inch railway guns near Kahe Point
Battery "Homestead" (established 1942) - two 5-inch naval guns, pedestal mounted, at Makua
Battery Oneula (established 1942) - two 5-inch naval guns, pedestal mounted, at Oneula (near Ewa) Note: dismantled in 1944
Battery Awanui - four GPF 155-mm. mobile cannon w/Panama mounts vic Brown's camp
Barber's Point - four GPF 155-mm. mobile cannon w/Panama mounts (dismantled mid-1942)
Battery X-Ray (established 1942) - four GPF 155-mm. mobile cannon w/Panama mounts vic Oneula Beach NOTE: Dismantled 1944
Battery Homestead #2 (established 1942) - four GPF 155-mm. mobile cannon w/Panama mounts vice Oneula Beach (dismantled 1944)
Battery Kahe Point (established 1942) - four GPF 155-mm. mobile cannon w/Panama mounts vice Kahe Point (dismantled 1944)

Harbor Defenses of Honolulu

FORT Ruger (Diamond Head)
Battery Harlow - eight 12-inch mortars (dismantled 1943)
Battery Birkhimer - four 12-inch mortars (dismantled 1943)
Battery Granger Adams - two 8-inch barbette carriage guns
Battery #407 (established 1942) - two 8-inch long range barbette carriage (navy) guns
Battery Ruger (established 1942) - four GPF 155-mm. mobile cannons w/Panama mount

Wiliwilinui Ridge Military Reservation:
Battery Kirkpatrick (established 1942) - four 8-inch naval guns (x2 naval turrets)

FORT DeRussy (Waikiki Beach)
Battery Randolph - two 14-inch disappearing carriage guns (dismantled 1944)
Battery Dudley - two 6-inch disappearing carriage guns
ATMB No. 5 (established 1943) - two 90-mm. fixed pedestal mounted guns

FORT Armstrong (Kaakaukukui Reef)
Battery Tiernon - two 3-inch pedestal mounted guns (dismantled 1943)

Sand Island Military Reservation
Sand Battery - four 155-mm. GPF mobile cannon w/Panama mounts (dismantled 1943)
Harbor Battery (established 1942) - four 7-inch pedestal mounted naval guns (dismantled 1944)
ATMB No. 4 (established 1943) - two 90-mm. fixed, pedestal mounted guns

Other locations (Honolulu)

Battery #304 (established 1942) - two 6-inch shielded barbette carriage guns (near Punchbowl)
Battery #305 (established 1942 - two 6-inch shielded barbette carriage guns (near Koke Saddle)
Battery Punchbowl (established 1943) - four GPF 155-mm. mobile cannon w/Panama mounts
Koko Head Battery (established 1941) - two GPF 155-mm. mobile cannon w/Panama mounts (dismantled 1942)
School Battery (established 1942) - four GPF 155-mm. mobile cannon w/Panama mounts (near Kamehameha School) - dismantled 1944

Harbor Defenses of North Shore and Kaneohe Bay

Beginning in 1941, a considerable number of CD guns were emplaced in this area. The initial batteries were located near Kunia (2 x 240-mm. howitzers), Kole Kole Pass (2 x 240-mm howitzers), Paalaa, (Battery Quadropod with 2 x 240-mm. howitzers) and Kunia (Battery Kalihi w/2 x 240-mm. howitzers). In the north shore area, a battery of 4x 155-mm. GPF mobile cannon w/Panama mounts was sited nera Kahuku Ranch, along with a second, similiary equipped battery (since 1939!) sited at the Ashley Military Reservation. Four 8-inch railway guns and a battery of four 155-mm. GPF mobile cannon (w/Panama mounts) were emplaced at Kawailoa Military Reservation beginning in 1940. The only other batter(ies) that might be pre-Pearl Harbor vintage (reference is undated) is Battery #408 with two 8-inch long range barbette carriage (Navy) guns and four eight inch railway mount guns vic Paumalu Military Reservation.

After Pearl Harbor, the North Shore and Kaneohe Bay defenses were dramatically reinforced. They added four 8-inch Railway guns at Fort Hase (Mokapu Point) in 1942, but dismantled them in 1944. Batteries Riggs (Opaeula Military Reservation) and Battery Ricker (Brodie Camp Military Reservation), each consisting of two naval turrets mounting a pair of 8-inch guns, were also emplaced in 1942. Then you can toss in a two gun battery of 5-incher naval pedestal mounted guns at Kahana Bay, Battery Wailia (two 3-inch pedestal mounted guns) at Wailia Point, Battery Loko with four 155-mm GPF mobile cannon vic Kualoa Ranch, and a pair of 7-inch naval casemated guns at Ahukini, Kauai Island and Monument, Kauai Island, respectively. The list goes on with more batteries being added (to include another turret from the USS Arizona at Ulupau Head in 1945).

There were a number of temporary semi-mobile 240-mm howitzer emplacements listed for Hawaii between 1937 through 1941, but I did not include them since I was not sure if they were still operational post-December 7, 1941.

San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco (in addition to Puget Sound and Columbia River) are also surprisingly well-defended as of December 1941. No wonder nobody tried to land on the West Coast!

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 1247

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/27/2009 9:08:38 PM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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Mark

If you happen to have access to it, I'd love to see the data on the 60th CA (AA), especially anything on Battery Boston...

(in reply to HistoryGuy)

Post #: 1248

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/27/2009 11:10:35 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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Here are some "Panama Mounts"..I know there are also threads on themmin the RHS threads in scenerios..

http://www.tanignak.com/Long%20Island%20Major%20Sites%20Deer%20Point.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/3495/FortHistory.html

http://www.lago-colony.com/AMERICANS_IN_ARUBA/About_American_Troops.htm

< Message edited by m10bob -- 4/27/2009 11:13:20 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 1249

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 12:16:37 AM

HistoryGuy

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/7/2009
From: Woodbridge, VA
Status: offline

Don,

I will take a look tomorrow when I go back to work. Not a problem.

And NOW I know what a Panama mount is!

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 1250

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 3:21:21 AM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HistoryGuy

Don,

I will take a look tomorrow when I go back to work. Not a problem.

And NOW I know what a Panama mount is!

Thanks.

Here's what I know so far. The 60th was a semi-mobile AA Regiment, probably organized generally along the lines of TO 4-111. The most recent release of this TO was August, 1941 but I can not find a copy of that. The previous release was November, 1940 but the 60th did not exactly match that TO.

As a semi-mobile AA Regiment it would have two AA Gun Battalions and one Automatic Weapons Battalion. Plus an HQ battery.

An AA Gun battalion would have three gun batteries, each of 4 3in M3 AA guns, and a searchlight battery. The November, 1940 TOE also included 4 50Cal MG in each AA Gun Battery. There is some variation in the assignment of the 50Cal MGs in the various AA Battalions and I am not sure which was used by the 60th. The basic allotment was one 50Cal to each 3inch gun, to provide defense against low level attackers. In some variations the MGs were directly assigned to the 3inch battery - either one-to-one in each firing section or as a separate platoon. In others the 50Cal MGs used to protect the 3inch AA guns were actually assigned to the Automatic Weapons Battalion. Some variations also had 50Cal to protect the searchlights, usually allocated at the ratio of one-for-one, but not always directly assigned to the searchlight battery or even the AA Gun Battalion (that is, a separate unit from the Automatic Weapons Battalion would be assigned).

The Automatic Weapons Battalion would normally be authorized a large number of 37mm AA guns, but I believe the 60th's Auto Weps Battalion had only 50Cal MG - probably four batteries of 12 guns each.

It appears that the 60th may have had a modified structure due to it's assignment. Some, but not all, of the 3inch AA Batteries appear to have had 50cal directly assigned. Battery Boston (B, 1st AA Gun Battalion) appears to have had 2 50Cal MG directly assigned, while two other 3inch batteries had four 30Cal MG and one had a mixture of 30 and 50 Cal. The remaining 3inch batteries do not appear to have had any MG assigned, although one had a battery of four 50Cal MG from the Automatic Weapons Battalion co-located. Note that there are no 30Cal MGs in the November, 1940 TO.

I have the battery dispositions at a point in time (probably just before Bataan fell) but not the official TOE. If I had to guess at an official TOE it would be:
two AA Battalions, each of 3 4-gun batteries of 3inch AA and circa 12 searchlights (no MGs)
one Auto Weps battalion with 4 12-gun batteries of 50Cal MG, mostly intended to be allocated to protect the 3inch guns and searchlights.

Battery Boston was close to Battery Wheeler (59th CA, Battery C, with two 12inch Guns in Disappearing Mounts). It was one of the batteries that was issued high altitude ammunition, and the battery to which my cousin Jimmy was assigned.

(in reply to HistoryGuy)

Post #: 1251

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 3:35:02 AM

Blackhorse

Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HistoryGuy

Another dose of coast defense information........my posts are only intended to "uncover' the gun or battery that might have been missed.�

Pearl Harbor, HI

[snip]

San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco (in addition to Puget Sound and�Columbia River) are also surprisingly well-defended as of December 1941.� No wonder nobody tried to land on the West Coast!

I think you'll be pleased by the improvement in Coastal Defense from Stock to AE. We put in a lot of effort trying to get the type and # of guns correct. It wasn't always easy -- many sources count "mounts" but frequently, the mounts for older WWI-era guns and mortars had been stripped of their weapons.

All the major US "Harbor Defense" units (except Manila) upgrade during the war as they did historically; generally adding a couple of 14" or 16" guns, a lot of AA, a battery or two of 90mm DP, and perhaps some 8" and 155mm GPF, while dismantling the old 10" and 12" guns/mortars and the WWI-era 3" and 6" guns. Unfortunately, the additional battleship-sniping guns generally don't arrive until 1943 or 1944 -- and if the Japanese are threatening the Pacific Coast in 1944, you are in a world of hurt!

_____________________________

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Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to HistoryGuy)

Post #: 1252

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 9:08:47 AM

m10bob

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In the event you needed/wanted online info ref the coastal arty at Corregidor?

http://corregidor.org/btty_histories/control/open.htm

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Post #: 1253

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 10:32:32 AM

Blackhorse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

In the event you needed/wanted online info ref the coastal arty at Corregidor?

http://corregidor.org/btty_histories/control/open.htm

We did review that source, thanks.

I was somewhat surprised at the variations among sources. For example, two sources indicated that there was a battery of 4" CD guns on Oahu. Others, including Berhow, do not. Fortunately, the differences tend to be "on the margins".

The question of the 4-inchers on Oahu was made moot by a technicality. Each unit has a maximim of 20 slots for devices. The Oahu "Harbor Defense" LCU would have had 21 (!) different devices if we included the 2x 4" battery. So I rolled them into the 3" guns, instead.

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Post #: 1254

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 2:24:03 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

In the event you needed/wanted online info ref the coastal arty at Corregidor?

http://corregidor.org/btty_histories/control/open.htm

Thanks, this site is an old friend and one of the most detailed sources for data on the various CA Regiments there. I believe the detailed data on the 60th CA relates to a period around the end on Bataan and before the heavy shelling of Corregidor began.

This was the source of most of my data for post 1251.

(in reply to m10bob)

Post #: 1255

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 5:03:44 PM

HistoryGuy

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Per Don's request about 60th CA (AA) Regt...........

Source: "Report of Operations of USAFFE and USFIP in the Philippine Islands 1941 - 1942 -- references to the 60th CA are included throughout this report; report located in Resources Branch (CMH), Annex VIII

"The Antiaircraft Defense Command, Harbor Defenses of Manila Bay"

"Conduct of Operations - 8 Dcember 1941 - 6 May 1942"

1. In addition to performing the usual functions pertaining to antiaircraft artillery defense, the Antiaircraft Defense Command operated an air warning service for all defense and other personnel on the fortified islands of Manila Bay and naval and other vessels nearby.

2. Operations of the active defense were governed by the provisions of War Department manuals; directives by the harbor defense commander; previously published annexes of the "War Plan Orange" HDM and SB; and a few "Standing Operating Procedure" directives promulagated by Antiaircraft Defense Headquarters and relating to such matters as tactical organization, the conduct of 3-inch gun fire, the conduct of automatic weapons fire, ammunition reports and supply, battle reserves of gasoline, "flash" system and certain other communications procedure(s). Those directives are supplanted or modified to the minimum extent necessary and only as occasion demanded, by orders and/or instructions through the normal channels of command.

3. The command was organized initially as follows:

(1) Headquarters: AA Defense Commander: CO, 60th CA (AA)
Staff: Regimental Staff, 60th CA (AA), augmented
Troops: Dets, Hq Btry, 1st and 2d Bns, 60th CA (AA)

(2) Mills-Hughes Gun Defense:
Commander: CO, 1st Bn, 60th CA (AA)
Troops: Fort Mills - 1st Bn, 60th CA (AA) with Btrys F & H attached
Fort Hughes - Battery I, 59th CA (HD)
Armament: 24 3-inch AA guns (mobile)

(3) Fort Drum Gun Defense:
Commander: CO, AA Det, Btry E, 59th CA (HD)
Troops: Det Btry E, 59th CA (HD)
Armament: 2 3-inch AA guns (1917) (fixed)

(4) Fort Frank Gun Defense:
Commander: CO, Btry E, 91st CA (PS)
Troops: Btry E, 91st CA (PS)
Armament: 4 3-inch AA guns (mobile)

(5) Bataan Gun Defense Group:
Commander: CO, 2d Bn, 60th CA (AA)
Troops: 2nd Bn, 60th CA (AA) less Btrys E, F, and H
Armament: 4 3-inch AA guns (mobile)

(6) Machine Gun Defense:
Commander: 3d Bn, 60th CA (AA) (Note - 60th CA reorganized in May 1941 into three battalion regiment)
Troops: 3d Bn, 60th CA (AA)
Armament: 48 50-caliber Machine Guns (Tripod Mount)

(7) Searchlight Defense:
Commander: Searchlight Officer, AA Defense
Troops: Btrys A and E, 60th CA (AA)
Material: 18 60-inch Searchlight Units, 18 Sound Locators, and 4 SCR-268 RDF sets

(8) Antiaircraft Artillery Intelligence
Service (and Warning Service)
Troops: Dets, Regt and Bn Hqs Btrys, 60th CA (AA)

b. The antiaircraft machine gun defenses of Forts Frank, Drum, and Hughes functioned under their respective Fort commanders. From time to time, the 3-inch battery at Fort Frank was released by Harbor Defense to the Fort Commander for firing against land targets in Cavite Province.

c. Beacuse of the reduced strength of the 60th CA (AA), there was not sufficient personnel to man all six of the SCR-268 sets and all of the thirty searchlights assigned to Batteries A and E. Furthermore inasmuch as defense troops for the Cavite-Batangas headland never occupied that area, - which fell into enemy hands almost immediately after the occupation of Manila on 2 January - extention of the searchlight defense into the area was impracticable. In the circumstances twelve of the searchlight units assigned were not needed except for replacement purposes.

4. For purposes of facility, rapidity, and clarity in voice communications, batteries of the Antiaircraft Defense were assigned the following code names which, for convenience, will be used henceforth in this report in referring to particular batteries:

Battery A, 60th CA (AA) - Albany
Battery B, 60th CA (AA) - Boston
Battery C, 60th CA (AA) - Chicago
Battery D, 60th CA (AA) - Denver
Battery E, 60th CA (AA) - Erie
Battery F, 60th CA (AA) - Flint
Battery G, 60th CA (AA) - Globe
Battery H, 60th CA (AA) - Hartford
Battery I, 60th CA (AA) - Indiana
Battery K, 60th CA (AA) - Kingston
Battery L, 60th CA (AA) - Lansing
Battery M, 60th CA (AA) - Mobile
AA Detachment, Battery E, 50th CA (HD) - Exeter
Battery I, 59th Coast Artillery (HD) - Idaho
Battery E, 91st CA (PS) - Ermita
Battery C, 91st CA (PS) - Cebu

5. On 8 December 1941, Mobile Battery was detached by higher authority and, at 7:15 PM, proceeded via the harbor boat "MAMBOUCAL," without motor transportation, to Manila where, in accordance with a previously prepared ("Sixth Sector") plan, it was disposed to provide antiaircraft machinegun protection of important localities in the Manila area, including Nichols Field.

Personalities (Regt Cdr, Regt XO and Bn Cdrs):

59th CA (AA) Col. Paul D. Bunker, Col. Valentine P. Foster, Lt. Col. Dwight D. Edison, Lt. Col. Armand D. Hopkins, Lt. Col. Lewis S. Kirkpatrick.

60th CA (AA) Col. Theodore M. Chase, Lt. Col. Arnold D. Amoroso, Lt. Col. Elvin L. Barr, Lt. Col. Howard E.C. Breitung, Lt. Col. Leslie G. Ross.

91st Coast Artillery (PS) Col. Joseph P. Kohn, Lt. Col. E. Carl Engelhart, Lt. Col. Floyd E. Mitchell, Lt. Col. Will K. Stennis.

92d Coast Artillery (PS) Col. Napoleon Boudreau, Col. Octave DeCarre, Lt. Col. Lloyd W. Biggs, and Lt. Col. Albert D. Miller.

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 1256

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 5:44:14 PM

Don Bowen

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Thanks Mark.

This answers most of my questions. The only one left is an official TOE one - I can not find any TOE that matches the 48-MG 3rd Battalion. Still looking...

Rest of y'all feel free to help!

Don

(in reply to HistoryGuy)

Post #: 1257

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 6:15:23 PM

HistoryGuy

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Don,

The official MTOE number for all three battalions in the 60th CA (AA) was SRC 44 035C 6002 (methinks). However, based on what I saw of the process of how the regiment gained a second battalion in August 1925, what I think we have here is the old "pea and the shell game". For example:

On 24 August 1925, the 60th CA (AA) reorganized as a two-battalion regiment. The Regimental HQ and HQ Battery was activated using the 1st Battalion Hqs. The Regimental Service Company was organized as an inactive unit. The 1st Battalion Hqs was inactivated (as a billpayer for the regtl headquarters) while the 3d Platoon of Battery A was inactivated. Battery B remained active, while Battery C and Battery D were organized as inactive units The 2nd Battalion headquarters was organized an an inactive unit, Battery E as an active unit, and Batteries F, G, and H as inactive units. The Regiment's strength as of 31 December 1938 totaled 18 officers and 597 enlisted. Compare this to the authorized Battalion MTOE of 20/4/338 (not counting the regimental HHC or Service Company). From what I could tell before I got TOO confused by all the organizational orders, it seemed as if a 3d Battalion was organized (as an inactive unit) in April 1929 - but I might be wrong there. The inactive Service and Medical companies were authorized in May 1941, when the Regiment probably also had the inactive headquarters batteries and firing batteries activated. I cannot see the required equipment and personnel getting there in time to flesh out three full battalions when the 60th CA (AA) had been operating at basically 1-1/2 battalion strength for seventeen years. So, I would bet that they activated the 3d Battalion with equipment authorized "In Lieu Of" 3-inch guns, e.g. tripod mounted .50 caliber MGs. Four firing batteries x 12 MGs (three platoons of four guns each) = 48.

< Message edited by HistoryGuy -- 4/28/2009 6:16:36 PM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 1258

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 6:24:00 PM

HistoryGuy

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It appears that what I found was the first few pages of the "Moore Report" located at:
http://corregidor.org/chs_moorerpt/annexf.htm

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Post #: 1259

RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread - 4/28/2009 6:55:23 PM

HistoryGuy

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AH HAH!� Now the light bulb goes off........you need the MTOE document.

The regimental MTOE (4-111) is dated 1 November 1940 with change 1 dated 5 August 1941.� The changes apply only to lines 13, 26, 27, and 44.� These essentially resulted in: Staff sergeant�authorizations increasing by + 6 in the x2 gun battalions (4-115), total enlisted strength increasing by + 6 in the two gun battalions, aggregate total in the x2 gun battalions increasing by +6 and authorizations for .45 caliber pistols increasing by +6.

The semi-mobile AA regiment consisting of a regimental headquarters and band, headquarters battery (TO 4-112), x2 75-mm gun battalions (TO 4-115), 1 37-mm gun battalion (TO 4-125), attached medical and attached chaplain.

The 37-mm gun battalion is authorized 33 officers,�0 warrants, and 698 enlisted soldiers.� Major equipment end items include 32 37-mm AA guns (no .50 calibers are authorized, but coincidentally, there are 12 authorized .50 calibers in each 75-mm gun battalion - so I think they DID cross-level)� The 37-mm battalion also has six motorcycles, five 1-ton cargo trailers, seven 1/2 ton command/reconnaissance cars, six 1/2 ton pick up trucks,�twenty eight�1-1/2 ton cargo trucks, twelve 2-1/2 ton cargo trucks, sixty three .45 caliber pistols, 22 Browning automatic rifles, and 637 .30 caliber rifles.

The MTOE for the battalion is also dated 1 November 1940.� It breaks down the firing batteries as: eight 37-mm. AA guns, one motorcycle with side car, one 1-ton cargo trailer, one 1/2 ton command and reconnaissance car, one 1/2-ton pick up truck, three 1-1/2 ton cargo trucks, eleven pistols, no BARs, and 143 rifles.� Battery personnel include six officers and 148 enlisted for an aggregate total of 154.� Four batteries (T/O 4-28) are authorized per battalion.�� The headquarters battery has nine officers and 97 enlisted, along with an "enlisted cadre" of 67 personnel in a separate column.� There are no 37-mm guns in the HHB, but it does have two motorcycles with side cars, one 1-ton trailer, three 1/2 ton command and reconnaissance cars, two 1/2 ton pickup trucks, sixteen 1-1/2 ton cargo trucks, twelve 2-1/2 ton cargo trucks, nineteen pistols, 22 BARs, and 65 rifles.

Interesting thing is that the 37-mm. battery has a different T/O number than the MG Battery (T/O 4-27 dated 1 November 1940)

To make things more interesting, the Coast Artillery Automatic Weapons Battalion T/O 4-125 changed on 1 April 1942 to reflect eight 37-mm guns and eight .50 caliber machineguns per battery (T/O 4-127), which also now has three 1-ton trailers, two jeeps, one 3/4 ton command and reconnaissance car, one 3/4 ton weapons carrier, and three 2-1/2 ton trucks. Personnel totalled six officers and 157 enlisted armed with fiteen pistols and 148 rifles.

< Message edited by HistoryGuy -- 4/28/2009 7:26:23 PM >

(in reply to HistoryGuy)

Post #: 1260