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- 5/22/2002 3:17:58 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Shipping Costs are way out of line. Asking folks to wait 8 days or more (and that's using your cheepest option) and having them pay a minimum surcharge of 22% of the purchase price is outragious! [/QUOTE]

Go and tell tha the parcels and mail services, we do not make those prices and did our very best to get discounts on the shippment costs and got some.

[QUOTE]hire a distributer to put it on store shelves for the price of 40 bucks, or eliminate the media altogether and sell the game via download (all the crap that's on the CD now) for between $25 and $30. [/QUOTE]

Sorry to say we do not have the bribe money for that few shelv places.

Can you imagine what investments in hardware and bandwith the download feature means? At the moment it is not possible for us to provide the costumers with a decent bandwith to make any download feature for our "crap" reasonable. Ever thougt about the people with small bandwith modem? Not everybody is lucky enough to have cable and or ADSL.

We pay a huge bunch of money each month to keep this site loading fast and the important downloads available.

[QUOTE]I realize this may be a little tough to swallow[/QUOTE]

No it´s not, as you forget about a few little things. If we had a decent stock of cash back under our beds I would say yes, let´s invest that, the guy is right, but unfortunatly we´re at the beginning of all this and do not have the cash in spare ;)

_____________________________

Marc von Martial
instagram stream

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 31
- 5/22/2002 11:41:07 PM   
Cranex

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 5/16/2002
From: Rainy Vancouver,Canada
Status: offline 		First, if you provide "key" to unlock STUN game, why can't STUNDG do the same.

Second, I have now have an ADSL high speed modem.

Third, is it expensive for your company to re-release a longer STUNDG demo? Without knowing how the game plays, I won't buy.

Fourth, If I buy the STUN "key", does STUN have the same features as STUNDG? (Only worse graphics)

Does STUN or STUNDG have ground combat or captureing planets? Ground combat??? Is there actual ground combat
like SE4, Moo2, etc....

Fifth, I would appreciate someone who has the STUNDG game,
to give a good description of what the games features are..

FINALLY, Railroad Tycoon Demo allows the player to play only 2 scenarios, however, you have all the abilities of a non demo game. I can play for 12 hours, and really get a feel for the game, and if I want more scenarios, I buy. I will never buy another game without thoroughly playing a good demo. I have too many games collecting dust on my bookshelf. No more. Basically, I prefer turn-based games. MAKE YOUR DEMO LONGER SO YOU CAN PLAY ONLY ONE RACE TO COMPLETION. DON'T EXCLUDE ASSAULT PODS (WHOSE STUPID IDEA WAS THAT) .

THE SHIPPING VS. UNLOCK KEY METHOD IS IRRELAVANT! aLTHOUGH i PREFER THE LATTER SINCE YOU HAVE AN OPTION TO BUY THE UNLOCK KEY WITH THE FIRST GAME, STUN.

BOTTOM LINE: IF I ENJOY A DEMO, I WILL BUY!!!@!@!@
SHOW OFF YOUR PRODUCT WITH A GOOD DEMO, OR BANKRUPTCY

how is the AI? stupid, smart?
how many colonies can you own?
how big is the galaxy?
How many systems?
How long does it take to play a game? 4 hrs, 5 days, two weeks?
Are there small universes, medium, large?
What customization is available?
Is there ground combat?
Any animations?
Is spying fun?
Can you negotiate with AI?

Can a player fill me in?;) ;) ;)

_____________________________

The major problem with human beings is that they are unable to sit in a chair quietly and silently by themselves in a room for an hour doing nothing except observing their mind.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 32
- 5/23/2002 3:51:10 AM   
Vaaish

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/23/2001
From: Pensacola, Fl
Status: offline 		Animations? Such as a cutscene? if so, yes Though I wish I had had about a month or two more to work on it.

yes you can customize elements, like the ship graphics and aliens.

_____________________________

-Vaaish

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 33
- 5/23/2002 5:18:01 AM   
screamer

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: The Netherlands,
Status: offline 		thank god there are demos i downloaded the strategic command demo from battlefront and now i know NONO not for me rrrrrrr

_____________________________

poep

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 34
Well... - 5/23/2002 10:27:51 AM   
Kahn

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 5/11/2002
From: Abingdon, MD
Status: offline 		I was a little reticent on publishing my comments, because of the way in which they might ruffle some fethers, but you did ask. I realize (having run two small businesses myself some time ago) that a business can be much more than a means to make money to those who have started and nurtured it throughout it's inception. It is a vision, a dream or concept of it's creator.

Unfortunately, some folks can't get away from the emotions tied to the business to see clearly, a pitfall that has lead a significant number of businesses to ruin. But you must always keep in mind that a business is nothing more than a market entity. No market, no business! A business is always a slave to the market, not the other way around. This concept is true not just for businesses, but in everyday life.

To illistrate, my family and I recently looked at a very large Victorian mansion on a 1.1 acres that was priced at $175,000 (that's a really great price for a home of that size). It appeared to need some repair from the outside, but still had solid oak and mahogany beams and woodwork in fine condition (you can't get 16" x 16" x 30' solid oak beams anymore, not since the 1930's). Tiffany stained glass, most in excellent condition. Heck, just the front doors, various examples of stained glass, and the large crystal chandeller alone are worth as much as the price of the house. We thought the house was perfect. It was only after looking over the inspector's report that we decided not to buy. Seems one of those Oak beams (one of the four that are the main structural support for the house) had termite damage, and asbestos was present in the basement. The point is that event though the house appealed to my emotions (and still does), my logic told me that just the structural restoration alone would run well over the $100,000 I had budgeted for all the restorations.

The money problems you allude to is precisely why your best bet is to go with the Internet sales business model. I willing to bet that for a fraction of the cost that you expend in producing hard media, packaging, and logistics, you could pay for space on a server that has a dedicated T3 connection! You gotta stop thinking inside the box that you've placed yourself in. You don't have to buy the server and T1 or T3 yourself and place it on your premises. I must get spamed at least 6 times a month with offers from server farms that are willing to lease you 100 Megs for only a single digit percentage of what you sell! That's part of the beauty of the Internet model, you don't have to even be in the same country as the server that runs your website (I presume you should know this already by your statement about this forum). And now is the perfect time to find one of these deals, the server farm business is hurting for cash right now due to the "dot com" crash.

If I didn't care about you and your company, I wouldn't have bothered to spend my time to respond to your question in the first place. I think you should say a thank you every night before retiring to Andrew for giving you such a good product to sell. If it weren't for him, I wouldn't have even heard of this site, nor spent the exorbitant total cost to enrich you, him, and UPS. We need more small publishers in the business to succeed so that the marketplace doesn't become dominated by a few, unimaginative companies that have carte blanche to release uninspired, buggy crap with no customer support. Believe it or not, I'm on your side.

_____________________________

"The one you have to watch out for is the one you don't see comming!"
[B]Kahn[/B]

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 35
- 5/24/2002 4:06:12 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		I will do just that, THANKS ANDREW!

and you, Kahn, for thought provoking reply...

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 36
- 5/24/2002 9:07:44 AM   
Kahn

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 5/11/2002
From: Abingdon, MD
Status: offline 		You're quite welcome :)

_____________________________

"The one you have to watch out for is the one you don't see comming!"
[B]Kahn[/B]

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 37
Pay for Download - 6/1/2002 7:25:10 PM   
Ironside

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 6/1/2002
Status: offline 		I live in England and can't afford the shipping fees. It would bring the total to around $55. Not cheap. However I would be happy to download a version and pay for an activation key for $30 or $35.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 38
- 6/2/2002 2:52:18 AM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		I d/l'd but am not ready to buy (yet anyway).

I can't offer much new, as a fan of indies, other than to echo the above points:

1. demo too short; doesn't leave me wanting more. Example- the recent Strategic Command demo has an entire year of game play, typically ending with Moscow about to be taken! Talk about motivation for WW2 grogs!

2. Font is horrible (at least for us over age 40 players)

3. No unlock to full version. This is the worst part of all to me. Example- recently bought GENEFORGE from Spiderwebsoftware.com. Not a world beater RTS, but it had a long, immersive demo, a instant unlock upon payment, and a $25 price tag (out the door).

Hope this helps. :)

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 39
- 6/3/2002 12:30:02 AM   
madmax88

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Willgamer wrote:
2. Font is horrible...

Patch 1.2 for the complete version comes with mods that allow you to change the font. The example included is a much better alternative to the old font, and a lot easier to read.

_____________________________

- -mAdMAx

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 40
- 6/3/2002 3:09:46 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I live in England and can't afford the shipping fees. It would bring the total to around $55. [/QUOTE]

You should try our international dealers ;)

_____________________________

Marc von Martial
instagram stream

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 41
- 6/6/2002 2:47:11 AM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		Marc S wrote:

[QUOTE]Ever thougt about the people with small bandwith modem? Not everybody is lucky enough to have cable and or ADSL. [/QUOTE]

FWIW, I regard that as an [B]astonishing[/B] reply! So if there's a large group of on-line buyers that could be tapped into with download and unlock at perhaps an under $35 price point, you would refuse to make a profit in the name of "fairness"!?!

Disregarding that I think you're confusing "having" cable, as opposed to "having access" to high speed internet, you've

[B]already[/B] uploaded 10,000 copies of this. Wouldn't it have made sense to convert a portion of those uploads to dollars with an unlock?

If tiny outfit like Spiderweb can do it, why can't you?

Ready to buy at $35 + unlock; anyone join me?

:)

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 42
- 6/7/2002 12:54:25 AM   
vbmark

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 4/3/2001
From: FL
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by willgamer
Marc S wrote:

Ready to buy at $35 + unlock; anyone join me? [/QUOTE]

I was thinking more around the sharware price of $25 for a downloadable, unlock version. Isn't it the same game upgraded?

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 43
- 6/10/2002 4:02:16 AM   
Nixuebrig

 

Posts: 1138
Joined: 1/2/2001
From: (c) Lübeck, now Berlin
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]

You should try our international dealers ;) [/B][/QUOTE]


even there they arse sold for a cut throat 69 EUR.

That is about 140 ,- DM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I first considered this as a joke, but they meant that in honest.

And to be honest, Starships isn`t worth that price. If you consider the avarage price for games at about 40 EUR(or 80 DM)
you just have two count one and one to see why something is going wrong.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 44
- 6/10/2002 3:39:22 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]you just have two count one and one to see why something is going wrong.[/QUOTE]


Why don´t you start to count?
SUDG is at your suggested price,

$ 39.99 ~ € 42

the rest is import/export fees and shipping (the dealers have to pay that too) , something we have no or little influence on.


[QUOTE]I was thinking more around the sharware price of $25 for a downloadable, unlock version. Isn't it the same game upgraded?[/QUOTE]

No it isn´t.

_____________________________

Marc von Martial
instagram stream

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 45
- 6/10/2002 3:44:50 PM   
Nixuebrig

 

Posts: 1138
Joined: 1/2/2001
From: (c) Lübeck, now Berlin
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]


Why don´t you start to count?
SUDG is at your suggested price,

$ 39.99 ~ € 42

the rest is import/export fees and shipping (the dealers have to pay that too) , something we have no or little influence on.


[/B][/QUOTE]


LOL. tell em they can get the taxes back from their government. Fees will be significantly les per unit, when they order more then one game per order. And I don`t think the resellers will have to pay the same price I would have to pay when I order it directly from Matrix. Would be ridicolous.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 46
- 6/10/2002 6:45:52 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]LOL. tell em they can get the taxes back from their government. Fees will be significantly les per unit, when they order more then one game per order. And I don`t think the resellers will have to pay the same price I would have to pay when I order it directly from Matrix. Would be ridicolous.[/QUOTE]

I see you´re a very smart person. I bet our dealers would never have thought about the possibilities.

In fact we want to squezze the last drop of blood out of our "customers", we and our dealers make those fees and shipping costs up to get a little extra, you know.

_____________________________

Marc von Martial
instagram stream

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 47
- 6/10/2002 7:07:49 PM   
Spooky


Posts: 816
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Froggy Land
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]


Why don´t you start to count?
SUDG is at your suggested price,

$ 39.99 ~ € 42

the rest is import/export fees and shipping (the dealers have to pay that too) , something we have no or little influence on.
[/B][/QUOTE]

In fact, SUDG is available for about 60 € (including shipping & VAT) from Duchet - so a little less than the 69 €.

However, do not forget that the Matrix US suggested price does not include VAT ... so European customers must always add a 15-20% VAT to it :(

Spooky

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 48
- 6/10/2002 7:39:21 PM   
Nixuebrig

 

Posts: 1138
Joined: 1/2/2001
From: (c) Lübeck, now Berlin
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
[B]

In fact, SUDG is available for about 60 € (including shipping & VAT) from Duchet - so a little less than the 69 €.

However, do not forget that the Matrix US suggested price does not include VAT ... so European customers must always add a 15-20% VAT to it :(

Spooky [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe that was the think i am missing, prices here in germany are always with VAT.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 49
- 6/10/2002 8:23:35 PM   
Nixuebrig

 

Posts: 1138
Joined: 1/2/2001
From: (c) Lübeck, now Berlin
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]

I see you´re a very smart person. I bet our dealers would never have thought about the possibilities.

In fact we want to squezze the last drop of blood out of our "customers", we and our dealers make those fees and shipping costs up to get a little extra, you know. [/B][/QUOTE]


Never said that, if it sounded like that, I appologize, think i missed the target.
I just got a bit angry of the way, the demo was misused.
A Demo will raise sales if the Demo is good, but it will lower sales if it is bad. If the price is above avarage( speaking for me compared to th prices here in germany), then the Demo and the game must be of very good quality. And after playing the Demo, i said: "Nice, but not worth the 60 EUR for me" That was the point is was thinking of.

Again, sorry if I should have sounded insulting.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 50
- 6/11/2002 5:39:16 AM   
Montanan

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/3/2002
Status: offline 		STUNDG looks like a fun 4x game.

I really appreciate demo available. BUt this demo only goes 50 turns and we so no combat not much of anything with the aliens.

Suggest making the demo give us a tase of combat etc..get us wanting more.

Pluses are Demo & good 4x game
Minus's Demo too short, cant really get a feel for the game.

Lengthen demo, sales will go up.

Graphics look fine to me, just need longer taste of the game.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 51
==Attn Andrew & Matrix== - 6/11/2002 5:48:51 AM   
Montanan

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/3/2002
Status: offline 		I must say, after playing around with the demo again, i think STUNDG has the most wide market appeal out of any matrix game.

Lengthen the demo like civilization or SMGettysburg, and i'll buy it.

thanks and good work Andrew, keep 4x alive.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 52
- 6/11/2002 8:20:23 PM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew Ewanchyna
[B]The Underdogs site is for games that are no longer sold or supported by their developers. This isn't the case with STUN or SUDG. Are you proposing I stop supporting these games, KG Erwin? [/B][/QUOTE]

But STUN is on Underdogs already - and it needn't be abandonware for this.
It only needs to be an underdog, what it shurely is.

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?name=Starships+Unlimited


And, no, I didn't download the demo, but maybe do so just of curiosity.
But I will not buy SUDG, as I simply cannot afford it for the next 2 years.

From my experience with STUN I would suggest the following:

1) Do not make SUDG downloadeable, or get a lot better copy protection than with STUN.

2) I think the interface layout is a major pain .. and as it didn't change with SUDG, I won't like that part of the new game either.

3) 50 turns of demo is too short unless you start with high tech level. Is it possible in the demo? Would recommend to make it 100 turns nevertheless. (You'll need 100 turns to realize that the interface sucks, as you need 200+ turns in SE4 to realize that this i's true for AI, ministers and GUI)

Sounding too harsh? Na, it's only that I'm having a bad day again - looks like I'm making a habit of it.

yours,
A.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 53
Well, it appears pretty consistant... - 6/13/2002 11:33:37 AM   
Kahn

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 5/11/2002
From: Abingdon, MD
Status: offline 		From scanning through all the feedback here, two factors predominate the discourse.

[list=1]
  • The demo is too short to convice folks to buy.

  • The total price (including shipping & tarrifs) is just too high for most people to swallow.
    [/list=1]

    The final factor to consider is one that may not be so obvious as it isn't mentioned, but it's manifestation verifies the impact that the previous two factors have on sales.

    I tend to frequently visit forum sites of other games that I have purchased, and actively play and mod. The amount of activity in this forum is extreamly small compaired to that of any of the other sites I frequent. The impact of these two points is even more startling when a game like "SuperPower" can generate 20 times the activity in it's forums, yet is the worst piece of crap (excluding the trash generated in the Czech Republic) that I've come across since "Axis & Allies - Iron Blitz"!

    Everything under this thread pretty much echos what I mentioned in my first post, "You have a good product that's priced not to sell.". Switch to the internet sales model before you end up in bankrupcy and the big guys win. Lord knows, you don't have the problem that "Not a Number" (Blender) has (Excellent product, free, declaired bankrupcy in April 2002).

    _____________________________

    "The one you have to watch out for is the one you don't see comming!"
    [B]Kahn[/B]

    (in reply to Paul Vebber)
    • Post #: 54
    dont know if I'll buy or not... - 6/27/2002 2:54:19 AM   
    brownj00

     

    Posts: 1
    Joined: 6/27/2002
    From: Atlanta, GA USA
    Status: offline     		I played the demo of the shareware for 3-4 hours last week and liked it. So I downloaded the STUN DG demo to check it out.

    I liked the demo, but was surprised to see it stop after 50 years. The shareware demo I played probably 150 years and considered that a good demo - getting into some of the dynamics between the other species, etc. I play a lot of demo's - usually for an hour or so before discarding them. I found the complexity of the UI to be acceptable.

    I understand the company doesn't want people to play the demo a few times, get tired of it and not buy the full version. But the demo experience was not compelling because it was so limited. I did not meet any other races, build any ships, etc.

    I would liken this very short demo to trying to sell a car by showing a picture of the bumper.

    I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but some. There is some good feedback here, which is what was asked for.

    It must be hard to try and meet the demands of so many different potential customers. I know this is a competitive market space. From my perspective though, mailing a customer a CD as the only purchase option is almost archaic. I am not trying to be unkind, but you must figure something else out to compliment what you have now. You are completely missing the "impulse buy" potential. I, for example, am going on vacation tomorrow and was ready to buy and download TODAY. Maybe I will buy when I get back...

    If you cannot control the shipping costs, you can control your asking price. $30-40 is reasonable for a game as a TOTAL cost. Shipping and printing costs are reasonably considered part of the total cost.

    I am not trying to short-change the results of the developer's efforts - it looks like a great game. But there is a certain business skill in marketing and delivering a product that could use improvement. I am a technical person and NOT good at that kind of thing, but it is an important part in a product/company's success.

    I hope sales pick up.

    (in reply to Paul Vebber)
    Post #: 55
    No manual on disk - 7/22/2002 4:44:35 AM   
    wpurdom

     

    Posts: 476
    Joined: 10/27/2000
    From: Decatur, GA, USA
    Status: offline     		I invested a certain amount of time in the game and couldn't really make sense of it. It was too hard to slowly figure things out without a overall explanation of the commands. I usually skim the manual, then fool around with the mechanics, then read the manual for real.
    Now I'm intimidated by the game; this from someone who happily plays UV and MOO2.

    (in reply to Paul Vebber)
    Post #: 56
    - 8/4/2002 10:03:58 AM   
    MacCready

     

    Posts: 591
    Joined: 1/5/2001
    From: USA
    Status: offline     		I just went out and bought this game,had not even tried a demo.just interested in that sort of game.

    I think its a good game,maybe a little to expensive,but fun if your into space conquest,expansion games.

    I stopped playing it alltogether after a couple weeks,not because I don't like it,just don't have time for it at this point.

    As a matter of fact,I have three versions of SPWAW installed and I have not been playing them either.WW2 bores me after a while.

    Combat Leader seems a non priority at Matrix these days(We'll work on it piecemeal as we have time availible)

    (in reply to Paul Vebber)
    Post #: 57
    - 8/4/2002 11:45:01 AM   
    pasternakski


    Posts: 6565
    Joined: 6/29/2002
    Status: offline     		Played the demo a little. Wasn't impressed, but maybe it's not the game's fault. I think I burned myself out on MOO, BAA, and the other barnyard acronyms for the names of "I built, I fought, I lost, but ultimately kicked alien butt" future history opuses. A lot of 'em were a waste of time and money. Some might have been all right but got lost in the crowd (who has the time?). I cringe at the upcoming release of MOO3 (maybe if we're lucky it'll never happen).

    I just think it's the wrong product at the wrong time without any pizazz to re-energize the genre. This subject doesn't interest me these days, I guess. RFTS may have done all that needed to be done 20 years ago (I still get a minor kick out of playing it on my C64 emulator once in awhile).

    ------------------------

    I will now proceed to entangle the entire area

    (in reply to Paul Vebber)
    Post #: 58
    - 8/6/2002 11:22:07 PM   
    juliet7bravo

     

    Posts: 894
    Joined: 5/30/2001
    Status: offline     		I bought it without DL'ing the demo. Good game, not great, but bulletproof, fun, and enjoyable. Reminds me of Starflight1...why someone doesn't upgrade that classic, I dunno.

    Easy to play, but alot more depth to it than appears at first blush. Money well spent as far as I'm concerned.

    (in reply to Paul Vebber)
    Post #: 59
    It`s OK - 8/10/2002 3:23:05 AM   
    Black Cat

     

    Posts: 615
    Joined: 7/4/2002
    Status: offline     		I bought the Shareware version pre-Matrix, I have a feeling there`s a great Game in there somewhere, but I never really felt I had an understanding of the system/interface, or what I was expected to "head" toward..probably my fault.

    As far as Demos, forgeta about em Matrix, I`ve played PC games since my first PS 1 from Sears and a Demo has never sold a Game to me, all your doing with Demos is providing free Game time to the tire kickers...and Ammo to the Never Buy Fault Finders IMO.

    (in reply to Paul Vebber)
    Post #: 60
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