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RE: Artillery Spotting

 
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[Poll]

Artillery Spotting


Yes
  76% (59)
No
  23% (18)


Total Votes : 77


(last vote on : 10/27/2009 7:52:25 AM)
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RE: Artillery Spotting - 4/21/2009 4:50:16 PM   
1925frank

 

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One suggestion was, I believe, that to the extent there is drift, the drift would remain within the 250 hex -- that the artillery wouldn't be off by 500 (one hex) to 750 meters (two meters).  The suggestion was that the current 2-hex drift rule is unrealistic. 

With smoke, both direct and indirect fire are reduced in efficacy because they are firing with impaired visibility.  What if indirect fire suffered from the same reduced efficacy instead of drift?

I don't know enough to rule out drift.  To the extent there is drift, I think it sould be minimal at closer ranges and grow with greater ranges.

Regarding the spotting, I'm liking more the idea of a separate ammo number for artillery (or indirect fire generally).  From what I understand, some countries were better at spotting than others.  The ammo number already supposedly reflects the ability to communicate info accurately and timely to the artillery.  If this number is low, it would reflect poor spotting or an inability to communicate spotting accurately or timely. 

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Post #: 61
RE: Artillery Spotting - 4/30/2009 8:00:13 PM   
osiris_slith

 

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Hi Guys

A great idea long over due!!!

An excellent article for artillery doctrine tutorial at http://www.fireandfury.com/artillerytutorial/artyfrench.shtml

I would strongly suggest reading this before making any changes to the spotting rule. But to summarize artillery doctrine of the the major combatants


German Artillery
German Artillery Doctrine: It's mine-you can't use it.

Russian Artillery
Russian Artillery Doctrine: Sorry, we can't do that...


British Artillery
British Artillery Doctrine: To them that have much will be given.

United States Artillery
American Artillery Doctrine: Anything you want, you've got it...


Japanese Artillery
: Not much, not often

Why not just keep the changes simple.

German US, British Armies: 1x Forward Observer (FO) Unit per company
Russian: 1 x FO unit per battalion. This would reflect the Russian practice of pre-planned fire  
Japanese: 1x FO per battalion: Artillery was not used by the IJA on a large scale until Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Mortars were heavily used.

Rene


(in reply to timshin42)
Post #: 62
RE: Artillery Spotting - 4/30/2009 8:41:49 PM   
kool_kat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: osiris

Why not just keep the changes simple.

German US, British Armies: 1x Forward Observer (FO) Unit per company
Russian: 1 x FO unit per battalion. This would reflect the Russian practice of pre-planned fire  
Japanese: 1x FO per battalion: Artillery was not used by the IJA on a large scale until Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Mortars were heavily used.

Rene


And, I have to ask again... why make changes at all? If it aint broke...

Here is my previous post on this subject:

Gents:

There has been a lot of discussion that the current artillery spotting rules must be changed from a "realism" standpoint. However; I have read little to nothing on how any of these proposed changes would impact game play.

My view on artillery is that the current rules are adequate and work well within the JTCS game mechanics. Artillery; when one side is blessed with it, works as intended. Combat units can spot and call in artillery fire that will land in the turn following the request. Some artillery; like the Russian BM-13 Katyusha rocket launcher, takes an additional turn to reload its rocket tubes. Pretty straight forward.

IMO; as a JTCS player - not scenario designer, I like this abstracted artillery treatment. I don't want to micro manage my artillery forces. I want to focus on how artillery will support my troop advances - not that my FO is out of position and whoops, that combat unit can't call in fire from a particular artillery battery because it is not in the same chain of command.

Sorry; but for me, it is enough that I need to try to keep my combat units within support range of their assigned battalion HQs for supply purposes.

I am against adding an additional level of complexity (yes, all artillery change support postings advocate an increased level of complexity - adding additional units like FOs. Changing the chain of command to call in artillery strikes, etc.), in the name of "realism". Also any purposed artillery changes that I have read would fundamentally change how artillery spotting works and would have a major and unknown impact on game play. I don't see any of these proposed changes as incremental ones.

Finally; as a JTCS player, I have never played a PBeM game in which myself or any of my opponents have cited the current artillery spotting rules as being so flawed as to negatively impact on game play or flow. This has been my experience and to be frank, I have never considered "revamping" the artillery spotting rules. IMO, it should not have a higher priority versus other JTCS rule issues such as extreme assault, variable visibility, and existence of weird units like the "magical" bombers and "bathtub" navy. (not to open that discussion in this thread!)

Again, I believe the impact of these proposed artillery spotting rules to game play and balance need further discussion.



_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to osiris_slith)
Post #: 63
RE: Artillery Spotting - 5/1/2009 3:12:17 PM   
Dualnet

 

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The problem is that it is broke! Particularly for large games when vast amounts of artillery can fire on a target on one side of the map, switch immediately to the other side of the map and then back again

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Post #: 64
RE: Artillery Spotting - 5/1/2009 5:38:47 PM   
osiris_slith

 

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HI Mwest, Dualnet,Jason

I do agree with you Mwest that artillery is abstracted. Thinking it through lets keep it even more simple

Assume the FO will be with the commander in the command Platoon because its the company commander thats going to call the artillery down and order the FO to signal their buddies to shoot here and there.
 
Allow only the command platoon in the company to call artillery and problem is solved. Like this you still maintain a level of realism while addressing Dualnets concerns as well and you dont have to mess around with a FO unit given the scale of this game in the first place. I think Dualnet the concern you have about switching artillery in large games from one side to the other could be addressed by including a more realistic delay of artillery. Say you plot artillery on turn 4 it will arrive either on turn 4 or 5 or 6 or you could cancel the strike entirely but once requested unless the strike is called off the artillery will fall! I think this would address the concern you have with out going into more complex mechanics.

Osiris

(in reply to Dualnet)
Post #: 65
RE: Artillery Spotting - 5/1/2009 6:50:52 PM   
kool_kat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dualnet

The problem is that it is broke! Particularly for large games when vast amounts of artillery can fire on a target on one side of the map, switch immediately to the other side of the map and then back again


Richard:

Why not employ your own artillery rules of engagement (ROEs) ?

I have my own ROEs in regards to the use of transport units and halftracks as do most of my PBeM opponents. These "gentlemen agreements" work well. There is no reason it could not be (and has been) extended to the employment of artillery; as long as both players agree to follow them.

Do we really need more optional rules? We already have two flavors of assault.






_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to Dualnet)
Post #: 66
RE: Artillery Spotting - 5/1/2009 7:17:26 PM   
umbro

 

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Perhaps we should think of optional rules simply as ROEs that are enforced by the game system.

Thus, perhaps optional enhanced artillery would limit arty spotting to command units (including command platoons - btw does that pass to second platoon when the command platoon is out of action?) and artillery only to fire on targets spotted by command elements in their own organisation, but without the players having to track the details.

umbro

(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 67
RE: Artillery Spotting - 5/1/2009 9:28:35 PM   
kool_kat


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From: Clarksville, VA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: umbro

Perhaps we should think of optional rules simply as ROEs that are enforced by the game system.


In other words... make it an optional rule!

Looks like any proposed artillery rule changes will be out just about the time CS scenario designers finish tweaking all the 350 stock + hundreds of DYO scenarios to accomodate Extreme Assault. Give them another project!

_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

(in reply to umbro)
Post #: 68
RE: Artillery Spotting - 5/1/2009 10:06:26 PM   
1925frank

 

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If artillery were not changed at all, I wouldn't care.  At the same time, there are certain aspects about artillery that I think leave room for improvement.  I don't like the two-hex drift at short range.  Regarding spotting, I've played other games where spotting is a hassle and an exercise in frustration.  I remember being really pleased that spotting was so easy in this game.  Despite the ease of spotting, it's not a sure thing.  If your units are eliminated or retreat or lose their line of sight for one reason or another, you'll have drift.

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Post #: 69
RE: Artillery Spotting - 6/28/2009 4:37:22 AM   
dgk196

 

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Hello,

Well, as usual, the replies are 'all over the place'...... good, shows there's a diversity of thought...

The only 'line of thought' that I can't agree with is ..... 'if it ain't broke'.....

You're kidding, right? Don't get me wrong.... I think that the explanations as regard the why are valid.....

What isn't valid is why it should not be addressed...... if 'tanks', or 'infantry' or 'guns', all had the same attributes, regardless of nationality or type, there would be major 'uproar', in addition to a 'completely' unrealistic game....

The 'devil is in the details'..... ignore the 'details' and there will be the devil to pay.....

Dennis

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 70
RE: Artillery Spotting - 6/28/2009 4:21:01 PM   
MrRoadrunner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dgk196

The only 'line of thought' that I can't agree with is ..... 'if it ain't broke'.....

You're kidding, right? Don't get me wrong.... I think that the explanations as regard the why are valid.....



Sarcasm aside, what about trying to not let someone change something that should not be changed if it "ruins" the game, as a game, because the feature added was not based on the principles of artillery spotting (for realism) and is only based on what a bunch of players think it sould be?
It happens.

RR


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Post #: 71
RE: Artillery Spotting - 6/28/2009 9:26:51 PM   
timshin42


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Thank you Mr. Roadrunner, for attempting to inject a bit of sanity into what has been, by and large, an exercise in insanity! With the few exceptions of those who have quite aptly explained the capabilities and limitations of the artillery of different nations, much of what has been said is "maneuver element" superficia. Attempting to more accurately model field Artillery in this game by adjusting drift factors or regulating the allotment of forward observers looks to me like emtying the water from a hole in the beach while the tide is coming in.

Field artillery is fundamentally different from the maneuver elements, and I'm not referring to weapons systems, ammunition or forward observers. Anyone who thinks that artillery can't shoot at a target without an observer with LOS to a target, or thinks that most artillery pieces can't shift fires from one side of the battlefield to another quite efficiently, is just plain unaware of the functions of the Fire Support Coordination Center at Division, Corps or Army level, and the interfaces between all sources intelligence, FA operations, aerial operations, ballistic meteorology, to name but a few, which take place there. Nor are they aware of some of the more basic FA functions such as registration fires, artllery survey, and sound and flash ranging capabilities. You can no more micro-model these functions than you can micro-model the functions of a maneuver element battalion, regiment, brigade, or division staff. Nor are they aware that "observed fires" are only a fraction of the artilleryman's bag of tricksl

All Armiy's artilleries had such functions; they are the essence of the Field Artillery package. the only differences being the varying efficiencies of the various FA functions in the different Armies.

In short, superficially attempting to "improve" the artillery model by toying with trivial factors which only represent a small portion of the entire FA package, very likely results in even further distortion of artillery play in this game. Is the current artillery model perfect? Hell no! It is not even "very good". Is it acceptable? It is acceptable to this Redleg former battery XO, battery commander, battalion fire direction officer, and FA advanced course and command and staff course instructor. So it ought to be acceptable to any maneuver element guys whose only exposure to field artillery has been "observed fires and FOs".

The only meaningful changes to the game artillery model would come about through a coordinated effort between the programmer (Tiller), the Game Manager (Petho) and a small task team willing to thoroughly familiarize itself with the artillery tactics and techniques of the various nations and come up with a short grocery list of basics, such as American "time-on-target" and Soviet "moving barrages" to name but two, for the programmer and manager to implement. UNTIL THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, PLEASE LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE!

Like Mr. Roadrunner, I love this game! Please don't screw it up with myopic, inaccurate or cosmetic changes.


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timshin42
"Freedom isn't free"

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 72
RE: Artillery Spotting - 6/29/2009 5:20:29 PM   
kool_kat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: timshin42


In short, superficially attempting to "improve" the artillery model by toying with trivial factors which only represent a small portion of the entire FA package, very likely results in even further distortion of artillery play in this game.

Is the current artillery model perfect? Hell no! It is not even "very good". Is it acceptable?

It is acceptable to this Redleg former battery XO, battery commander, battalion fire direction officer, and FA advanced course and command and staff course instructor. So it ought to be acceptable to any maneuver element guys whose only exposure to field artillery has been "observed fires and FOs".

The only meaningful changes to the game artillery model would come about through a coordinated effort between the programmer (Tiller), the Game Manager (Petho) and a small task team willing to thoroughly familiarize itself with the artillery tactics and techniques of the various nations and come up with a short grocery list of basics, such as American "time-on-target" and Soviet "moving barrages" to name but two, for the programmer and manager to implement.

UNTIL THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, PLEASE LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE!

Like Mr. Roadrunner, I love this game! Please don't screw it up with myopic, inaccurate or cosmetic changes.


And THANK YOU Mr. Haines for your service to our country and for interjecting your real life experience as a battery commander into this thread!

It is refreshing to have logic and real experience to counter the "have to change for change sake" mentality of some JTCS players.


< Message edited by mwest -- 6/29/2009 5:25:08 PM >


_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

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Post #: 73
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/1/2009 6:25:14 PM   
andym


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If tanks were as i have requested many,many times be painted Pink then we wouldnt need Artillery Spotting would we?

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Post #: 74
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/1/2009 11:40:54 PM   
JumboBlitz

 

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I personally have never thought Artillery was a problem in the game. Sure it's certainly not even close to perfect. But does it really need to be ?. Can't the scenario designer allow for the amount of artillery and types for both sides ?. With that tool and simply choosing how much and of what type, The scenario designer can pretty much decide how much the artillery will effect or benefit one side or the other. I'm not up for any changes to the current rules regarding artillery, With the exception of possibly implementing what Jason suggested as far as a drift factor option. 

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Post #: 75
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/3/2009 4:06:44 AM   
Borst50

 

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PINK TANKS?????!!!!!??? Ohhhh, I just have to see that! How about fuchia? Or maybe a nice "Miami Vice" 80's soft pastel colour?

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Post #: 76
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/3/2009 6:25:33 PM   
andym


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Borst50

PINK TANKS?????!!!!!??? Ohhhh, I just have to see that! How about fuchia? Or maybe a nice "Miami Vice" 80's soft pastel colour?



Why not,im not Colourist at all,maybe a nice pastel Peach for the Kubelwagens?

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Post #: 77
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/3/2009 9:12:05 PM   
Borst50

 

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Absolutely!! And the halftracks should be a brilliant electric puce!

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Post #: 78
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/3/2009 10:32:11 PM   
1925frank

 

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Borst50, if you want to see a pink tank, go to Campaign Series Support and look in the Patch Issues thread.  There's a photo of a pink tank there.  You'll also get to see the new brothel unit Jason developed.

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Post #: 79
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/3/2009 11:10:06 PM   
Borst50

 

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heheheh...i remember the brothel unit...still waiting to see it in the campaign. Even cartoon soldiers need releif!

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Post #: 80
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/4/2009 12:19:11 PM   
AbeSimpson


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imo the only pink tank in JTCS should be the Panther 

A "Miami Vice" style for vehicles would be fantastic but then we need the original soundtrack as backgroundmusic...

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Post #: 81
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/4/2009 2:58:00 PM   
Borst50

 

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That shouldnt be too hard to do as West Front already had the music from the movie Battle of the Bulge (1966) in it. Its in German, something about Panzers. .

I was thinking....how about tail fins on the Pershing....complete with brake lights?

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Post #: 82
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/4/2009 7:42:31 PM   
1925frank

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

imo the only pink tank in JTCS should be the Panther 



A pink Panther!

I suppose all the French tanks will have to be yellow? (Just joking.)

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Post #: 83
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/5/2009 2:11:54 AM   
Borst50

 

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I think Peter Sellers is rolling in his grave. *salute* With Laughter of course. I miss Inspector Cleauseau

< Message edited by Borst50 -- 7/5/2009 2:14:24 AM >

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Post #: 84
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/5/2009 6:33:18 PM   
andym


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Borst50

I think Peter Sellers is rolling in his grave. *salute* With Laughter of course. I miss Inspector Cleauseau



Peter Sellars was a comic genius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPyDY5aZyXs


(funny how this has gone off topic)


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Post #: 85
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/5/2009 6:40:24 PM   
kool_kat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: andym

(funny how this has gone off topic)



Actually refreshing?


_____________________________

Regards, - Mike

"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

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Post #: 86
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/6/2009 2:05:40 AM   
Borst50

 

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thank you sir for bringing back memories of movies i have not seen on years. I agree, Peter was a comic genius! However..he was not the first inspector. Alan Arkin was the original...he did not possess the comedy talent to continue the series. I believe the first move was titled "A Shot in the Dark" , Elke Summer played the femme fatale. This was 1966 or 67...the came the Pink Panther...with David Niven as the theif....and the Pink Panther was the Jewel he was trying to steal.

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Post #: 87
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/8/2009 1:32:15 PM   
Crossroads


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For someone who did his service in Artillery and who also enjoys the Campaign Series from the Talonsoft days, this topic has been an interesting read.

Thank you for sharing the information. I just wanted to add my 0.02. My apologies for non-native english...

I also wanted to do some additional research in addition to my personal experiences.

As always, it proved that very good summaries are already available. So instead of writing the thing myself, I will just make some brief points. Actually, the lazy sob that I am I finally decided to refer to another internet forum discussion instead...

The purpose of this post is to add some (hopefully) interesting pieces of information to the generic discussion of Artillery in JTCS. My basic point is to evaluate what was possible to achieve i) during six minutes ii) with WW II equipment and doctrines and add some personal experiences in top of that.

As I mentioned I did my eleven months in the artillery. Our particular arty unit was trained to support operations both at land and at sea. Interestingly, still in mid-eighties, we not only studied but also practiced the old manual procedures that date back to WW II. I do not know whether this was a plan B against EPM weaponry or just something that adds to theory behind arty, but so it was.

So, I practiced the WW II based doctrines. Heck, in our day-to-day operations we still used the trusty old Soviet model 76 mm guns from WW II days to save our actual 130 mm's from wear and tear...

To add to my background, I do not know how it translates but basically I was responsible for calculalting the directions for my battery's four guns, based on the target information I receiced. I also received and forwarded the commands from the commanding officer to guns.

I am not, and have not been working in Army. I am just a civilian. It was twenty years ago. So do not take this too seriously...

First, thanks timshin42 for a good summary regarding what arty can do, and for Lesbaker how they actually did it. My intention is to build on with a few examples, based on these postings.

Second, instead of links to Wiki or elsewhere, I thought this discussion I found is as good summary as any regarding the Finnish WW II tactics: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=139608

The discussion basically states everything I wanted to say. My thanks to "JariL", whoever you are :)

Here we go:

<-- snip -->

The main changes in the artillery doctrine during Continuation War (1941 - 1944) were:
1) Use of maps in determining target co-ordinates
2) Development of claculation tool ("korjausmuunnin")
2) Combining all available artillery and mortars under one artillery commander
3) Making FO's "independent"

Basically the idea with the new doctrine was that the FO should be relieved from making any calculations. He should be able to control fire as if he was firing through direct sights. All calculations were to be done in battery positions. To make this fine idea work a new way of calculating values for the cannons was needed. The result was a calculation tool that in Finnish was called "korjausmuunnin".

FO gave target co-ordinates from the map together with distance and direction to the battery. Based on this information the calculation tool was placed on top of the map so that it formed a triangle where battery position was one corner, the target another and the position of the FO the third. The beuaty of it all was that the FO did not need to know where the shooting cannons were. In the matter of fact he did not even need to know which batteries were shooting. In practise this meant that any FO, or actually anyone with a map and acces to radio or telephone, could give firing commands to artillery.

It did not take too long for the troops to realise that as the FO's were no longer bound to one artillery unit, it was possible to combine several artillery units into one whos support could be called by any FO within the shooting range of the artillery units. Heavy mortar units could also be attached to the system as they used the same shooting method. An additional bonus was that FO's who had been a scarce resource all of the sudden became an abundant resource. FO's could be easily attached to and detached from other units when needed.

When the hole thing was formalized all available artillery in a sector was combined under one artillery commander who decided in which order and with what strength each request from FO's was answered. Fire could be prepared in advance if there was time but the system made it possible to start effect shooting within 2 to 5 minutes to unprepared targets as well.


<-- snip -->

Indeed. When I knew the location the FO was reporting from, I could very quickly, with a map, manually determine the location of the target. Then I calculated the directions for our battery's use, and gave it to my four subordinates who then quickly determined the exact bearings for their individual guns to use. Each gun would then individually fire volleys against a single ship, for an example.

I cannot of course have personal experience to confirm the sector wide combined use of artillery and mortar units but that is a historical fact that can be looked up. I am too lazy to bother... Sorry But the point is that it was a normal practice towards the end of the war to ensure a maximum effect with minimum resources.

<-- snip -->

Finnish artillery pre-plotted targets when possible, but due to its effective methods it could also be directed to hit any target within range very fast. After improvements introduced in 1943 (mainly "korjausmuunnin" aka "corrections converter", which gave values needed for adjusting fire immediately.) While Finnish artillery rarely did direct-fire missions, these were not unknown either. Direct-fire missins were usually handled by units equipped with 76-mm infantry guns (like 76 LK/10-13 and 76 RK/27). Instead of direct fire the popular method for destroying individual targets in the frontline was "tikkausammunta" ("pin-**** shooting") for which usually heavy or super-heavy howitzer suitably far from the immediate frontline was used and FO-team in the fronline adjusted its fire after each shot until the target was hit - with experienced FO-team and howitzer crew this could be done with as little as just three shots per target.

<-- snip -->

We, a basic and simple arty unit, were very efficient against moving sea targets as well. Typically, our FO gave targets not for the towed target raft but towards an area some 50 m behind it, as when given the correct information the very first volley often destroyed the raft (that could be e.g. 5 km forward from our positions).

Regarding the time needed to do this, I can personally back up the 2 to 5 minute time frame against unprepared targets the discussion mentions.

Finally, the beauty of the thing was that indeed the FO did not have to anything about the participating batteries nor where they were. When not using preplanned targets, he just gave his position and the the target, following the results and adjusting accordingly:

<-- snip -->

"...all corrections by the FO were given in meters not in degrees. Thus if the fire missed the target by 200 m to the left seen from the position of the FO the correction was "right 200".

<-- snip -->

[Edit]
Here is a pic of the calculation tool/correction converter. Ahh, the nostalgy. As seen from the pic, the tool was placed on a map, based on our battery position. The FO position was taken into account using the movable circular unit in the tool. After this, his firing orders were manually calculated by us in a manner of a few seconds...
http://www.geocities.com/finnmilpge/korjausmuunnin.gif
[/Edit]

So, from my personal experience from some twenty years ago, I can assure you that "realistically", during a time frame of let us say 12 minutes (two turns, right), I could be directing my four guns towards a sea moving target, then participate (OK, just for a few rounds but this is an example, right) in a preplanned rolling barrage, then point my four guns to silence a pesky AT position that the commanding artillery officer determines to be a valid target.

So, again, just my 0,02 as what "realistic" WW II artillery can achieve.

As for the CS arty spotting, I leave it to everyone to make their own conclusions.

But of course, here is my top three-list regarding artillery in CS

If you change it, why don't you make a difference as well. And of course, please as an option :)

First, I do not believe the heavier arty is modeled to be effective enough against soft targets in an open position. It should just murder any soft targets that get in its way.

Why don't you give it some real power so it alone could break absolute havoc when used properly? This is an option, right? Or make it capable firing three times per turn if not changing targets? Just some first ideas, no offense...

Secondly, (and my only comment regarding the original topic...) "FO's who had been a scarce resource all of the sudden became an abundant resource".

I would model the spotting rule perhaps in a way that any unit with a radio can spot artillery? At least towards the later scenarios?

Thirdly - and this is my personal favorite: I would allow Indirect fire to participate in direct fire if a targeted unit is spotted with some one who has a radio

I can guarantee that if I would have been informed that a pesky AT section is halting our advance, it would have shells coming towards it in a manner of minutes. And this definitively would give the game some new perspectives :)

I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed writing this!

[Edit]
Come to think of it, arty and mortar fire as such is modeled quite well in the engine. What I would suggest for my Extreme Artillery (why not? ) optional rule would be that

i) The combined total of attacking SPs would be calculated for the hex under fire, and one massive attack result calculated, instead of the number of separate attacks currently in place.

This would model the effect of concentrated barrage on a target. If player indeed chooses to concentrate his/her arty fire power the results should be in relation to that. This would also model the short period of six minutes of time, which is not a long time, but still all guns firing into same hex would cause a lot of destruction.

ii) Either make the first platoon with radio able to call artillery (as they would radio the commander, who would in turn radio the artillery commander of the sector), or, perhaps in order to have more fun with this option: put a separate FO officer in game (one per battalion?). The latter would just for the fun of it make it possible to

iii) Make artillery available as direct fire, when target is spotted by the FO unit directly. This would be fun in a manner that the schwerpunkt could have massive artillery support (ie. Extreme Arty) immediately available to them, as long as the FO is alive and well, and sees the target himself.

Just my 0.02 of course.
[/Edit]


< Message edited by Crossroads -- 7/9/2009 1:54:47 PM >


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(in reply to kool_kat)
Post #: 88
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/8/2009 7:05:47 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Corona, CA
Status: offline
I hate optional rules, which is the only thing I dont like about HPS Panzer Campaigns.I once spent 5 times passing emails from my opponent just to determine optional rules.Optional rules certainly can give a scenario a more of a challenge or make it easier for the newbies, but when Extreme Assault rules came out it split the community.So for example if you hate Extreme Assault, you now only have half the choice of PBEM Opponents because the other half like extreme Assualt.All these realism changes are just turning JTCS into different game and will eventually lead to JTCS' downfall.

(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 89
RE: Artillery Spotting - 7/9/2009 10:09:14 AM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline
I hear you, V22. But this is a damn-if-you-do-damn-if-you-don't secenario, isn't it?

This is a quite large and active community, so trying to accommodate for the identified major trends of player wishes is a good thing as such. The consensus is to make any considered changes optional.

Simple user interface is also not only a newbie thingie, IMHO, as we each have our own preferences.

I for myself mostly play for the beer & pretzels -experience, simplistic good fun without too much micro management (micro management being the point). Heck, the basic JTCS is still too complicated when compared to Panzer Leader, for an example. Guys, make supply optional!



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(in reply to V22 Osprey)
Post #: 90
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