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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE!

 
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RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 9:21:18 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Q-Ball - IF they were trying a raid why did they hang around for Day 2? I can't come up with anything other than foolishness and poor play as the answer to that.


They didn't intend to hang around, it was a tactical mistake. The mistake was that they shouldn't have been there in the first place with 2 CVs when KB was almost certainly there, but it would have turned out OK for them if they had managed to get out of there.

They didn't, and far as I can tell for a couple reasons:

1) They approached Palmyra from the ESE, then withdrew NORTH. That limited the distance that they could put between them and KB. Had they launched the Yamato killing strike from directly NORTH of Palmyra, a withdrawl to Pearl would have headed directly away from the island, rather than accross it.
2) Probably the DD's topped off, and likely the TF also reacted. But if they hadn't done #1, that wouldn't have been a problem. This just slowed them enough to get killed. Setting the base to Palmyra or Johnston or somewhere closer would have prevented DD top-off.

Basically, they meant to withdraw, but weren't aggressive about getting the heck out of there, when KB was confirmed to be around (by the Zero Cap over Yamato). That's the problem.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 4/28/2009 9:24:41 PM >

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Post #: 961
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 9:55:48 PM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		Well, if it wasn't intended as a decisive engagement then it is still a sign of poor play.  At this point in time trying to "sting" the schwerpunkt is something which is never going to work. You don't launch a spoiling attack AT the schwerpunkt when it is rolling ( which is what you are saying they tried ). That's suicidal.

No matter how you parse it or what you say they "might" have been doing it just doesn't look good in terms of strategic nous.

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Post #: 962
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 11:05:37 PM   
flaggelant


Posts: 262
Joined: 1/25/2009
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Status: offline 		i'd say a fort 6 is pretty much built for defence, but without troops it is/was useless..


On attacking the schwerpunkt (you German Nemo?) it's not always suicidal, i'm quiet sure you noticed
John's attack on Timor (in his game on the other dark side  ) where he was facing 2 car divs.

The way Q says it, it sounds logical (in the way that they werent crazy, just not paying that much attention),
it was probably the routing planned to get out of reach that made it a desastre for the allied CV's, Would it have worked (by moving away eastwards for example), it would have been a very good manouver (except for leaving that island garrison)

 

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Post #: 963
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/28/2009 11:17:20 PM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		Flaggelant,
Aye but the difference between that game and this is that what was being posited here was a spoiling attack. What John was doing in his other game wasn't constituted at a spoiling attack - it was an attempt to take a bit out of the schwerpunkt --- which is an entirely different beast.


Flaggelant... Ok, then if you want to give them props for building level 6 points let me point out their poor play in not actually putting sufficient troops there.


Again, feel free to make all the allowances you want and build these opponents up into people who have hidden depths etc etc. It still doesn't change the objective facts.

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Post #: 964
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/29/2009 12:07:47 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Gentlemen:

This is a good discussion to read.  I've been out all day with my Father so haven't been able to comment.

My perspective is pretty simple.  Paul screwed up.  It is that simple.  I think he ordered Lexington's TF to move away but forgot to do the same with Enterprise and Hornet.  The simple reality is that the Lex TF was at least 8-10 hexes north of Palmyra while the other CTF stayed right where it was.  To me this is a huge error of not double checking one's orders. 

The raid was well executed the first day and had they moved all three CVs away we would be having a FAR different conversation n'est pas?



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Post #: 965
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/29/2009 12:32:25 AM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		Not really, if they were going to make a sting then either they should have supported the sting at your schwerpunkt by having Palmyra be too strong to fall easily or they should have stung elsewhere while your KB was at Palmyra.

Still, on with the game and all that. People's opinions differ and that's just fine.

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Post #: 966
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/29/2009 1:37:50 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		I kept wondering when a bunch of LBA was going to "appear" at Canton since he spotted me 3-4 days away.  That was my initial fear...


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Post #: 967
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/29/2009 2:03:07 AM   
Hornblower


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Status: offline 		i'll be honest i had to look up "schwerpunkt"

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Post #: 968
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/29/2009 2:10:31 AM   
stuman


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Status: offline 		So you were not paying attention that day in your 5th grade German military history class ?

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Post #: 969
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/29/2009 2:15:12 AM   
Hornblower


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Status: offline 		Apparently not... dang wonder what else i missed? 

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Post #: 970
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/29/2009 2:55:05 AM   
Nemo121


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Status: offline 		What else did you miss? Nahverteidigungswaffen .. Old, old-school CMers from 2001 to 2003 will get that. Everyone else will be kinda mystified. Read up on it though (wikipedia should have something ). If not there then Markus Hofbauer has an excellent page.

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Post #: 971
RE: The Battle of Palmyra--Day THREE! - 4/29/2009 3:03:21 AM   
stuman


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Status: offline 		Ah, the smoke discharge accessory. I learned about it in my 6th grade Armored Fighting Vehicle class, which was right before lunch period, and right after Close Air Support For Grade Schoolers

Actually Nemo121 I did want to say how much I enjoyed reading your comments. I find them always interesting.

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Post #: 972
British BBs! - 4/29/2009 6:52:13 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Combat Report
July 12, 1942

How about we change the subject to the Western Indian Ocean? On the previous day the 3 R-Class British BBs hit Bombay with a bombardment. They accomplished very little and managed to get away with it when weather closed Poona down and our Bettys did not fly.

Luckily everything worked today! As shown in the screenshot, the elderly British BBs did not steam far enough away to escape the range of Miss Betty.A total of 34 Betty strike at the British Fleet and all three R-Class are hit!

Results are:
Resolution 2 TT--On Fire
Ramilles 2 TT--Heavy Damaged
Royal Sovereign 1 TT--On Fire
2 DD 1 TT

Wonder if they will be out of range tomorrow????

Meanwhile...Karachi is hit for the 3rd time in 4 days by a force of 76 Fighters and 123 Bombers. The Allies put up their normal 52 VERY Tired Fighters. For 13 Oscars and 4 Zero, the Allies lose 29 Fighters in the air and a further 23 on the ground. The Bomber Force loses 13 Wellington and 3 B-24! Total for the strike is Japan 17 F and 5 Bombers in exchange for 52 Fighters and 16 Bombers. VERY NICE!






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/29/2009 6:53:04 AM >

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Post #: 973
Options - 4/29/2009 4:01:37 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Brad and I have been chatting some and are thinking about some options regarding the change within the the strategic calculus after our victory at Palmyra.  Here are some of the options we are thinking on:

KB
1.  Pull out the 3 CVL and send them to the IO to link-up with the Junyos, 2 CVL, and 3 CVE to form a strike force that should utterly destroy anything the British have and clear the sea lanes so nothing can reach Bombay and/or Karachi.  If we do this then I will pull all 6 remaining CV to the Home Islands for R&R, upgrade, and replacement of lost pilots.  The worst of the 6 heavies is at System 8 so repair and upgrade will not take too long.  We can base the expanded IO Fleet at Columbo and be in solid shape.

NOTE:  Brad I will need to replace roughly 50 lost planes/pilots.  Do we have that ability to do so in about 2 weeks? 

2.  With the Americans so stung by their loss my immediate inclination is to Raid along their supply lines.  I could take the 6 or 9 CV/CVL and send them east of Pearl Harbor or down towards Papeate to sink convoys.  That could be quite fun for a bit.

3.  Decisively move into Gulf of Alaska and sink everything I can find.  We know Lexington was present through July 12th so this could be fun as well.  Could also serve to derail any further moves in the North for a while.

No matter what I will need to replace lost pilots.

No plan is settled and won't be for at least 4 turns until the CVs are all in one place.  What do people think?



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Post #: 974
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 4:17:55 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		HEY!  What is this deviousness you have started Mr. Roper?  Just spotted your new Thread that doesn't allow the PLAYERS of the First Team into it.  This is a novel approach to have a Thread where the players of the campaign aren't allowed to comment!  

Have good time with it! 


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Post #: 975
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 4:31:11 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		John, I started that separate thread to ask a question that I couldn't ask in either of the two "real" Better Team/Best Team threads.

As for your options, all have merit.  It's tough to choose between three enticing options.  It's always tough to take the time to send carriers home for upgrading, so I'd lean towards that option.  But I'm more conservative than you are!

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Post #: 976
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 4:32:07 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		John, we can replace the pilots; the Val and Kate pilots are pretty easy, we are a little short on Zero pilots. We have 4 Zero Daitai basically on defensive duty in the Pacific, given that loss on their part, we can safely pull one apart for replacements if we need to. It will take a couple days, I would probably pull them all to Truk to make that all happen; they will also repair some OPS damage, which needs to happen.

With the Betty hit on the RN BB's, I doubt they will get too close to the Indian coast anymore. I would love the RN CVs to come out and play, but I doubt they will.

BTW, we only saw R-Class BBs in those bombardment runs, I bet PoW and Repulse are in Australia. We know Hermes is at Aden, and probably all the other RN CVs as well. They have paid the PP penalties to keep them, so we know they are there.

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Post #: 977
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 4:35:53 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
We know Hermes is at Aden, and probably all the other RN CVs as well. They have paid the PP penalties to keep them, so we know they are there.


Huh? I'm not sure I understand. British ships don't need to be in Aden for you to forfeit PP by refusing to send them home. They can be anywhere. IE, if the Brit player has all RN carriers in Australia, and gets notice he must send a CVL home or pay 2,000 political points, he can just ignore the demand, keep all those carriers in Australia, and forfeit the 2k PP at month's end.

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RE: Options - 4/29/2009 4:38:58 PM   
Hornblower


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Status: offline 		Hummm……

All the options seem to have a good upside.
I tend to like option 2.
You might be able to catch a nice fat troop transport outbound from San Fran..
Why do I like option 2?  Well for the reason above, and after your done making a nuisance of yourself, I would think he’d have to keep his surviving CV’s between Pearl and the west coast to prevent a repeat.
Also you might be able to link option 3 in at the tail end?  Swing up from Canton,  hang out in the tropic of Cancer for a bit, and if you have the fuel, swing up to the north pacific for a dance or two before heading home.

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Post #: 979
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 5:01:43 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
We know Hermes is at Aden, and probably all the other RN CVs as well. They have paid the PP penalties to keep them, so we know they are there.


Huh? I'm not sure I understand. British ships don't need to be in Aden for you to forfeit PP by refusing to send them home. They can be anywhere. IE, if the Brit player has all RN carriers in Australia, and gets notice he must send a CVL home or pay 2,000 political points, he can just ignore the demand, keep all those carriers in Australia, and forfeit the 2k PP at month's end.



We had search aircraft based at Trivandrum no later than 5/1/42, and we had search aircraft at Exmouth about 2/15/42. So, there is a good chance we would have seen any RN ships in transit from India to Australia after those dates.

I don't have the dates in front of me, but 1 RN CV comes in before 2/1, and 2 come in after. We haven't seen them in transit. So, they either have to be a) in the Indian Ocean, or b) sent home. But we know from PP penalties they weren't sent home. So they are somewhere in the IO. Only safe place is Aden. So they are there.


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RE: Options - 4/29/2009 5:16:03 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Brad--Catching the Royal Navy would be nice but I want those damned convoys to stop.  There is one unloading in Karachi right now.  If we plant the CVs about 7-8 hexes from Karachi and 3-4 hexes from the northern edge of the board they will be cutoff.  With some AO present we could hold the hex for weeks and truly institute a siege.  I know that there are fears regarding LBA so that is why we attach a pair of CVE carrying 54 Zeros to fly CAP.  We could easily field 125 or so Zero over head while blasting anything at sea...

It might FORCE a naval battle!

Am still mulling over options listed earlier.  Repairing Sys Dam, Upgrades, and Pilots are the immediate priorities.  If we immediately pull the CV back to Japan then we could--perhaps--have everything taken care of by the 1st week of August and then look at attack options...

   

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Post #: 981
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 5:29:20 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Brad--Catching the Royal Navy would be nice but I want those damned convoys to stop.  There is one unloading in Karachi right now.  If we plant the CVs about 7-8 hexes from Karachi and 3-4 hexes from the northern edge of the board they will be cutoff.  With some AO present we could hold the hex for weeks and truly institute a siege.  I know that there are fears regarding LBA so that is why we attach a pair of CVE carrying 54 Zeros to fly CAP.  We could easily field 125 or so Zero over head while blasting anything at sea...

It might FORCE a naval battle!

Am still mulling over options listed earlier.  Repairing Sys Dam, Upgrades, and Pilots are the immediate priorities.  If we immediately pull the CV back to Japan then we could--perhaps--have everything taken care of by the 1st week of August and then look at attack options...

   


Absolutely, this should be done. Biggest problem is a lack of Zeros; all the ones I have are basically over Karachi. Maybe we can scrape up a Daitai somewhere to put on the transports. We have several Daitai in training that are about 2-3 weeks out from completion, so we should have more shortly.


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Post #: 982
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 9:18:13 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Brad--How about I pull a Daitai of Zeros and Vals from the Central Pacific for replacements?  Not sure about Kates and we shall need all 27 of the pilots in a Daitai to replace the losses in that area.

New Plan:  I will recall all 9 CVs to Kwajalein.  Once present they will be split with 3 CVL going to Singapore and then Columbo and the 6 heavies going straight to Japan for repairs.  The VAST balance of the Fleet goes with them.  The Allies will do NOTHING for a while so we shall use that time to get everyone in operational shape.

Logistics:  In doing this we shall be able to build-up a decent amount of fuel at Truk, Kwajalein, Suva, and Auckland so we can have extended operations.  The AOs will move to Marcus with 60,000 fuel and wait for the operational decision of where to go to...




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Post #: 983
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 10:07:17 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Brad--How about I pull a Daitai of Zeros and Vals from the Central Pacific for replacements?  Not sure about Kates and we shall need all 27 of the pilots in a Daitai to replace the losses in that area.

New Plan:  I will recall all 9 CVs to Kwajalein.  Once present they will be split with 3 CVL going to Singapore and then Columbo and the 6 heavies going straight to Japan for repairs.  The VAST balance of the Fleet goes with them.  The Allies will do NOTHING for a while so we shall use that time to get everyone in operational shape.

Logistics:  In doing this we shall be able to build-up a decent amount of fuel at Truk, Kwajalein, Suva, and Auckland so we can have extended operations.  The AOs will move to Marcus with 60,000 fuel and wait for the operational decision of where to go to...





Good plan with the fleet. One additional Zero Daitai should be sufficient; I have some Kates handy. Vals are useless anyway against those armored RN flight decks.

We should be out of the woods in about a month with our Zero losses, because

a) we will have Tojos. We have TONS of good IJA pilots that are sitting around waiting for good mounts. I have been training them from the 60s into the high 70s/low 80s. They can take some pressure off the Zero units
b) We have other IJN fighter units training up in Burma/China




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Post #: 984
RE: Options - 4/29/2009 10:29:12 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Where do you want to do the replacements?  Do we just want to move the 3 Daitai back to the Home Islands and transfer pilots there?  Probably makes sense to me.  I will disband the CVs by Division in the Home Islands.  We have lots of open repair yards right now so that should be fairly easy and quick.


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Post #: 985
Air Card - 4/30/2009 6:17:36 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		This has been the normal thing in the air for the last two weeks:

The stupid yellow arrow is meant to be pointing at the Allied daily losses as well as for the whole campaign...




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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 4/30/2009 6:18:26 AM >

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Post #: 986
RE: Air Card - 4/30/2009 3:56:45 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		The fact that we keep seeing Mohawks and Buffalos tells me that the RAF is critically short of airplanes. I haven't counted, but I bet they're short on pilots too; they start with a good pool, but only add 30/mo.

An attrition war against the USAAF is suicidal as Japan, but you can bleed the RAF.

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Post #: 987
RE: Air Card - 5/1/2009 6:56:01 AM   
n01487477


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
An attrition war against the USAAF is suicidal as Japan, but you can bleed the RAF.


That is why any good Allied player will have a good mix of USAAF and Commonwealth planes to sortie against the Japanese... spread the load.

Wait a sec, I'm a JFB ... what the ...

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Post #: 988
RE: Air Card - 5/1/2009 12:50:53 PM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
An attrition war against the USAAF is suicidal as Japan, but you can bleed the RAF.


That is why any good Allied player will have a good mix of USAAF and Commonwealth planes to sortie against the Japanese... spread the load.

Wait a sec, I'm a JFB ... what the ...


Actually up to about this point, the Japaese could have bled the USAAF dry of at least fighters. However, production will be ramped up enough by now that it is no longer to accomplish that goal at this stage.

I read this thread and a certai pop culture reference comes to mind:

Pinky: "What are we gonna do tonight Brain?"
Brain: "The same thing we do every night Pinky: TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!"

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Post #: 989
RE: Air Card - 5/1/2009 5:42:02 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		Today we hit more bombers at Chungking. This brings up a question: Can the Allies stage aircraft through Russia? If so, they can easily make it to Alaska from India.

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Post #: 990
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