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good board wargames - 5/23/2002 5:43:30 AM   
screamer

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: The Netherlands,
Status: offline 		name some plz

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- 5/23/2002 8:33:07 AM   
Preuss

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 4/8/2002
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Depends on what you play...
For Napoleonic grand strategy, I like Empire in Arms by AH
For Napoleonic corps size battles with a HUGE emphasis on supply and march attrition, I liked AH's Struggle of Nations
For WWII on the Western front, The Longest Day gets my vote
For small unit scale fighting and flexibility, I liked AH's Panzer Leader series

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Post #: 2
- 5/23/2002 9:13:29 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Good board games.....

Well that leaves out ASL...because ASL is a friggin aaaaaaawesome game, but we are just talking about "good" wargames:D

Good I suppose means a person has played it alot.

For that I nominate Advanced Third Reich (I haven't played it in a little bit, but odds are a I played it almost as much as ASL).

Other titles that saw widespread usage. Up Front (it uses cards though so it might not be entirely a "board" game).
Fortress Europa, a very fun easy game.
Russian Campaign, basically same scale of complexity as Fortress Europa.
Russian Front, a really nice twist on the usual mechanics.
Longest Day, most thoroughly pleasing monster game in existence.
Panzer Blitz/Leader, the best game in its scale in my opinion.

The "Victory" game by Columbia games is perhaps the best non history dependent wargame ever made. Pity it seems to escape notice. The same company makes games that I call "Front" games (due to the names) the first being East Front. And they are about as good as it gets.

I of course love the Europa series monster games, but only the very lucky have space to set them up (10 square feet of table doesn't happen often eh).

I have a bunch of other games that fall into the category, liked em bought em but haven't had the pleasure of playing them much category. All real grognards can relate to having a large stash of games but only playing a few.

Most classic wargames will be every bit as good in 10 20 and 30 years from now. Why? because you can only make a wheel so good.

Computers gave us the perk of easy storage of the game. They allowed us to play solitaire (although the AI sucks usually).
Online playing existed as real play by mail before, so computers can't say they invented PBM to some extent.

What computers haven't done, is provide the comraderie of sitting with a buddy, pushing counters chuckling over lame dice rolls, and sipping beverages and scarfing down munchies for insane sums of hours.

Nice graphics and nifty sounds will never be a good replacement for enjoying a good game session with a friend.

A lot of people state that they can now finally find opponents online. Interestingly enough, I have never once played a game online. It's not that I don't want to, but I tend to not look for them.
If I can't hear you grumble over a blown dice roll, or sit and watch you ponder your moves. Well it loses the "magic". There is no "Meta" game.

That is by the way, that as big a fan of role games, I have never once played a computer version like say Baldur's gate (even though the game looks visually stunning). It's because when I game, I am doing it as a social activity.

I loathe anything that forcibly removes the social aspect of what was originally a social event.

Which is why, regardless of the advances in computers, I will aaaaaalways be a board gamer first and last. I play computer games because I have a computer. I have a computer because I like to use chat programs and I am pretending to be a writer heheh.
If I had never had a desire to write, I would have never bought a computer that first time. I wouldn't have discovered chatting (or forums, which is like delayed response chatting to me). And right now I suppose, I would be assembling a model tank or reading a book, when not playing a "real" wargame.

Yes people, I tend to call wargames that sit on your table "real" wargames. I tend to call anything on the computer a mere compromise.

But I must admit. Steel Panthers has been one of the best compromises in my life. It convinced me that you can actually enjoy a wargame on the computer. Prior to finding Steel Panthers, I was of the opinion, only the desperate wargamer used their computer to play wargames.

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Post #: 3
- 5/23/2002 10:46:25 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Rise and Decline of the Third Reich by Avalon Hill.

Patrol

Ambush


The last 2 should be made into computer versions because they would work well.

I would loved to have tried Advanced Third Reich and its sister game Rising Sun but unfortunately there were no opponents.

What Les says is true. Playing H2H in the same room as your opponent is fantastic.

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Post #: 4
- 5/23/2002 4:21:58 PM   
screamer

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: The Netherlands,
Status: offline 		well i counr axis and allies as a wargame and warhammer too [i play them both NOT on the computer] but i agree the admosphere when your sitting on a table face to face with your opponent is better then a via the net.

and what is ASL??

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- 5/23/2002 7:20:57 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		What is ASL!

Burn the heretic at the stake, string up his charred corpse and fire him out a cannon heheh.

ASL is Advanced Squad Leader man.
The game that grew out of SL or Squad Leader.
The award wining board game that even today after25 plus years is still being sold on shelves. A game with a longer life span than any wargame I can think of (other than chess maybe).

The game that Steel Panthers almost mirrors. The reason I even give a hoot for Steel Panthers (because I am only playing Steel Panthers as it looks like ASL for computer).

For THE source of ASL check out the web page of its currently producer
http://www.multimanpublishing.com/ASL/asl.php

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Post #: 6
- 5/24/2002 6:12:31 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		I'm intorducing some naval officers and analysts to wargaming.

The box of games I brought over is:

Across Five Aprils (Victory Games)
Napoleon's Last battles (TSR/SPI)
Russian Campaign (Avalon Hill)
Tac Air (Avalon Hill)
Ceasar at Alesia (Avalon Hill)
War At Sea (Avalon Hill) (Some where I lost my Victory in the Pacific :mad: )

The "top 10" most played games in my collection are:

1). ASL
2). Civil War (Victory Games)
3). Roads to Gettysburg (Avalon Hill)
4). Russian Front (Avalon Hill)
5). In their Quiet Fields (I thinks it - The Gamers Antietam game...)
6). 2nd Fleet (with MAJOR rules modifications because the rules SUCK but the map and counters are too nice not to use for something...)
7). Panzer Command (Victory Games)
8). Cold War (Victory games) a beer and pretzels classic...
9). Panzer Grenedier (Avalanche) There is a gem of a game in there somewhere and I'll find it someday...a pity the maps are godaawful..I play on my own...
10). Battle Cry (AH) - My son loves that game...the card play aspect is pretty cool. You gotta love a game with a gazillion little plastic minis :cool: :cool:

GDW's third world war deserves honorable mention as the biggest "spurt game" - played 4 full campaigns (all 4 games) one summer (the ship was in the yards) one after the other...Commies lost all 4...haven't touched it since though...

Been over a year since I played FTF though - until last week and we started the "analyst training" :D

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Post #: 7
Good Games - 5/24/2002 9:12:49 AM   
VictorH

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, U.S.
Status: offline 		1. AH's Britannia
2. The Civil War - Victory Games
3. Russian Civil War - SPI
4. Chickamauga - West End Games(Unique Command System)
5. War Between the States - SPI
6. Quebec 1759 - Gamma 2 Games
7. Year of the Rat - S&T Magazine Game
8. The Fall of Rome - S&T Magazine Game
9. Panzer Armee Afrika - S&T Magazine Game
10. World in Flames - Australian Design Group
11. Diplomacy(I have the one with wooden armys and fleets)
12. Civilization - AH
13. Pax Britannica - Victory Games
14. Machiavelli - Battle Line

Really Bad Games:
1. Gulf Strike - Victory Games - It just doesn't work.
2. Liddel Harts History of the Second World War - Task Force Games - Only one scenario is worth playing all the others just don't work.

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Post #: 8
- 5/24/2002 8:38:19 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
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Status: offline 		Interesting that you would say Gulf Strike "just doesn't work".

The Pentagon liked it enough to employ it for options analysis during the Gulf War (or so I am told, I don't routinely chat with the Pentagon heheh:) ).

But considering Liddel Harts considerable name, its a shame it was put on that game. I had it as well. And it was a lame game in my opinion as well.

Not everyone likes World In Flames, but it looks good enough that I own the whole series myself. But my gamer friends have a bias in favour of Advanced Third Reich unfortunately.

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Post #: 9
- 5/24/2002 10:49:48 PM   
scimitar

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 8/22/2001
From: Belgium
Status: offline 		Airforce/Dauntless (Battleline/AH) and Wings (Yaquinto) for aerial combat.
Liked also Panzer, '88 and Armor (Yaquinto): some kind of precursors of Steel Panthers?
Napoleon's Last Battles (SPI/Decision Games) was a must. Proud to have killed Wellington at Quatre Bras (my partner was disgusted and abandoned the play)
Flattop (Battleline/AH)
Squad Leader (but never played ASL)

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Post #: 10
- 5/25/2002 11:33:12 PM   
Challerain

 

Posts: 270
Joined: 6/16/2001
From: Mansfield, Texas
Status: offline 		Another good old AH game was Panzergruppe Guderian which I believe was a remake of an SPI game.

Terrible Swift Sword is a great Civil War game about Gettysburg.

And ASL does rule:)

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Post #: 11
- 5/26/2002 12:14:11 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Ahhh yes I recall Panzer Group Guderian, I think it had one of those maddening all in one piece boards that was obviously not created by a real wargamer (someone that knows you have to pick up the **** board now and then heheh).

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 12
Your Correct - 5/26/2002 8:58:06 AM   
VictorH

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, U.S.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Challerain
[B]Another good old AH game was Panzergruppe Guderian which I believe was a remake of an SPI game.

Terrible Swift Sword is a great Civil War game about Gettysburg.

And ASL does rule:) [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, PanzerGroup Guderian was originally an S&T Magazine Game form the 70's.

Terrible Swift Sword wa also a great game, I played it often! One game when I played the South, the North and South suffered nearly 100,000 casualties in the first day of battle. No winner, we both broke and ran on the same combat.

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Post #: 13
Pentagon - 5/26/2002 10:01:40 PM   
VictorH

 

Posts: 309
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, U.S.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Interesting that you would say Gulf Strike "just doesn't work".

The Pentagon liked it enough to employ it for options analysis during the Gulf War (or so I am told, I don't routinely chat with the Pentagon heheh:) ).

But considering Liddel Harts considerable name, its a shame it was put on that game. I had it as well. And it was a lame game in my opinion as well.

Not everyone likes World In Flames, but it looks good enough that I own the whole series myself. But my gamer friends have a bias in favour of Advanced Third Reich unfortunately. [/B][/QUOTE]

Odd to hear the Pentagon liked that game. The problem I ran into is, the game has two levels, strategic and operational. One moves from the Strategic to the Operational Level to conduct battles, etc. At each seperate level things work, but taking the transition from one to the other failed. Possibly errata came out after my friends and I gave up on the game that fixed the problem.

I like World in Flames because of the Initiative rules. They add a dimension of planning many other games lack. From time to time it's possible to get 2 moves in a row, which can be devastating to the side on the recieving end.

I can't speak about Advanced Third Reich since I have never played it. I assume it is nothing like the original Third Reich which was pretty lame.

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Post #: 14
- 5/26/2002 11:17:13 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Advanced Third Reich is essentially Third Reich without the stupid elements (like insufficient counter mix to allow for EVERY minor country to be represented).

A3R introduced the Diplomacy rules. I think this greatly magnified the game. A full manual that makes the game entirely superior.

They released Rising Sun while I was in transition from Toronto (and a reliable game market) to back home (where life is peaceful and definitely not shopping friendly heheh). With Rising Sun (which is the Pacific version of Third Reich apparently, and some have never really enjoyed it too), they introduced another major design variant...Research.
It's easy to get a copy of the Research Manual though.

Getting a copy of either A3R or Rising Sun today though, requires trolling eBay and getting ready to put out some serious cash.

Its truely a great game (not at all like its original anymore).

But if you haven't seen it, do NOT go looking for the computer version of Third Reich. Your family pet has a better intelligence rating that computer TR's AI.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 15
- 5/27/2002 12:01:17 AM   
rosary

 

Posts: 1162
Joined: 10/8/2001
From: U.S.A.
Status: offline 		These are not Wargames but they are fun.

Cosmic Encounters
Titan
RoboRally
Colonial Diplomacy (this requires a lot of players to truly enjoy)*You need to have enough players so that people forget who stabbed who in who's back on the last turn.
Blitzkrieg (this can be considered a wargame)

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Post #: 16
- 5/27/2002 1:54:50 AM   
screamer

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: The Netherlands,
Status: offline 		[advanced]third reich what kinda wargame is that??? what scale??

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Post #: 17
- 5/27/2002 5:07:08 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Ok a basic explanation for those who have never played A3R otherwise known as Advanced Third Reich.

Now of course before it was "Advanced" Third Reich, it was just plain ole Third Reich.

Back in the days of pre computer wargames (or at least wargames that could deliver something similar to an actual board game), there were no small number of titles out there. Some were simple as hell and some were more complex than some could deal with.

Some came and went, while others stuck around.
Squad Leader became Advanced Squad Leader, due to years of refinement. The same happened to Third Reich.

In its day, TR (Third Reich) was what a 10 on a difficulty scale of 1-10 (10 being the most difficult) was. This is not to say it was called a "10" by measure of popularity. But it was as complex as wargames got. Today an equal, might be Operational Art of War (which is a computer game not for the weak of enthusiasm.).

So TR can be said to be all that a wargamer could hope to expect in a wargame from a complexity persective. Or so you might think. Just when you think though, that a game has gone the distance, someone has to alter it.
That's what happened. People played TR faithfully enough, that it just continued to evolve. It became "Advanced" by merit of it being "improved".

Many things were altered. And with all boxed games, you don't get "patches". You either have 1st 2nd 3rd 4th or 5th (which came to be called Advanced, editions of the original game.

The game is a combination of basic military decisions at the corp or group level of command. It combines air and naval assets as well. At this level details are at best generic (German armour units were rated all as one identical average for instance).
You had to manage your economy to produce military formations and to execute military operations (you didn't get to fight for free).
You had to declare war to be at war, and in the Advanced versions, your diplomatic efforts could dramatically alter the course of the conflict. It was a mostly all or nothing war waged in what was known as the European theatre of operations (so that meant no Pacific warfare).
The map was at best simple, because each turn was in fact a full 3 month long season (so movement was not really affected by terrain, but by the presence of enemy forces).
If you made bad choices, you usually lost eriod end of story. It sometimes took a full year to fully realise a strategic or tactical decision was a bad one though.

Just as Steel Panthers is a much modified and much altered game. A3R is a much modified and much altered game.
Just as no one is likely to insist on playing original Steel Panthers, no one is likely to insist on playing original TR.
Both games have seen the dogged efforts of hard core gamers, dedicated to seeing the game be all it can possibly be.

Improving on A3R will be identical to improving on Steel Panthers.

I don't doubt there are those, that think Global War 2000 (the current attempt to marry all that is A3R with all that is Rising Sun....The Pacific theatre companion to A3R), is the ultimate expression of the game. Some though refuse to go that route.

It is the same hurdle that Combat Leader will have to face. No matter how grand a game it is, it has to suffer the fate of constant comparison to Steel Pnthers. And no one is going to tell me that will be an easy act to follow.

Today Steel Panthers has been subjected to so much tweaking, that it can't help but be as good as is realistic to ask of it.

When Combat Leader arrives, it won't have had the several years of intense analysis. It will have to go down that road that all software must pass. Bug problems if they exist, critiques of accuracy, complaints on just plain design aspects.
Steel Panthers has already travelled that road.

So too has A3R. Today a person either likes A3R or they don't. But no one that likes it will be interested in listening to someone claim they can make it better, without that person being really on the ball first.

As long as I have been wargaming (which as far as I am concerned is as long as the board game hobby has existed hehe), I have never seen any game that can compare to Advanced Third Reich or its equally fine competitor World In Flames. They are not out there to the best of my knowledge.
Both games are a 10 on any scale in my opinion.

But they have one weakness not found in software. If you haven't mastered English at close to the university level, you are going to have squabbles on rules interpretations eventually. Actually being extremely literate just makes the arguements more inciteful sometimes.
Software doesn't come with rules disputes basically. People either think the game is good and play it, or they claim the game sucks and it doesn't get played. But interpreting the rules is not an option, because it's going to run the way it's programmed whether ya like it or not.
What grognards know as "errata" is in computer terms called a "bug" I suppose. With errata you just leave it in the box to refer to. Bugs require a person have access to it to modify the software. After that the bug is gone.

Hope that beat the snot out of your question screamer heheh:)

Stay tuned as I will be explaining the Unified Field Theory shortly heheheh:D

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
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Post #: 18
- 5/27/2002 8:56:36 AM   
Preuss

 

Posts: 372
Joined: 4/8/2002
From: Australia
Status: offline 		*Hack*...*cough*...*Sputter*

Who said Axis and Allies???

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Post #: 19
- 5/27/2002 9:45:22 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Hehehe saying "Axis and Allies" is undeserving of a nod is like saying chess is boring to some extent.

Sure it has unwargamer looking playing pieces (but those pieces in chess look a bit odd too when compared to our wonderful card stock counters).

I don't think Axis n Allies on the computer is worth playing against the AI though. Man the AI for even Iron Blitz is incredibly lame at best.

But it performs well when humans are playing the sides (and it's easy to clean up after a game).

To say its not accurate says nothing really. 5 seconds after starting any game, you have strayed from the actual history of the event.

So in the end, all I require of a wargame is it must be reliable fun and unbiased.
And I have whooped serious butt with each side (so I am happy to say its not unplayable).

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 20
Too Complex! - 6/5/2002 3:14:57 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I have a real fondness for Airwar. Unfortuately, the level of complexity (3d spacial movement) and utter lack of interest by my usual cadre of opponents, left me playing solo for the most part. :(

Hardcore wargamers are quite difficult to find.

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