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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII

 
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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 8:40:41 PM   
Tiornu

 

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Ooh, I'm just one post away from my new Dr Phil tattoo!

quote:

 i still believe that the General Chase order was a mistake and led to a disorderly mob like pursuit which left the major hitters too vulnerable to interference and damage from Taffy's escort.

Disorder vs interfering immediately with enemy flight operations. Which are you more afraid of, six DDs and DEs or multiple dozens of aircraft? And which actually caused more damage? If we look at it from Kurita's standpoint, initially thinking he was up against a fast CV-BB group, his enemy's response would have to be hastier in proportion to the haste of the attack. A matter of preference?

quote:

What possible advantage would it confer vs a Yamato

If you look at the penetration tabels at that web site, you'll see that the American 16in/45 (as in SoDak) actually has greater deck penetration than the 16in/50 out to the maximum range of the shorter gun. Fired at lower velocity, the shell has to arch up higher and then plunge down more steeply. The tables show the descent angle and striking velocity.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 8:41:19 PM   
Tiornu

 

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Dr Phil, here I come!

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 8:45:20 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

quote:

What possible advantage would it confer vs a Yamato

If you look at the penetration tabels at that web site, you'll see that the American 16in/45 (as in SoDak) actually has greater deck penetration than the 16in/50 out to the maximum range of the shorter gun. Fired at lower velocity, the shell has to arch up higher and then plunge down more steeply. The tables show the descent angle and striking velocity.


Doh! I was presuming that due to the long range the angle would be sufficiently plunging anyway. Thanks.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 8:58:18 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Disorder vs interfering immediately with enemy flight operations. Which are you more afraid of, six DDs and DEs or multiple dozens of aircraft? And which actually caused more damage? If we look at it from Kurita's standpoint, initially thinking he was up against a fast CV-BB group, his enemy's response would have to be hastier in proportion to the haste of the attack. A matter of preference?


Point. Kurita did think he was facing a fast CV-BB force. But unless the planes were ready immediately, they couldn't have gotten off a powerful counter air attack that quickly. If the wind direction was not running away from his force, the carriers would be forced to turn towards him to launch quickly giving him his window of opportunity.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 9:09:07 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Disorder vs interfering immediately with enemy flight operations. Which are you more afraid of, six DDs and DEs or multiple dozens of aircraft? And which actually caused more damage? If we look at it from Kurita's standpoint, initially thinking he was up against a fast CV-BB group, his enemy's response would have to be hastier in proportion to the haste of the attack. A matter of preference?


Point. Kurita did think he was facing a fast CV-BB force. But unless the planes were ready immediately, they couldn't have gotten off a powerful counter air attack that quickly. If the wind direction was not running away from his force, the carriers would be forced to turn towards him to launch quickly giving him his window of opportunity.


But why would they bother? Send the BB's and cruisers while the carriers flee, launching only when safe enough to do so.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 9:17:43 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

But why would they bother? Send the BB's and cruisers while the carriers flee, launching only when safe enough to do so.


A scenario that does make me dislike the GC order even more so. Admitedly though that might be hindsight influencing my thought process.


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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 9:24:52 PM   
witpqs


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One thing I like about doing what-if stuff with this crowd is that people are very careful about recognizing hindsight and being respectful of the problems the commanders faced.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 9:53:01 PM   
Tiornu

 

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The carriers can flee, yes, but you want them to flee in a certain direction, which only fast action can cause.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 9:55:24 PM   
Terminus


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I still think that Samar went the way it did largely because of the General Chase order. Command and control is SO important, and when Kurita abandoned this, he left his force wide open to disruption by action from the logically vastly inferior Taffy 3.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 10:07:45 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

The carriers can flee, yes, but you want them to flee in a certain direction, which only fast action can cause.


Which in the case of the what-if Kurita had encountered the fast CV/BB force, only means "away from Kurita" with the BB's and other escorts in between. The fast CV's were at least as fast as Kruita's force. With the fast BB's and other escorts engaging for a death match I feel sure the fast CV's would have gotten away.

You say "which only fast action can cause". I take that to be a comment on the reaction time of the US forces to sighting reports. Taffy 3 reacted slowly because of a combination of disbelief and mistaken assumption that they reporting aircraft must have sited US ships. However, in the case of the fast CV/BB fleet, they were the other US ships that Kurita's force might have been mistaken for. Do you still think they would have reacted slowly enough to get caught?

BTW, nice tattoo.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 10:42:01 PM   
Tiornu

 

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quote:

Which in the case of the what-if Kurita had encountered the fast CV/BB force, only means "away from Kurita" with the BB's and other escorts in between.

That's not precise enough. The CVE's historically wanted to head SE (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) but were succesfully corralled and directed SW. If the carriers were 30-knot ships rather than 18-knotters, it would have taken considerably longer to force that SW swing. Hopefully you could pull it off before a coordinated strike could be ranged for launching. While this is going on, the US surface units have a choice--they can carefully extract themselves from their formations with the carriers and form up for surface battle (how long does that take?) or they can make a GA of their own.

quote:

The fast CV's were at least as fast as Kruita's force. With the fast BB's and other escorts engaging for a death match I feel sure the fast CV's would have gotten away.

Essexes are slower than the Japanese cruisers and destroyers which got their headstart from the GA order.
How come no one criticizes Johnston for performing a GA? I'll point out that US carrier doctrine was analogous to the GA order, forfeiting coordination to get a strike in as quickly as possible, and it was a successful doctrine. Kurita's order was not built on the "pulse" concept that drove the carrier doctrine, but it had an analogous benefit. He needed to "out-draw" the other gunfighter. His fast action would force a similar fast action by the enemy, and Kurita's advantage lay in getting his superior torpedo forces into effective range as quickly as possible. Now, that didn't work as well with an enemy who was intent on flight, but if a battle line had come to meet him, his torpedoes might have been very successful.
That's probably all I can say on the subject.

quote:

BTW, nice tattoo.

It's so cool. It looks just like him. I think. I can't really see it well, but it's either a perfect representation of Dr Phil, or maybe some kind of summer squash. Either way, it's super-cool.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 10:45:49 PM   
Hornblower


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I just love how this thread is jumping all over the place....  Q-Ball thanks for thinking this one up...

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 10:50:12 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

quote:

Which in the case of the what-if Kurita had encountered the fast CV/BB force, only means "away from Kurita" with the BB's and other escorts in between.

That's not precise enough. The CVE's historically wanted to head SE (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) but were succesfully corralled and directed SW. If the carriers were 30-knot ships rather than 18-knotters, it would have taken considerably longer to force that SW swing. Hopefully you could pull it off before a coordinated strike could be ranged for launching. While this is going on, the US surface units have a choice--they can carefully extract themselves from their formations with the carriers and form up for surface battle (how long does that take?) or they can make a GA of their own.

quote:

The fast CV's were at least as fast as Kruita's force. With the fast BB's and other escorts engaging for a death match I feel sure the fast CV's would have gotten away.

Essexes are slower than the Japanese cruisers and destroyers which got their headstart from the GA order.
How come no one criticizes Johnston for performing a GA? I'll point out that US carrier doctrine was analogous to the GA order, forfeiting coordination to get a strike in as quickly as possible, and it was a successful doctrine. Kurita's order was not built on the "pulse" concept that drove the carrier doctrine, but it had an analogous benefit. He needed to "out-draw" the other gunfighter. His fast action would force a similar fast action by the enemy, and Kurita's advantage lay in getting his superior torpedo forces into effective range as quickly as possible. Now, that didn't work as well with an enemy who was intent on flight, but if a battle line had come to meet him, his torpedoes might have been very successful.
That's probably all I can say on the subject.

quote:

BTW, nice tattoo.

It's so cool. It looks just like him. I think. I can't really see it well, but it's either a perfect representation of Dr Phil, or maybe some kind of summer squash. Either way, it's super-cool.


Forum member Dixie made it for me.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/1/2009 11:36:02 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Much baloney and then...Also are there any real examples of long range gunnery by US ships against other ships in 43,44,45?


Yes.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 1:18:46 AM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu
That's not precise enough. The CVE's historically wanted to head SE (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) but were succesfully corralled and directed SW. If the carriers were 30-knot ships rather than 18-knotters, it would have taken considerably longer to force that SW swing. Hopefully you could pull it off before a coordinated strike could be ranged for launching. While this is going on, the US surface units have a choice--they can carefully extract themselves from their formations with the carriers and form up for surface battle (how long does that take?) or they can make a GA of their own.



According to my two books on the battle, Taffy 3 beat a retreat due east initially which happened to also put the flight decks in the wind allowing them to scramble available planes so it would appear the gig was up from the moment Kurita arrived on the scene as far as preventing air launch was concerned.

Kurita's "charge" order seemed to discomfort his commanding officer's, suggesting that they expected a more organized pursuit. According to Vice Admiral Ugaki, the sudden order seemed to unsettle the commanding officers of the fleet and response was slowed as a result. (going from AA formation to sudden free wheel attack also sowed additional confusion)

Sprague's turn to the SW, according to one book seems to have been initiated by Sprague himself as a gamble, and followed the course of a local rain squall.

I'll keep reviewing. (wish i had a photographic memory!!!! too many books, too little brain hard drive space!!!!) I'm still of the opinion that Kurita should have organized his fleet prior to pursuit. Kurita is cut a little slack by a mention that had he had better intel, he might have done things differently. Bereft of hindsight, i can see your point though, even if i'm seeing of bit of the Beatty in Kurita where i'd rather see the Jellicoe.

(Great discussion though!)

quote:


It's so cool. It looks just like him. I think. I can't really see it well, but it's either a perfect representation of Dr Phil, or maybe some kind of summer squash. Either way, it's super-cool.


congrats on 1000+ posts. You just need about 27,000 more posts and you can top Spaminus.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 5/2/2009 1:19:18 AM >


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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 1:31:08 AM   
vettim89


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To add another element to the Samar Battle: it has been proposed by some that many of the hits and near misses during the air battle of the proceeding day knocked the optics slightly out of line on the Japanese battleline. Kurita himself has been quoted as "Our shooting was particular poor that day". I know that some criticize the actions of Johnston as unnecessarily suicidal but the TT's launched cause the Japanese formation to break up and cohesion was further lost

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 1:41:04 AM   
witpqs


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I for one certainly would not criticize the actions of Johnston but the notion of the optics getting buggered is interesting.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 1:56:41 AM   
Nikademus


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crew fatigue was also mentioned. They had been at action stations the entire night before as well as during the prior day when suffering continual air attack. Kurita wasn't in the best shape either. The ship damage doesn't suprise me though it would have been far worse had Musashi not soaked up so much of the attacks.

I want to read that WI article. I'm intrigued.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 4:24:48 AM   
mikemike

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

quote:

I would appreciate it muchly. very interested in this.

All right, I found the following quotes. They're from Henry Schade, a member of the NTM in Europe. You may want to track down his article that appeared in the Transactions of the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers, Vol 54, 1946--in fact, I'm certain you'll want to see it because it spends several pages covering the entire Type XXI construction process. As a bonus, you'll also find articles on turbine development and ice-breaker design.
"In an effort to meet the unrealistic quotas, the section yards and the fitting yards would move assemblies along to the next yard in an uncompleted status which served only to magnify the troubles and eventually cause delays at the assembly yards waiting for the missing items. Because of difficulties of the inexperienced structural plants in producing sections within tolerance, the assembly yards tried to reshuffle sections to get a better match, and some confusion and inefficiency thereby resulted."


so it would seem that the rush rush part is the primary culprit.



I think the Schade quote hits the nail on the head; the fitted-out sections as delivered to the assembly yards were certainly within specs as such, but remedial work needed to achieve this slowed down the rate of delivery significantly.

Sectional construction as such was a good decision; it especially cut down on time to install the equipment, because the interior of the section was freely accessible, mostly from both ends; with conventionally constructed subs all the equipment had to be brought into the pressure hull through the hatches and torpedo tubes, and space for the workers was decidedly limited. Where the Type XXI building process went seriously wrong was with farming out major structural work to companies from a different engineering branch. These were all companies who normally did steel structural construction, like tanks for water towers, bridges, or steel skeletons for industrial buildings. They were not just inexperienced in shipbuilding, but they actually could not understand technical drawings and specifications intended for shipyards, as the specification methods, drawing styles, and the symbology used in the drawings were different. The documentation actually had to be translated first. There was a significant delay before the parts started to arrive at the section yards, and they weren't always complete even if in tolerance dimensionally.

It also appears that thermal expansion effects were not taken properly into account (this isn't much of a problem when the whole structure is assembled piecemeal in one spot), so even if the subcontractors built to precise dimensions, there's going to be trouble if you try matching a section built at 20 degrees C to one that was built at 5 deg C. When the mismatch was significant, the assembly yards would (in tailoring language) cut tucks into the rim of the pressure hull ring and take it in until the diameters matched. That cannot have benefitted structural strength and integrity. The project management office reckoned from the beginning that the first six boats delivered by each assembly yard would probably not be fully combat worthy, regarding them as pre-series production, whereas the navy wanted to get ships to the front as quickly as possible, a conflict of interests that went unnoticed until production problems surfaced.

In hindsight, it would have been better to let the yards do all the structural work; the first boats could have been delivered maybe five or six months earlier if the yards hadn't had to wait for the subcontractors to get their act together. Rolling the hull plates and cutting the steel parts to size could still have been contracted out.

Some comments to modular construction today:
- I once visited the Meyer shipyards who specialize in cruise liners; the ships are assembled in covered dry docks from modules that reach across the whole width of the ship and weigh between 400 and 800 tons. The guide told us that they have a tolerance of 3-4 mm across a hull width of PANAMAX size (about 32,9 metres / 107 ft). Sizing the plates has to take into account thermal expansion/shrinking caused by welding.

- The Airbus assembly lines in Hamburg and Toulouse have to compensate for deformation of the hangar floor due to tidal effects when mating fuselage sections.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 2:59:09 PM   
Jaroen


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On WW2 ship design I would love to have some good source material to read.
I was very much intrigued with what I consider the main issue; what defines a good design!?

From this discussion I figured it would be good to start reading:
Nelson to Vanguard: Warship Design and Development 1923-1945; by D.K. Brown
and on the side:
Warships of World War II: Pts. 1-8; by H.T. Lenton and J.J. Colledge.
Both can be found on Amazon (UK) for reasonable prizes. I would be glad having someones comment on those titles. Are they recommended?

Browsing the web I found an already familiar website on naval technology covering many of the arguments offered in this thread. Quite possibly you already know the link:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/index_tech.htm
Especially interesting (both funny and enlightening) was the article on ship design by Stuart Slade:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-035.htm
It seemed to me it was discussing the design of the KG-V class battleships.

Hope you guys enjoy the links!

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 2:59:12 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu
All right, I found the following quotes. They're from Henry Schade, a member of the NTM in Europe. You may want to track down his article that appeared in the Transactions of the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers, Vol 54, 1946--in fact, I'm certain you'll want to see it because it spends several pages covering the entire Type XXI construction process. As a bonus, you'll also find articles on turbine development and ice-breaker design.
"In an effort to meet the unrealistic quotas, the section yards and the fitting yards would move assemblies along to the next yard in an uncompleted status which served only to magnify the troubles and eventually cause delays at the assembly yards waiting for the missing items. Because of difficulties of the inexperienced structural plants in producing sections within tolerance, the assembly yards tried to reshuffle sections to get a better match, and some confusion and inefficiency thereby resulted."

Thank you much. I'm a member and take Transactions, so I'll track it down and definitely get a reprint. Ya'll maybe want to know when I get it?

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 5:36:57 PM   
JWE

 

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Ok, it’s coming, Tues or Wed. Expensive little puppy.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
<snip>, it would seem to suggest that Blair was being a tad bit misleading as his paragraph leads the reader to believe that multiple major aspects of the H. system were all located outside the pressure hull.

While online, found some stuff on hydraulic system. “Type-XXI U-Boat” by Kohl & Rossler has some beautiful design drawings and details, sectional cut-aways, has hydraulics installations inside pressure hull. Also found some pictures at http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2003/11/detail_uboot_xxi.htm that show main hydraulics installation, rudder actuator, etc .. inside pressure hull. Maybe it’s my simple brain, but just can’t grasp what Blair means.


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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 5:57:27 PM   
mdiehl

 

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I doubt that anyone has ever compared Jun 1943+ USN surface gunnery accuracy with older or pre-war accuracy, but I also very strongly doubt that the difference between USN radar from mid-1943 radar and anyone's optical fire control was a mere 25% improvement. I'd believe a full order of magnitude improvement unless otherwise proven.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 6:05:55 PM   
Tiornu

 

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quote:

I would be glad having someones comment on those titles.

The Lenton series of booklets are more a listing than an appraisal. If that's what you need, you might want to look for his single volume British and Empire Warships, which is very large and probably priced to match, but it's a great reference to have.
Anything by DK Brown is worth having. He died recently, and I think he has one more Warship article to be published, but that will be the last we have from him.
If anyone cares, I'm hoping to have a new paperback edition of my FLEETS OF WORLD WAR II book available by year's end. Compared to a reference like Conway's, it has little in terms of stats and such but instead focuses on the real-world qualities of the ships and navies. Also, one of the essays in my booklet IN THE SHADOW OF THE BATTLESHIP directly confronts the concept of "best" and shows how varying definitions might lead to different choices on the best treaty cruiser.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 6:16:08 PM   
Nikademus


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Concur on DK Brown. Only currently have one of his books (Grand Fleet) but it's a great reference. Others on "the list"

I'm not sure about author Richard Worth though......kind of a shady character. Big head. Likes gold stars.



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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 6:20:37 PM   
Terminus


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And has an unfortunate Dr. Phil fetish, it seems... Most disturbing...

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 6:21:37 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ok, it’s coming, Tues or Wed. Expensive little puppy.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
<snip>, it would seem to suggest that Blair was being a tad bit misleading as his paragraph leads the reader to believe that multiple major aspects of the H. system were all located outside the pressure hull.

While online, found some stuff on hydraulic system. “Type-XXI U-Boat” by Kohl & Rossler has some beautiful design drawings and details, sectional cut-aways, has hydraulics installations inside pressure hull. Also found some pictures at http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2003/11/detail_uboot_xxi.htm that show main hydraulics installation, rudder actuator, etc .. inside pressure hull. Maybe it’s my simple brain, but just can’t grasp what Blair means.




Its the one Pooka of what he wrote. Based on the good info posted by yourself, MM and Tironu, its easy to see the shades of interpretation and summary that might have gone into Blair's quick analysis in his forward on the Type XXI. There are degrees of truth one might say even in generalization. Except for the hydraulics part. I can't grasp it either. It seems either clearly wrong. Whether deliberate or mistaken i don't know. His account in the forward to his book suggests that he personally examined a Type XXI.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 6:22:28 PM   
Tiornu

 

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quote:

I also very strongly doubt that the difference between USN radar from mid-1943 radar and anyone's optical fire control was a mere 25% improvement.

I yanked that number from AMP Report No. 79.2R "Accuracy of the Gunfire of Main Batteries of United States Battleships" for the National Defense Research Committee. It dates to 1944 and uses Iowa as a benchmark for its comparisons of the different gunnery processes. The analysis is intense. One table summarizes hit percentages at four target angles (0, 30, 60, and 90 degrees) and projects the number of hits to be expected in each case at ranges listed in 2000-yard increments out to 34,000 yards. At that range and a target angle of 90deg, the radar ship would get 23.53% more hits; for 0deg, it's 10%. The greatest boost for radar appears to be at around 20,000 yards were the advantages are 26.83-32.38%.

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RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 6:30:29 PM   
Tiornu

 

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quote:

And has an unfortunate Dr. Phil fetish, it seems... Most disturbing...

Update: I'm told that the tattoo is not in fact Dr Phil but an ancient Toltec deity best remembered for inventing the Twinkee. Not only that, but it's not actually on the back of MY head, so clearly I have dodged a bullet.
On the subject of "best," it occurs to me that George Moore's Building for Victory offers an excellent account of how the RN decided which ships best fit its needs during WWII. I don't know any other book like it.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 479
RE: Best Designed Ship of WWII - 5/2/2009 6:36:36 PM   
Nikademus


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Joined: 5/27/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu
I yanked that number from AMP Report No. 79.2R "Accuracy of the Gunfire of Main Batteries of United States Battleships" for the National Defense Research Committee. It dates to 1944 and uses Iowa as a benchmark for its comparisons of the different gunnery processes. The analysis is intense. One table summarizes hit percentages at four target angles (0, 30, 60, and 90 degrees) and projects the number of hits to be expected in each case at ranges listed in 2000-yard increments out to 34,000 yards. At that range and a target angle of 90deg, the radar ship would get 23.53% more hits; for 0deg, it's 10%. The greatest boost for radar appears to be at around 20,000 yards were the advantages are 26.83-32.38%.


Interesting stuff to be sure and interesting that the hit %'s were very close in alot of places. Still amazed that Plane spotting kept coming out on top over the other two spotting methods (Top and radar). Gonna be a long reading.

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(in reply to Tiornu)
Post #: 480
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