Interceptor range and Legal moves

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Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/3/2009 5:50:00 PM

Gneisenau

Posts: 22
Joined: 7/17/2004
From: Virginia
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Am new to MWIF and WIF in general. Was reading up on Fighter Interceptor range and had a question. The ME-109 has a poor range of 3. If intercepting
with a ME-109, is her new range 1 or 2? Second question. Forgive if it's a rehash. When the player selects a unit to move, will MWIF somehow show the
legal areas on the map that the particular unit can legally move? Thanx

Post #: 1

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/3/2009 7:33:06 PM

praem

Posts: 220
Joined: 12/15/2007
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you round fractions up -so ME109 has a range of 2 for intercept

(in reply to Gneisenau)

Post #: 2

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 12:09:40 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gneisenau

Am new to MWIF and WIF in general. Was reading up on Fighter Interceptor range and had a question. The ME-109 has a poor range of 3. If intercepting
with a ME-109, is her new range 1 or 2? Second question. Forgive if it's a rehash. When the player selects a unit to move, will MWIF somehow show the
legal areas on the map that the particular unit can legally move? Thanx

This question comes up every so often and the answer (so far) is no.

Land units don't have a very large range, so determining where they can legally move is fairly easy: pick up the unit and then pass the cursor over hexes you are considering. A CrossHairs cursor indicates it's ok to move the unit there. An X means it is not, and the universal message bar on the Main form explains why a move is illegal.

The same system works for the air and naval units, though both of those types of units have a wide range of hexes. A strategic bomber with an extended range of 17 (effectively it can go 34 hexes) has hundreds of possible hexes. Naval units don't have a many choices but since they are moving into sea areas (most of the time) they can move even farther. For instance, a naval unit with a range of 6 can move from Plymouth in England through Gibraltar, Suez and the Red Sea, or head south east and pass through the Panama Canal, or head due south to South Africa. Displaying "legal areas on the map ..." is daunting under these circumstances, and I am not sure it is very helpful.

Mainly I am concerned about adding more graphics on top of a map that has so much information within each hex.

I have added the ability to "return air unit to the base from which its mission originated" to my to-do list. That would be used often and relieves the player from trying remember exactly to which hexes multiple air units have to return in order for them to not exceed stacking limits.

I also have an item on my to-do list that I have moved to post-release which is to identify which hexes an air unit can attack/intercept. Those are fairly few in number for many air missions - though not for air transport, air reorganization, or paradrops.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Gneisenau)

Post #: 3

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 12:42:13 AM

Gneisenau

Posts: 22
Joined: 7/17/2004
From: Virginia
Status: offline

Thanks for the answer Shannon and praem. The 'crosshair' system which is employed will do just fine. As a 'newguy' I was just wondering what type of legal move assistance MWIF used so as to help me make possible choices. As far as the ME109 interceptor range goes, good thing it is rounded up or they would almost be useless. Am VERY IMPRESSED with what I see.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 4

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 4:04:49 AM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gneisenau
As far as the ME109 interceptor range goes, good thing it is rounded up or they would almost be useless. Am VERY IMPRESSED with what I see.

Their short range did almost make them useless. It was what cost the Germans the Battle of Britain. Along with the Luftwaffe letting the British fighter bases off the ropes by switching to other targets.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Gneisenau)

Post #: 5

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 12:16:43 PM

Norden_slith

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Joined: 8/27/2003
From: expatriate german
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An interesting angle is the story of Ernst udet who was very involved in building the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe was basically designed to follow the Army, especially the new Panzerarm, and support it. In consequence, the planes ranges reflect that. The Me-109 was never meant to fight over Britain. Actually it was calculated the war would end with the conquest of France. The Airwar over Britain strained the Luftwaffe even further. When they attacked Russia, Udet saw the writing on the wall - purely from the Luftwaffe perspective, but with obvious implications. Very interesting story, but the point is the plane works just fine, as originally intended.

There are some interesting movies on Youtube about Udets flying abilities, btw.

Another story says, he "invented" the Stuka with her extremely steep dive. Of course, beeing a genius pilot, he didnt have any trouble with that, while more ordinary fliers drove their planes straight into the ground.

_____________________________

Norden
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 6

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 12:33:16 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden

An interesting angle is the story of Ernst udet who was very involved in building the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe was basically designed to follow the Army, especially the new Panzerarm, and support it. In consequence, the planes ranges reflect that. The Me-109 was never meant to fight over Britain. Actually it was calculated the war would end with the conquest of France. The Airwar over Britain strained the Luftwaffe even further. When they attacked Russia, Udet saw the writing on the wall - purely from the Luftwaffe perspective, but with obvious implications. Very interesting story, but the point is the plane works just fine, as originally intended.

There are some interesting movies on Youtube about Udets flying abilities, btw.

Another story says, he "invented" the Stuka with her extremely steep dive. Of course, beeing a genius pilot, he didnt have any trouble with that, while more ordinary fliers drove their planes straight into the ground.

interesting, where do those stories come from ?, he seen some U.S. Divebombers in a trial, and wanted to buy them, and when he got back, made the spec's for the Divebomber for the LW (think it was the Curtis SBC HellDiver (not to be confused with the later SB2C HellDiver of WWII)

also, the Stuka (type) had a auto pullout, you could black out in the dive and the plane would still pullout of the dive (of course, it could be overrode)

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(in reply to Norden_slith)

Post #: 7

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 2:50:58 PM

micheljq

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Joined: 3/31/2008
From: Quebec
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gneisenau
As far as the ME109 interceptor range goes, good thing it is rounded up or they would almost be useless. Am VERY IMPRESSED with what I see.

Their short range did almost make them useless. It was what cost the Germans the Battle of Britain. Along with the Luftwaffe letting the British fighter bases off the ropes by switching to other targets.

Good Hunting.

MR

The fighters can escort on ground strike/strategic bombing/ground support missions, in that case the ME109 would have a range of 3, it's full range

The fighters can also do CAP missions, in this case they have their full range too.

Maybe useless over britain, but I play USSR and I am not happy to have the ME109s on my front.

Fighters often do not have a nice range, in particular the british, russians, germans also. Many fighters later on have a nice range of 5 or 6. There are the FTR2, which cost 2 BPs and take 2 turns to produce and those that cost 3 BPs and take 3 turns to produce, the FTR3. In general FTR3 have a nice range and are often used over sea zones.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 8

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 6:30:10 PM

obermeister

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Small point I wanted to make, fractions round to the nearest whole number, so only 0.5 and greater round up. But 3 halved to 1.5 rounds up to 2, so you are correct.

(in reply to praem)

Post #: 9

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 8:10:10 PM

Mike Parker

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Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Houston TX
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I have to say 109's over France and the USSR are very effective. Moreso over France I have found in my limited games, but even in the USSR when you reach a place the soviet player needs to defend your 109's are then within range to protect your TAC. Against France I find the 109 can effectively counter-air as the French keep their fighters closer to the front that the Russians.

I would prefer they have range 4 or 5 of course but.

(in reply to obermeister)

Post #: 10

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/4/2009 8:28:02 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I have to say 109's over France and the USSR are very effective.� Moreso over France I have found in my limited games, but even in the USSR when you reach a place the soviet player needs to defend your 109's are then within range to protect your TAC.� Against France I find the 109 can effectively counter-air as the French keep their fighters closer to the front that the Russians.

I would prefer they have range 4 or 5 of course but.

I usually have trouble keeping the shortrange fighters close to the front in USSR. There is also a major risk of having shortrange AC overrun on the mobile front in Russia.

(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 11

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/5/2009 2:44:17 AM

Mad Russian

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I have to say 109's over France and the USSR are very effective.� Moreso over France I have found in my limited games, but even in the USSR when you reach a place the soviet player needs to defend your 109's are then within range to protect your TAC.� Against France I find the 109 can effectively counter-air as the French keep their fighters closer to the front that the Russians.

I would prefer they have range 4 or 5 of course but.

The Me-109 is effective everywhere but in England and Russia.

The 109's are effective in small combat areas. That makes the short range of the 109 a non-factor. Sea boxes are the same if they are stationed right on the coastal hexes.

Move them to England or Russia, where the ranges are extended and the 109 does really well when the ENEMY wants to fight. There are normally so few fighters to control the airspace that are vital to your offensives there is nothing left to try to control or can reach other areas. Those areas get to do without. Large tracts of the Soviet Union fall into this category.

As has been noted the Spitfire has exactly the same problem.

The smaller the combat area, the more effective they become. They can both be extremely effective in sea boxes, Italy and North Africa.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/5/2009 2:49:12 AM >

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(in reply to Mike Parker)

Post #: 12

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/5/2009 2:02:23 PM

micheljq

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From: Quebec
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

The Me-109 is effective everywhere but in England and Russia.

The 109's are effective in small combat areas. That makes the short range of the 109 a non-factor. Sea boxes are the same if they are stationed right on the coastal hexes.

Move them to England or Russia, where the ranges are extended and the 109 does really well when the ENEMY wants to fight. There are normally so few fighters to control the airspace that are vital to your offensives there is nothing left to try to control or can reach other areas. Those areas get to do without. Large tracts of the Soviet Union fall into this category.

Good Hunting.

MR

I will not speak for myself, did not play Germany a lot. But I must say Axis players I know do the contrary of what you say. They use the ME109 intensively because in the first years it's one of the rare fighters with 6 of air rating, they don't really care if it has a range of 3, they don't have anything better anyway. Except in sea zones where they prefer to use long range fighters like the ME110. With his range of 3, the ME109 can only go into the "1" seabox, which is not good if you want a good probability to find enemy ships and have a lot of surprise points.

They use it a lot on the eastern front, USSR airforce can strike anywhere with it's bombers, so they need a lot of fighters to deter the soviets from using their land bombers.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 5/5/2009 2:06:36 PM >

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 13

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/5/2009 2:07:38 PM

Mike Parker

Posts: 583
Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Houston TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
The Me-109 is effective everywhere but in England and Russia.

The 109's are effective in small combat areas. That makes the short range of the 109 a non-factor. Sea boxes are the same if they are stationed right on the coastal hexes.

Move them to England or Russia, where the ranges are extended and the 109 does really well when the ENEMY wants to fight. There are normally so few fighters to control the airspace that are vital to your offensives there is nothing left to try to control or can reach other areas. Those areas get to do without. Large tracts of the Soviet Union fall into this category.

As has been noted the Spitfire has exactly the same problem.

The smaller the combat area, the more effective they become. They can both be extremely effective in sea boxes, Italy and North Africa.

Good Hunting.

MR

*ponders* I say they are effective in Russia, but I suppose that needs some clarification.

In my eyes you never have enough in the east. If I had enough 4-5 range fighters in '41 I would be ecstatic (and spoiled rotten too). So I am forced to use the 3 range 109's. Perhaps I have just gotten used to it, but I find them effective when I need to atack someplace that the Russian player feels he needs to defend.

I am a big believer in using Tac, why could be a whole other topic, but in order to use Tac effectively you need to have Fighters. When the Russians defend someplace, I can almost exclusively use my shorter range fighters to cover the Tac air. That way I use my longer range fighters elsewhere. I tend to find that there are enough places where the Russians feel obliged to resist that I can get use out of the 109's. And if the Russian's aren't resisting anywhere and just falling back, then I suppose I shouldn't be upset that my 109's aren't being used and instead be delighted at how well the attack is going.

Perhaps my few games played give me a warped perspective, but I have never felt I had as much air as I wanted, so I end up with 109's in Russia. It could also be that often I build 109's while fighting Poland and France, and they are truly excellent in those campaigns so I might be less critical of them because I have nostalgia over past glories!

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 14

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/5/2009 2:38:11 PM

Greywolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have added the ability to "return air unit to the base from which its mission originated" to my to-do list. That would be used often and relieves the player from trying remember exactly to which hexes multiple air units have to return in order for them to not exceed stacking limits.

Well, dont be in a hurry to add it because it wont be used as often as you can think. Except for some repeat mission like naval patrol or strategic bombing I found that the planes usually dont land back from where they take off. and that is especially true of thoses low range Me 109 and Stukas.

That is not because you take off from 3,5,7 or even 9 hexes from the front that you need to land the same distance away. Landing closer is a necessity for some of the lowest range aircraft. It is also nice to do some rebasing over ennemy territory or as I call them Get the rebase and the buck by flying mission then rebase on your way out. Like a US or Britain bomber that could fly from London on a strategic mission deep in Italy or Yougoslavia then land in Italy or Middle-East to be ready to help there next turn. Sure you can do the same with a standard rebase, but it is funnier this way ;)

Could also help when the turn is close to an end and you lack the Air Activities to do a massive fighter rebase to have them fly CAP then land further away. It is a bit shorter than a rebase and will turn them back, but it doesnt take air action limit, same for interception and escort.

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 15

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/5/2009 3:57:26 PM

composer99

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Me-109s are effective in(vading) England, just not when you're trying to support a far-reaching strategic air war over England from bases in France and the Low Countries. They can still escort strat bombers to London, I suppose, but they are most useful once you've landed.

Similarly, the Germans don't have enough non-109 fighters in 1940 and 1941 to use them exclusively in the USSR, and more importantly their longer-range fighters are mostly twin-engine (i.e. less effective) fighters, which you don't want to escort your bombers with. There are only so many FW-190s to go around.

I don't think the Germans get many effective long-range fighters until 1943 at the earliest.

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~ Composer99

(in reply to Greywolf)

Post #: 16

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/5/2009 6:16:29 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have added the ability to "return air unit to the base from which its mission originated" to my to-do list. That would be used often and relieves the player from trying remember exactly to which hexes multiple air units have to return in order for them to not exceed stacking limits.

Well, dont be in a hurry to add it because it wont be used as often as you can think. Except for some repeat mission like naval patrol or strategic bombing I found that the planes usually dont land back from where they take off. and that is especially true of thoses low range Me 109 and Stukas.

That is not because you take off from 3,5,7 or even 9 hexes from the front that you need to land the same distance away. Landing closer is a necessity for some of the lowest range aircraft. It is also nice to do some rebasing over ennemy territory or as I call them Get the rebase and the buck by flying mission then rebase on your way out. Like a US or Britain bomber that could fly from London on a strategic mission deep in Italy or Yougoslavia then land in Italy or Middle-East to be ready to help there next turn. Sure you can do the same with a standard rebase, but it is funnier this way ;)

Could also help when the turn is close to an end and you lack the Air Activities to do a massive fighter rebase to have them fly CAP then land further away. It is a bit shorter than a rebase and will turn them back, but it doesnt take air action limit, same for interception and escort.

It is important for strategic bombing, both for offense and defense, since the same missions are likely to be flown each turn. Obviously on a mobile front the air units of both sides will have more dynamic bases. Perhaps that is the criteria - are the target hexes likely to be the same from turn to turn? If so, then you might want to retun to from whnece you came (assuming the plane is still flight-worthy).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Greywolf)

Post #: 17

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/6/2009 12:36:29 AM

Mad Russian

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Please note that after reading all these posts I realize that the version I'm playing has almost exclusively Me-109's or what I assume them to be. We never played ANYTHING in Flames past the original at version 5. My counters aren't named they are marked with a silhouette and so we just play with Fighters, Tac and Strategic bombers.

I'm sure I'll greatly appreciate all the extra information.

Anybody that has plenty of German air when they invade the Soviet Union will win easily. For the rest of us the battle will be tough.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 18

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/6/2009 6:51:15 AM

LiquidSky

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Alas, they greatly increase the number of German planes with the extra kits, so that you can, indeed have a German airforce rivaling that of the allies. However, the Russians are given artillery, which allows them to ground strike without have to worry about the German fighters interfering..

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 19

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/6/2009 9:35:41 AM

christo

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From: adelaide, australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

Alas, they greatly increase the number of German planes with the extra kits, so that you can, indeed have a German airforce rivaling that of the allies.� However, the Russians are given artillery, which allows them to ground strike without have to worry about the German fighters interfering..

This is where the great range of the allied fighters really helps. They are able to gang up on the germans and gain control of the skies. From 1942 onwards (ok maybe 1943) the western allies should never be at less than + 1 in air to air unless there are any unusual circumstances. In some of the games I play, the Axis lose more build points in planes lost than they do in strategic bombardment.

Christo

(in reply to LiquidSky)

Post #: 20

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/6/2009 9:50:36 AM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: christo

In some of the games I play, the Axis lose more build points in planes lost than they do in strategic bombardment.

Christo

That is true in most games I play.

(in reply to christo)

Post #: 21

RE: Interceptor range and Legal moves - 5/7/2009 3:17:13 AM

LiquidSky

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In our games the Axis tend to save their air for the final defense, and only fly in missions that are critical. Even when they have less then the allies, their quality advantage can make up for it. And you really cant shoot down a lot of aircraft on the +1 to -1 column. Sometimes it is better to just let the allies bomb.

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 22