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What is this? - 5/23/2002 8:47:25 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		I asked this question in the-now-HOF:ed-thread "screen names" but as I want more input on the subject, and the thread itself was inappropriate for this, I'm starting a new one :D

[IMG]http://www.dcell.com/trip2k/tanks/tnk52.jpg[/IMG]

What is this?

Parusski suggested that it's an SU-76i, but I'm not convinced. The SU-76i's were built on PzIII chassis, and with the gun built into the hull in an assault-gun fashion.

This is obviously a PzIV chassis with a turret... any other suggestions? (In my eyes the turret/gun looks American, but that's probably just me... )

Another topic: The T-34s are listed with 33 and up AP rounds. To my knowledge they carried no more than 21 rounds (+75 HE)? The F-34 gun also has pen listing for HEAT rounds. Does that include AP, since HEAT could not be used with the L-11 and F-34 guns? Please correct me if I'm wrong. :)

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- 5/23/2002 9:11:27 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Well that is clearly a MKIV chassis, but I am not ready to accept that the turret is in fact a turret. I looks fixed in position to me.

The gun mantlet though, looks russian configuration, definitely not american. The mussle brake looks like the Stug type of howitzer.

In my opinion this is someones idea of a post WW2 patch job to make a complete tank when there were parts missing.

Then again, some German tankers might have made this contraption out of desperation in the field.

The Germans fielded a great many quick fixes during the war. Guns and chassis were always being married together. There is no reason to assume this tank had any copies ever made.

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- 5/23/2002 9:19:46 PM   
Seagull

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Halifax, NS, Canada
Status: offline 		The turret looks vaguely Panther-ish to me, and the gun looks a lot like a 7.5 cm StuK40/48 (similar to a StuG40 ausf F/8).

Just my $0.02 ;)

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Post #: 3
Try this from Achtung panzer - 5/23/2002 9:27:21 PM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline 		In 1942, Krupp-Gruson designed very intersting construction of self-propelled gun (Waffentrager - weapon carrier) on Geschutzwagen IV chassis, with fully rotating turret that could be removed with the use of the crane mounted in the back of the vehicle. Turret could be removed and mounted on the wheeled cart (carried on the vehicle) and moved to a designated position. It could also be removed and placed next to the vehicle on a prepared concrete based as an armored pillbox. At the same time, the turretless vehicle could be used as ammunition carrier or recovery vehicle.

Prototype turret was armed with 105mm leFH 18/1 L/28 (light field howitzer) but for production models 105mm LeFH 43 L/28 (light field howitzer) was planned to be used. The armament was mounted in fully traversible turret unlike 10.5cm leFH 18/1(Sf) auf Geschützwagen IVb. Its 5 men crew (commander, 3 gunners and driver) was provided with armor protection that ranged from 10mm to 30mm. Prototype was fitted with 12-cylinder Maybach HL90 engine with total power of 360 horsepower but production models were suppose to have 12-cylinder Maybach HL100 engine. The vehicle was based on the chassis developed for Hummel. In 1942/43, Krupp produced only 3 prototypes (Serial Numbers 582501 - 582503) that were designated as Heuschrecke 10. This design never reached the production stage.

Similar design by Rheinmetall-Borsig (10.5cm leFH 18/40/2 auf Geschuetzwagen III/IV (Sf)) was built by Deutsche Eisenwerke in competition with Krupp's Heuschrecke 10. There were also similar projects by Skoda based on their project of T-25 medium tank and on VK1602 Leopard. Finally, it was decided that Panther chassis will be used to create Heuschrecke 15, which was also never realized.

In general, concept behind Heuschrecke 10 was to provide mobility for artillery pieces, while they could also perform the role of fixed artillery if required. Today, new German Panzerhaubitze (PzH) 2000 based on Leopard 2 is a continuation of wartime designs such as Heuschrecke 10.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4
- 5/23/2002 9:34:19 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Many many thanx, Doom! :)

You're a goldmine of information.
On closer examination, I thought it looked like a LeFH 18! (I was about to post such a suggestion just before you handed in the complete report)
The 42/43 prototype dates would also (maybe?) explain the Panther-ish silhouette of the turret.

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- 5/23/2002 9:39:35 PM   
Seagull

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Halifax, NS, Canada
Status: offline 		Don,

The truss-like structures on either side of the hull presumably bolt together to form the wheeled cart, then? Interesting...

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Post #: 6
try this. - 5/23/2002 9:44:55 PM   
Don Doom


Posts: 2446
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Lost somewhere in the upper backwoods of Michigan!
Status: offline 		.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7
- 5/24/2002 1:29:39 AM   
Seagull

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 5/7/2002
From: Halifax, NS, Canada
Status: offline 		Don,

Great photo! :)

Seagull - who feels he's learned something today ;)

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Post #: 8
- 5/26/2002 4:13:52 AM   
Dean Robb

 

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Va Beach, VA USA
Status: offline 		The question has obviously been answered...but what exactly IS the answer?

Heuschrecke 10 or 15?

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Post #: 9
- 5/27/2002 10:26:07 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I asked this question in the-now-HOF:ed-thread "screen names" but as I want more input on the subject, and the thread itself was inappropriate for this, I'm starting a new one [/QUOTE]


Looks like a tank to me....

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Post #: 10
Name - 5/28/2002 1:26:11 AM   
Panzerleader

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 4/5/2001
From: KC MO USA
Status: offline 		Wasn't this called either "Dicker Max" or Sturer Emil" or were those different? I know they were strange matings of large-caribre cannons on PzIV chassis.

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Post #: 11
Production - 5/28/2002 12:32:48 PM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline 		3 built 1943 not combat tested.

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Post #: 12
waffentrager - 5/30/2002 1:40:10 AM   
Waylander

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Pattaya, Chonburi, Thailand
Status: offline 		Yhe Picture is most definately of the 10.5cm leFH18/1L/28 auf Waffentrager GW IVb. Developed by Krupp from 1942 onwards the turret was fully rotating and could be removed fro emplacement on the ground. The chassis was developed on the basis of the Pz III/IV developed from the Hummel. Two large turret wheels were stowed on the rear of the tank, along with a gantry for lifting the turret off.

regards
Waylander

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Post #: 13
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