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Immortal leaders - 10/23/2000 1:18:00 PM

Hortlund

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Has anyone else had this problem? I just started a long campaign as German. In the first battle I noticed that a few of my unit leaders that I know were killed in the battle still remained in battle nr2 (after I had "repaired" the unit). This made me a bit puzzled so I decided to take a closer look at my leaders. And to my great surprise all of the units that were destroyed in one way or another (surrendered, dispersed or simply shot to bits) and then replaced (or fixed or whatever) somehow kept their leaders, and these leaders kept their kills and experience (they were stripped of rank though, for example "sgt Muller" became just plain "Muller" after his death). Do I need to reinstall the game or is this something that happens to all, I'm using ver 4.4? These immortal leaders must die somehow

Otherwise I'll have some really scary zombies driving around in 1945 with thousands of kills and 255 in experience. ------------------ Panzerjaeger Hortlund -=Fear is only a state of mind=-

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

Post #: 1

- 10/24/2000 4:41:00 PM

Hortlund

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What...am I the only one with this problem? Just my luck... ------------------ Panzerjaeger Hortlund -=Fear is only a state of mind=-

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 2

- 10/24/2000 6:13:00 PM

Fuerte2

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Perhaps it is not the same Muller. I believe that there is a very limited number of leader names in SPWAW.

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Post #: 3

- 10/24/2000 6:42:00 PM

Hortlund

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Nope...cant be another Muller with the same name, because this "new" Muller has the same nr of kills as the "old" Muller. ------------------ Panzerjaeger Hortlund -=Fear is only a state of mind=-

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 4

- 10/24/2000 7:13:00 PM

Mac_MatrixForum

Posts: 295
Joined: 4/11/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
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Perhaps he was not "killed" killed but only went unconscious and got back when you reformed his unit.

[replace with your favourite story] So, you're suggesting that, when a unit gets wiped out, randomize the leader name so it does not persist, right? Sounds reasonable. ------------------ Markku "Mac" Rontu "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Sheridan in B5

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
"Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

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Post #: 5

- 10/24/2000 9:16:00 PM

Crimson

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From: Finland
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I'm playing the 'Heroes of the Motherland' campaign, and the same thing has happened to me. In the first battle an SMG squad of mine got wiped out. I fixed the unit and in the next battle a leader with the same name was in charge of the squad. I'm not sure whether the leader retained his kills, also (he didn't have any). However, this new (or old) leader didn't have a rank. It doesn't affect gameplay but looks quite odd... I'm running v4.4, btw. - Juha Virtanen -

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Post #: 6

- 10/24/2000 10:30:00 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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This could indeed be a bug. On the other hand, a unit being wiped out does not necessarily mean all the members of the unit are killed. Wiped out generally means the unit has been reduced in size and capability until it is no longer functional. It is quite conceivable that a leader survive while most of the men under his command are killed or neutralized. Now the loss of rank would definitely have to be a bug. If he retains his kills, he should certainly retain his rank. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 7

- 10/24/2000 11:05:00 PM

jsaurman

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From: Alexandria, VA
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It means that due to incompetence he has been stripped of his rank! He is now a Private E-1 and in the doghouse! JIM

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Post #: 8

- 10/25/2000 5:58:00 AM

El Che

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Joined: 10/18/2000
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Hello Panzer Jager H! Sorry I post this reply out of the topic, but... are you still trying to make this campaign in the east where you have tried to simulate the effect of frozen temperatures on the German army? I think that I had an idea that could work to simulate this. The idea comes to me playing Wittmans Gamble scenario. As you could see, at the begin of this scenario the British troops are all routed, pinned or retracting. So I think that have to be possible to design the scenario in such terms that the troops starts with a lot of suppression. I don’t know how, but you could take a look to the manual or ask to others in the forum. :; I think that (put the troops pinned trough suppression) in that way you could simulate the effect of the russian winter on the German soldiers. I think that it’s realistic in some way... one can say that the Russian winter could have the effect of pinned the Germans. Don’t you think? By the way... I had experienced the same problem about immortal units playing “Heroes...” and “preparing the way”. A unit who is killed and appears in the next battle, with other name, without his kills... but with the same experience and moral. ------------------ No Pasar�n!!

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Post #: 9

- 10/25/2000 1:50:00 PM

Hortlund

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Yes, I'm still working on the Das Reich Campaign, and the russian winter is getting to be a real headache. It seems that the only possible way of simulating the poor weather and lack of supplies and ammo in a campaign is to deny the player any support, replacement or reinforcement points. I dont think its possible (at least I dont have a clue on how to do it) to make player owned units in a campaign start supressed. One way around this is perhaps to use aux units and have the player units enter the map as fresh reinforcements or something, but it misses the point. Steve ------------------ Panzerjaeger Hortlund -=Fear is only a state of mind=-

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 10

- 10/25/2000 8:26:00 PM

El Che

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One way around this is perhaps to use aux units and have the player units enter the map as fresh reinforcements or something, but it misses the point. Steve [/B][/QUOTE] yes, I was thinking in this way when I posted the e-mail. well... good luck with this proyect.

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Hasta la victoria siempre!

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Post #: 11

- 10/25/2000 10:46:00 PM

yegor21

Posts: 64
Joined: 7/5/2000
From: Hampden,Ma,USA
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I have the same problem with the leader names and skills are there but thyer ranks are gone.Its in every campaing i played so far.I have posted this before but had no replies.Hope matrix can fix this.

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Post #: 12

- 10/26/2000 1:25:00 AM

Wild Bill

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One way to suppress units prior to scenario play is to buy some artillery for the other side. Save Start scenario. Pound them for two turns. Save Change save file to scenario file. Open it in the editor. Remove the artillery if you wish. Then save again. Now when the scenario starts, they should still have some suppression. I do this often when I want a smokey or "foggy" battlefield. You'll see this in the Utah to the Rhine campaign being used to create a fog filled valley. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Post #: 13

- 10/26/2000 11:49:00 AM

warhead

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regarding those of you with recurring leaders...did you start these campaigns earlier than 4.X or so? I recall that I had a campaign I started at about 2.X. I continued to play it through the 3.X updates...when I noticed none of my leaders could be killed, so i quit that cpn. I've started a new campaign with 4.X and notice no leader problems after one game. I lost about 3 leaders,then the next in line within the platoon became the new XO leader while an entirely new leader replaced the dead one. You see i lost a couple of XO(i.e. Do,Jo) "platoon leaders", when I repaired and replaced I saw that now the d1 and j1 leaders were now the new Do and Jo leaders while the D1 and J1 leaders had new guys, even though the do and jo leaders were the ones actually kia.

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Post #: 14

- 10/26/2000 12:31:00 PM

Hortlund

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Nope, I started the cpn in ver 4.4. Those damn immortal leaders sure takes alot of the fun out of my campaign. ------------------ Panzerjaeger Hortlund -=Fear is only a state of mind=-

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 15

- 10/26/2000 4:13:00 PM

Fredde

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I have the same problem.. starting to look funny in the 10th scenario of the campaign when i have a whole bunch of them with ranks all gone. Perhaps they discovered that nco's and officers are primary targets for the enemy and threw away all signs.

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Post #: 16

- 10/26/2000 7:58:00 PM

Billy Yank

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From: Northern Virginia, USA
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I usually use Chlanda's editor to promote all the "civilians" to Corporals before each battle. I didn't realize these were the "risen dead" until my A0 was killed (I renamed him after myself). The next battle, there I was as a civilian commanding the A1 unit. ------------------ Billy Yank I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.

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Billy Yank
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield

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Post #: 17

- 10/27/2000 12:26:00 AM

Hortlund

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Ok, I did a little checking. I purchased 3 AC's (Sdkfz 222) B0, B1, and B2. 3 recon teams C0, C1, and C2 as my core units and sent them to battle against the brits in 1941. I also noted all the statistics of each leader to be able to follow their careers. Needless to say it was a slaughter, in the first battle all units were destroyed. B2 (sgt Achtzehn)was killed by a brit tank with no survivors. B0 (1st Lt Wirth) and B1 (sgt Lang)were hit by tank fire, and in both cases one man managed to escape from the burning wreck. Both these crews were killed by MG fire though. The infantry units met similar fates. C0 (1st Lt Muller)and C2 (sgt Zimmerman)were killed (not "survivors disperse") by gunfire. C1 (sgt Vebber) had another fate, one man was killed by gunfire, and the remaining soldier (Vebber himself?) surrenderd...coward.. So, out of these 6 units all 6 leaders should be dead...right? Before the next battle i fixed all units, so my force was as good as new for the next fight. When I did my setup some really weird things had happened. In the AC section (B0, B1, and B2) the following had happened. B0's leader, 1Lt Wirth was gone, replaced by 2Lt Klein. B1's leader, Lang was also gone, replaced by the civilian Wirth (yes...the exact same Wirth who was killed in the previous battle while commanding B0). B2's leader was now the civilian Achtzehn (exact same guy as before, just stripped of rank) In the recon unit things were even weirder. C0's new leader was Cpt Vebber! (C1's old commander, the exact same guy who surrendered in the last battle) Apparently the brits let him go, and upon his return to the German forces he was promoted to captain. C1's new leader was Cpt Muller (yes..the old 1st Lt previously in command of C0) C2's leader was still Zimmermann (just lost his stripes, he was a civilian now). I sent these brave men to their deaths again. And again, they all died in one way or another. B0 -new leader, 2nd Lt Junger B1 -same leader, still a civilian B2 -same leader, still a civilian C0 -same leader, now stripped of rank C1 -same leader, still a civilian C2 -same leader, still a civilian So, I hope you guys can fix this problem somehow, cuz in my opinion it takes alot of the fun out from playing a campaign (although it was kinda funny to follow the adventures of Cpt Vebber). Steve ------------------ Panzerjaeger Hortlund -=Fear is only a state of mind=-

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 18

- 10/27/2000 12:54:00 PM

Hortlund

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I have played two more battles in my campaign. All the leaders are still there, they have gained experience, and (in one case) a kill. They all die in action in one way or another, only to return and fight again in the next battle. Is this problem something that can be fixed?

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 19

- 10/28/2000 1:29:00 AM

Gallo Rojo

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From: Argentina
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quote:

Originally posted by Panzerjaeger Hortlund: I have played two more battles in my campaign. All the leaders are still there, they have gained experience, and (in one case) a kill. They all die in action in one way or another, only to return and fight again in the next battle. Is this problem something that can be fixed?

I had the same problem about immortal leaders. I make this as “home made solution” until the bug be fixed. When one of my units is killed I “change” it into another weapon and after I change it again into the original weapon during the fix and upgrade step. Example: if it’s a Sherman, first I change it to a Greyhound and then into a Sherman again. In that way the unit loose some experience, and I can simulate that is a new guy. Of course is a problem when you have few battle points. But it works.

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Post #: 20

- 11/7/2000 4:07:00 AM

Billy Yank

Posts: 151
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OK, here's a new data point from a campaign I'm playing. I've got a mech infantry platoon, formation "G". G0 is led by 2Lt Edwards (0 kills). Unit G6 is a half track led by Sgt Peterson (3 kills). After a nasty artillery barrage (how did the Italians get a battleship into the middle of the desert anyway?), the G0 and G1 units were destroyed. The next Sgt on the list was Sgt Peterson, so unit G6 is now the command unit, with the little parenthesis around the + sign. So the battle ends, I fix all, upgrade a few units (but none in "G" platoon). Then go on to deploy for the next battle. I take a look at "G" and I find that brave Sgt Peterson has been promoted to 2Lt and is now the leader of the G0 Armored Infantry Squad. The problem? G6 is still the official command unit of the platoon and it's led by civilian Edwards. ------------------ Billy Yank I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.

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Billy Yank
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield

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Post #: 21

- 11/7/2000 6:50:00 AM

molset

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From: Sweden
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Greeting gentlemen Having browsed through this thread on the immortal leaders its obvious that this must be a bug. In my last battle I unfortunately lost the AO sqad a.k.a myself. I proceed and get the replacment. I get myself again albeit with reduced rank from col to a lt. I retained my 2 kills. Weird, there is more. In the same battle I also lost my ace killer (12 kills,including a jagdpanther, not bad for a M8 recon vehicle (just had to brag)), a certain lt Dunnigan. His replacement in the NO unit slot duly arrives with a different name and no kills. Since his whole recon section got whiped out I checked if lt Richards in unit N1 had also got his proper replacement. Richads was gone for shure but his replacemnt was civilian Dunningan with 12 kills. Strange. Definately. Less strange but still a Zombie case for me was when 2lt. Richards (a very competent bazoka man)returned after a heroic but still a definate death a battle or two before. He has now become a captain with a impressive 10 kill toll (including 1 jagdpanther (in his second life) and 1 Tiger(in his first life). However glad I am to have me and my boys back, its a bland feeling. They are after all dead, done and deserve a rest. This takes the sting out of a campaign, and dilutes the bragging. After all, the dead guys are a bit less credible when they enter the honorary rostrum of the matrix order when they have had multiple chances on life. Regards Molset "Jakki er ekki frakki nema sidur se"

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Post #: 22

- 11/13/2000 6:40:00 PM

Hortlund

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I just wanted to ask if there are any updates on this bug? Can it be fixed? Steve

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 23

- 11/14/2000 3:16:00 AM

Billy Yank

Posts: 151
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From: Northern Virginia, USA
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Now here's something wierd and I don't know if it's related or not. In my campaign, I wanted to get a look at the enemy forces after a battle (to help write the AAR). I opened the "turn 0" save with Chlanda's editor and started looking down the list. I noticed that the ranks in the enemy forces are seriously messed up. There are platoons in there led by a Sergeant with two subordinate leaders with no rank and another of his subordinates led by a Major! This pattern appears throughout the list. I'd estimate about 50% of the formations have "rankless" leaders and/or have high ranking officers taking orders from enlisted men. This happened in 4 battles in a US long campaign. The enemy were French, Italian and German. ------------------ Billy Yank I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.

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Billy Yank
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield

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Post #: 24

- 11/14/2000 10:00:00 PM

john g

Posts: 984
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From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by molset: Greeting gentlemen Having browsed through this thread on the immortal leaders its obvious that this must be a bug. In my last battle I unfortunately lost the AO sqad a.k.a myself. I proceed and get the replacment. I get myself again albeit with reduced rank from col to a lt. I retained my 2 kills. Weird, there is more. In the same battle I also lost my ace killer (12 kills,including a jagdpanther, not bad for a M8 recon vehicle (just had to brag)), a certain lt Dunnigan. His replacement in the NO unit slot duly arrives with a different name and no kills. Since his whole recon section got whiped out I checked if lt Richards in unit N1 had also got his proper replacement. Richads was gone for shure but his replacemnt was civilian Dunningan with 12 kills. Strange. Definately. Less strange but still a Zombie case for me was when 2lt. Richards (a very competent bazoka man)returned after a heroic but still a definate death a battle or two before. He has now become a captain with a impressive 10 kill toll (including 1 jagdpanther (in his second life) and 1 Tiger(in his first life). However glad I am to have me and my boys back, its a bland feeling. They are after all dead, done and deserve a rest. This takes the sting out of a campaign, and dilutes the bragging. After all, the dead guys are a bit less credible when they enter the honorary rostrum of the matrix order when they have had multiple chances on life. Regards Molset "Jakki er ekki frakki nema sidur se"

Do the kills stay with the leader or the unit? I know when I looked at my units in my wwii campaign under v2.3 and v4.0-4.2 the kills would go away when the unit was wiped out. Though that seldom happened (Top gun was a unit that started in PII and ended in PVIb with 51 kills), as far as the question raised about one unit being the ?0 and another in the platoon being the () unit, there are different times that a leader takes effect, it could be that sometimes the platoon ?0 is checked and other times the temp leader with the (). As an associated question, how many people add a squad to the battalion A0 and the company ?0 units? I did this late in my campaingn and though the A0 never got killed (and never got any kills) it did have the other unit there to take over if needed. thanks, John. [This message has been edited by john g (edited November 14, 2000).]

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Post #: 25

- 11/14/2000 10:19:00 PM

Billy Yank

Posts: 151
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quote:

Originally posted by john g: Do the kills stay with the leader or the unit? I know when I looked at my units in my wwii campaign under v2.3 and v4.0-4.2 the kills would go away when the unit was wiped out. Though that seldom happened (Top gun was a unit that started in PII and ended in PVIb with 51 kills), as far as the question raised about one unit being the ?0 and another in the platoon being the () unit, there are different times that a leader takes effect, it could be that sometimes the platoon ?0 is checked and other times the temp leader with the (). As an associated question, how many people add a squad to the battalion A0 and the company ?0 units? I did this late in my campaingn and though the A0 never got killed (and never got any kills) it did have the other unit there to take over if needed. thanks, John.

The kills most definately stay with the leader. In the case I cited above, the Sergeant from unit G6 was promoted to Lieutenant and moved to the G0 unit along with his 3 kills. I always give my Battalion and Company CO's an executive officer. (See my old thread titled "Fun with Chlanda's Editor".) ------------------ Billy Yank I don't define "my own" the way you want me to.

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Billy Yank
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield

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Post #: 26

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Immortal leaders