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Attacking Russia, December '41

 
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Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 8:20:49 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I've been playing around a bit, and never even bothered looking "at" Russia. Why does Japan need more enemies I say?

But I have a bug up my butt, and am thinking, "if I can knock out Russia fairly early in the war, I can free up 8k AV to defend my permiter, when all that Manchuko Garrison does normally is babysit a border".

I look at some nice resourse/oil centers and they look juicy to me. 8k AV looks juicy to me. Knocking out the bear in short order, before the Red Horde comes alive, seems to be the "best way" to do it.

So I'm thinking of attacking Russia in December, '41 and going right after it with the Manchuko Garrison and a couple of extra divisions in China.

While I am thinking it needs to be knocked out early, that does not necessairly mean "quickly", in that my initial strategy isn't to ko russia to the detriment of every other theater. Yeah I will probably strip 3-4-5 divisions from China to do this, but not from any other theater. I'm more interested in knocking it out "before they build up with the troops (mostly) in Manchuko" rather than "knocking it out as fast as possible to the detriment of every other theater". I"ll surround and starve that which can defend extremely well (i.e. the border forts), attack the weaker forces, and keep driving.

Question, if I take *all* of the Russian cities, does this knock Russia out of the war, and they get no reinforcements, or do russian reinforcements come in at some other place (karachi, San Fran, etc.) if no cities are russian held?

But I don't know... anyone have tips/hints/strategies/advice for a December, '41 attack on Soviet Far East?


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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 8:37:33 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
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Status: offline 		There's some farily good anti suicide drugs on the market; Lexapro, Zoloft, even Paxil works in many non-clinical situations.

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 9:29:40 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline 		I have no in-game advice to add. From a big picture perspective, it seems like a bad idea. You are already at war with the world's most populous country, the world's greatest industrial power and the world's largest empire. Are you thinking it is a good idea to add to the list (3.5 years before you have to) a country that will soon field armored forces the like of which you can't imagine?

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Post #: 3
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 9:41:14 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		Go for it! 

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Post #: 4
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 9:42:37 PM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
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Status: offline 		AI or PBEM game?

Huge difference.

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 10:01:56 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

I have no in-game advice to add. From a big picture perspective, it seems like a bad idea. You are already at war with the world's most populous country, the world's greatest industrial power and the world's largest empire. Are you thinking it is a good idea to add to the list (3.5 years before you have to) a country that will soon field armored forces the like of which you can't imagine?


Depends on if those armor forces can reach the field of battle before I take all the Soviet Cities, and if those armor forces can enter the WITP map after all Soviet cities are taken.

If I can conquer all the cities, and those forces never come into play after that, then freeing up 8k AV to defend my perimeter (and getting some nice production facilities) seems like a damn fine idea to me!



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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 10:08:14 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
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From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

There's some farily good anti suicide drugs on the market; Lexapro, Zoloft, even Paxil works in many non-clinical situations.



Remember John ...this is the Stock forum...not the AE forum.

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 10:34:44 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Depends on if those armor forces can reach the field of battle before I take all the Soviet Cities, and if those armor forces can enter the WITP map after all Soviet cities are taken.

If I can conquer all the cities, and those forces never come into play after that, then freeing up 8k AV to defend my perimeter (and getting some nice production facilities) seems like a damn fine idea to me!




Doesn't that strike you as a little gamey? The soviets are going to come eventually. You can't really hurt their war-making potential. The difference as I see it is the sledgehammer falls in late 43 instead of mid 45.

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Post #: 8
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 10:42:32 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		Gamey, only if I don't use my imagination and justify it as some sort of "well Stalin isn't going to send troops to the Far East until Germany is defeated, so he's just going to let the nips have the Far East and use the Siberian tundra as his defense against them" reasoning, or some other fantasy.

Yeah, working on that, so the Sov's lost all their far east cities.  They don't get any more reinforcements appearing in Karachi, San Fran, etc., because Stalin decided the hun was more dangerous and the Far East is already a lost cause, for "now".

For after all, this game IS a fantasy game, and if attacking Russia wasn't an option, than the Japs would not be allowed to attack Russia.

Do you know if the Russian forces come into play at some other base, if all the Russian cities are conquered?  Does anyone?

Does anyone have any tips for a surprise attack on not only PH, but the soviet Far east too?

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 10:47:52 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
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quote:

If I can conquer all the cities, and those forces never come into play after that, then freeing up 8k AV to defend my perimeter (and getting some nice production facilities) seems like a damn fine idea to me!


I'll gladly volunteer to play you as the Allies in a non-stock mod of your choice (I have a slight modification of Big B's mod that we could use - see Spooky's website) . Just PM me and we will get started.


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Post #: 10
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/6/2009 10:55:29 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Well, as far as PBEM goes, stock is not set up with a realistic Soviet defense, so it would be gamey unless your opponent agrees to it.

If it's a AI game, go for it.

This does bring up an interesting question, though. If the Japanese had attacked the Soviets early (12/41 - 1/42), would that have don in Joe Stalin politically?

My opinion is no, only because of Stalingrad. If Japan attacked in 10/41, maybe a totally different story.

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 12:04:36 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

If the Japanese had attacked the Soviets early (12/41 - 1/42), would that have don in Joe Stalin politically?


Soviets had kicked the crap out of the Japanese Army in 1940 at Kalkhin Gol (or however you spell it). Attacking the Soviets was the LAST thing they wanted to do. That's why they signed separate non-agression pacts with USSR, much to the ire of Mr. Adolf.

It has been argued by many scholars, that the it was their resounding defeat in 1940 that convinced Japan to not mess with the USSR, and in fact turn south towards the weaker colonial powers.

-F-

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 3:25:42 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline 		I think that the problem with a simple answer to your question is that if you are just playing the AI it is possible; but imo ( I have goofed around with this ) the AI just doesn't handle the Soviets well. Personally I would really like to play a Japanese player that lets me have access to all of the Soviet forces right at the beginning of the game. I am not that skilled in WiTP as others, but it doesn't seem like the potential benefit of attaking Russia is worth it for the Japanese.

I have not noticed any of the Japanese fan boys saying that they think their best chance of achieving auto victory  is when they voluntarily attack Russia on December 7th also.

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Post #: 13
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 3:29:19 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

quote:

If the Japanese had attacked the Soviets early (12/41 - 1/42), would that have don in Joe Stalin politically?


Soviets had kicked the crap out of the Japanese Army in 1940 at Kalkhin Gol (or however you spell it). Attacking the Soviets was the LAST thing they wanted to do. That's why they signed separate non-agression pacts with USSR, much to the ire of Mr. Adolf.

It has been argued by many scholars, that the it was their resounding defeat in 1940 that convinced Japan to not mess with the USSR, and in fact turn south towards the weaker colonial powers.

-F-



You are right of course. The last thing Japan wanted was an active Russia. I have always thought it a bit odd that Japan looked the other way as Russians would ferry items from the USA to the Soviet Union.

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 7:28:57 AM   
Flying Tiger

 

Posts: 496
Joined: 3/11/2008
From: ummmm... i HATE that question!
Status: offline 		Go for it Ace, And tell us how it all plays out....

It is only a game after all (albeit one that can suck up years of your life!!).

And from my understanding (and i have not actually tried it) i do NOT think the Russian forces will show up elsewhere. If you take all their cities, you are safe from the Russian horde.

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Post #: 15
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 9:21:26 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

If you take all their cities, you are safe from the Russian horde.

rightfully!
Stalin offered peace to germany via bulgaria two times. Once shortly after Operation Barbarossa began, the second time when the Wehrmacht showed up before Moscow. Both offers included vast amounts of land to be ceded to Germany.
If Japan had attacked in autum/winter 41, they'd also have recieved such an offer, for sure! Anyone in Russia knew that Japan isn't half as dangerous as Germany but still, giving Kamchatka, Sachalin and some parts of Siberia is better than haveing an activ front in the east as well!

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Post #: 16
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 10:55:41 AM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Well in reality what the Japs could capture??? or more how far could they go using one railroad??? Sure they could capture Vladivostock , Kamchatka ans such but moving into Siberia was dumb... there was nothing to be captured there Ohhh and one more thing attacking into Sibieria in winter if some one would do it he should get a darwin prize

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 1:48:27 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:

If you take all their cities, you are safe from the Russian horde.

rightfully!
Stalin offered peace to germany via bulgaria two times. Once shortly after Operation Barbarossa began, the second time when the Wehrmacht showed up before Moscow. Both offers included vast amounts of land to be ceded to Germany.
If Japan had attacked in autum/winter 41, they'd also have recieved such an offer, for sure! Anyone in Russia knew that Japan isn't half as dangerous as Germany but still, giving Kamchatka, Sachalin and some parts of Siberia is better than haveing an activ front in the east as well!


That is interesting, and I had not realized it.

When you look at it this way, conquering all the Soviet cities where reinforcements can show up quickly, and then effectively knocking Soviets out of the war is not really that gamey after all, eh?

I tend to really prefer 'what if' scenarios, and this one in particular seems to be a fascinating question.

But could it really be done even against the AI? I don't know the starting forces for Japan, and USSR that well, nor do I have an intuition for what it takes for the Japanese to achieve a minimum of their objectives in DEI and Malaya/SE Asia (meaning, enough to get all the key resource hexes).

Assuming playing Japan against the allied AI on Very Hard (and perhaps with some self-rules to give the AI a fighting chance) would it really be possible to divide up Japans forces enough to accomplish a 'blitzkrieg in far eastern USSR?

Against an allied human opponent would obviously be something totally different . . .

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 1:53:11 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		against the AI, Japan can conquer the whole map... every single base, you just have to have some experience and the mood to do it...

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 2:05:00 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

against the AI, Japan can conquer the whole map... every single base, you just have to have some experience and the mood to do it...


THAT is a sad statement about the AI in WiTP

ADDIT: but I wonder if it is so easy if/when you restrict yourself with some or all of the 'self-rules' mentioned in the

Helping the AI to Challenge Me thread?

I'm up to about late Jan in a game against the Jap AI using most or all the self-rules in this thread and, while he is certainly not stunning me with his performance, he is doing much better than in previous matches where I did not self-restrict with such rules.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 5/7/2009 2:07:41 PM >

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The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 2:32:17 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

AI or PBEM game?

Huge difference.


That is the key point. Against the AI its do-able. In a PBEM I would strongly advise against it.

Just to prove the point, I am currently in a AI game where I have invaded Russia. You really want to know where the best early war allied fighters are? They're sitting on the airfields at Vladivostok. Not only are they holding their own, they are ripping the JAAF fighters to shreds and have air parity with the Zero's.

My advice...only invade Russia in the AI. Forget about it in a PBEM.

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 3:03:39 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

against the AI, Japan can conquer the whole map... every single base, you just have to have some experience and the mood to do it...


THAT is a sad statement about the AI in WiTP

ADDIT: but I wonder if it is so easy if/when you restrict yourself with some or all of the 'self-rules' mentioned in the

Helping the AI to Challenge Me thread?

I'm up to about late Jan in a game against the Jap AI using most or all the self-rules in this thread and, while he is certainly not stunning me with his performance, he is doing much better than in previous matches where I did not self-restrict with such rules.



It is actually a bit more fun and challenging playing against the Allied AI if you do in fact invade, and also impose other rules.


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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 4:11:29 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
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From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

against the AI, Japan can conquer the whole map... every single base, you just have to have some experience and the mood to do it...


Including the US West Coast? That is the only area I have NEVER heard of anyone taking.

If someone did, that's amazing, even against the AI. Taking the rest of the Pacific would cause US units to pool at San Fran, so that the armies would be huge.

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 4:56:10 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 6:55:13 PM   
Hornblower


Posts: 1361
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From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
Status: offline 		Let a sleeping dog lie...  Leave'em alone

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Post #: 25
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 7:34:22 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The Banana almost did.....




The Banana ?


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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 7:41:48 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		a super evil genius who hates all carnivores.





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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 9:00:09 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

a super evil genius who hates all carnivores.






Wouldn't it be vegetarians that he hates?

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Post #: 28
RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 9:01:33 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		did i mention that he's a super evil genius?

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RE: Attacking Russia, December '41 - 5/7/2009 9:01:48 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		So in essence, no one here has tried a Soviet Far East Dec 41 invasion...

Looking at the forces available to the Commies, I wonder why.

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Post #: 30
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