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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/2/2009 3:42:59 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Turn 161. 1-3-43, progress in the Southern Offensive. 1st Panzer Army is moving south, generally rolling down the Soviet flank. Elmer has thrown up a screen of tank brigades but I can squeeze thru them fairly easy.

As the Panzer Division refits started a few turns ago, I noticed that my new units are full up with Panthers and IVh's. I think the Panthers did start production in January '43, but they weren't around in any great numbers unitl the summer, and the IVh's production started in 3-43. It's really difficult to get any proper mix of stuff in the equipment slots, but I took it upon myself to redo all these units so that they mostly use the IVf2's(aka g's) and IIIj's until the summer of '43. Then the refits occur and the Panthers and IVh's are in.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/2/2009 3:49:07 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		My ad hoc SS Panzer Korps in action. Wiking is the only one of the big four available, as LAH, DAS and TK must be off in France on holiday, or something. But I still have the RF Brigades, a cavalry division called Florian Geyer, 6 and 7 SS Mtn Divisions, and then the SS Polizei mopping up the rear area.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/2/2009 3:58:11 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		2nd Panzer Army has closed up on the Don River at Voronezh and Lipetsk. That's about as far east as I want to go right now, it's more important to try to keep getting to the south. It doesn't look like Elmer has much in that direction (I guess I'm about 100-200 miles in his rear), and yes, my Brandenburgers are galavanting across the countryside. I was worried that situations like this would be tripping objectives and causing whole formations to chase after the ants, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I think Elmer is maybe able to judge his threat priorities.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/2/2009 4:04:11 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		3rd and 4th Panzer Armies are needed to hold this part of the line until I can get some Infantry Divisions shifted in from their positions off to the west. It doesn't take the Soviets long to put a line back together.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/2/2009 4:11:06 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

You can't airdrop the pz division recon units behind the soviet lines and then have them motorised move to Japan!

Are you aware that three's a 10 hex "house rule" for Airdrops?  No more than 10 hexes from the nearest axis unit - this plus the limits of foot movement make the Brandenburgers work well - and I see no reason why all the units can't be dropped in a singel turn either.

from your comments are you actually playing the game?  If not then I suggest you need to before you can make judgements like this.

And I'll repreat - there's no need to change the Brandenburgers because OTHER units are a problem



Well, I've spent some time thinking about it and I think that you and sPzAbt653 are correct. I also think that I'm talking about issues that are distracting from the real #1 priority of making Elmer perform the best he can. Everything else is secondary to improving Elmer.


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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/2/2009 4:16:10 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Still turn 161, 1-3-43. Off to the west edge of the Soviet line, Elmer has stopped attacking me and moved some of his units back to where the 1st and 2nd Panzer Armies are outflanking him. I guess a human Soviet player might lose nerve and withdraw to the east, maybe as far as the Don. But Elmer tends to follow Uncle Joe's guidelines. Actually I don't think either one of us is in a dangerous situation yet. He can afford to waste units while making me slowly conquer a huge area, while he is building strength in the Moscow area (he's also attacking me pretty heavily in the Cheropevets area farther north). For me, if I get overextended while not being able to move those infantry divisions from the west to help hold in the east, I'll be in a pickle barrel.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/2/2009 9:32:01 PM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Turn 161. 1-3-43, progress in the Southern Offensive. 1st Panzer Army is moving south, generally rolling down the Soviet flank. Elmer has thrown up a screen of tank brigades but I can squeeze thru them fairly easy.

As the Panzer Division refits started a few turns ago, I noticed that my new units are full up with Panthers and IVh's. I think the Panthers did start production in January '43, but they weren't around in any great numbers unitl the summer, and the IVh's production started in 3-43. It's really difficult to get any proper mix of stuff in the equipment slots, but I took it upon myself to redo all these units so that they mostly use the IVf2's(aka g's) and IIIj's until the summer of '43. Then the refits occur and the Panthers and IVh's are in.



By summer there were about 400 Panthers produced, but only of the very break down prone D version.

As an idea for phasing out old equipment, one can bring in empty static units with lots of open slots and high replacement priority. Over time they tend to suck up a lot. One just has to look out that they don't become too big, since the strength numbers might start becoming weird.

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Post #: 337
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/3/2009 1:19:45 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		These News Summary boxes usually pop up automatically at the beginning of a turn, but since around turn 115 they haven't. I can still click the Recent News Button to get them to pop up, but I wondered if anybody else has noticed this. Or maybe Elmer has sabotaged my 'auto-news' feature.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/3/2009 1:37:19 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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quote:

By summer there were about 400 Panthers produced, but only of the very break down prone D version.


Is there a 'break down prone' flag in the bio-ed? That would be a nice way of increasing Axis truck break downs.

On the old equipment/new equipment changeovers, it's just an issue of juggling the important first line with everything else that is going on. It's more accurate to have several changeovers thru out the scenario, but I think each one that is added makes the game more time consuming, as you have to plan your rotation of units out of the front. If one time works well enough, I'd be happy with that, I think.

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Post #: 339
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/3/2009 5:59:33 PM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

By summer there were about 400 Panthers produced, but only of the very break down prone D version.


Is there a 'break down prone' flag in the bio-ed? That would be a nice way of increasing Axis truck break downs.

On the old equipment/new equipment changeovers, it's just an issue of juggling the important first line with everything else that is going on. It's more accurate to have several changeovers thru out the scenario, but I think each one that is added makes the game more time consuming, as you have to plan your rotation of units out of the front. If one time works well enough, I'd be happy with that, I think.


Why is the first line so important?

I've never worked with bioed so I don't know, however I seriously doubt it, since the practical effect isn't modeled in the TOAW combat system AFAIK. In practice tank losses in combat were disproportionately high IF one didn't hold the battleground long enough to recover the vehicles. In these cases even minor damage would lead to total losses. Otherwise even reatively heavily damaged vehicles could often be put back into service at some point. The problem with the early Panthers was the combination of unreliability and heavy weight. The first meant there were a lot of mobility kills, the second that recovering was very difficult due to a lack of strong enough recovery vehicles. Thus if left in a contested area they were often total write offs and had to be destroyed by their crew. Most of the Panthers at Kursk were lost this way. In general this phenomena explains a major chunk of the vehicle losses of the Soviets in the first half and of the Germans in the second half of the war.

However possesion of the contested hex isn't taken into account when computing losses for active defender equipment, thus there is no way to model this.

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/3/2009 8:31:32 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

Why is the first line so important?


As the first line equipment in a unit determines whether it reconstitutes or not. There must be 66% of its' assigned first line available. When you are designing units that come and go based on production dates, and setting up replacements, you have to keep it in mind.

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Post #: 341
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/14/2009 7:55:12 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Turn 164, 1-13-43. After sealing the last breach in my lines around Moscow, Elmer prompty created another. I got the newly arrived 503rd Heavy Panzer Detachment in the line, and he went right around it. I've also redirected some supplies from the southern offensive to this area to help out.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/14/2009 7:59:25 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		In the south, still a long way from Rostov. These scattered Soviet units should be cleared out this turn, releasing a lot of units for other things.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/14/2009 8:21:31 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		A new file will be available soon, this one has some big changes. First, Rick made a new terrain type called 'dense forest/wilderness'. This terrain prevents motorised movement, is difficult and costly for foot troops to move thru, and restricts supply. It shows up in this screen shot as a deep, dark green. This terrain comes in real handy in the northern areas of the map. Something like this has really been needed, and I appreciate Rick putting in the time and effort in designing it.

Next, the cease-fires are gone, replaced with negative shock. The cease-fires created a situation in this scenario where the PO was handicapped, and the human could take full advantage. So even though I'm no fan of negative shock, it's a good change for this situation.

Also, a glich in replacements was discovered whereby the Soviet forces in the south weren't getting their share. Several of you noticed that once the Axis advanced beyond Kiev and Dnepro., there wasn't much resistance, and that was why. Some adjustments have been made that will alleviate that situation.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/14/2009 2:29:02 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


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From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

A new file will be available soon, this one has some big changes. First, Rick made a new terrain type called 'dense forest/wilderness'. This terrain prevents motorised movement, is difficult and costly for foot troops to move thru, and restricts supply. It shows up in this screen shot as a deep, dark green. This terrain comes in real handy in the northern areas of the map. Something like this has really been needed, and I appreciate Rick putting in the time and effort in designing it.


Hello SPzAbt653

Do you mean with new file the next patch/update.

If not, how can you change the attributes of a terain type?



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Post #: 345
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/14/2009 5:42:24 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

Do you mean with new file the next patch/update.


No, not the patch. Mr. Fulkerson has a download site where it will be posted.

quote:

how can you change the attributes of a terain type?


I didn't do it, but my understanding is that the 'dense woods/wilderness' is a combination of 'dunes' and 'contaminated', with the terrain tiles modified.

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Post #: 346
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/24/2009 4:51:11 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		High everybody.  I've been deployed to real life for a while and it took me about 30 minutes to catch up on reading all these posts.  Thanks for the info, everyone who posted.  I'm still interested in how D21 plays and whether or not we can tweak the rough spots.  I'm still here to help anyway I can.

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Post #: 347
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/24/2009 6:57:47 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Thanks Mr. Fulkerson. We decided to make a few formation changes, should be done the next couple days. I'll send the new file to you soon.

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Post #: 348
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/28/2009 11:22:42 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Okie dokie everybody.  I've posted the newest version of Directive 21 on the MediaFire File hosting Service and you can find it here:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?3dyy5tjrg1y

As I understand it there's been a lot of changes to D21 and you may want to start over with the newest version.
I can't wait to get started myself.  Let us know how your game goes, okay?

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Post #: 349
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 3/29/2009 4:30:32 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for putting it up there Larry..

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 4/12/2009 1:49:09 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Looking into arranging the Rumanian force into corp formations, as opposed to the three Armies they are currently in. Here's what it might look like:

Antonescu = 11inf, 13inf (plus all the garrison units)
II Corps = 9inf, 10inf, 7cav bde
3rd Army = 1cav, 9cav, 3mtn
IV Corps = 6inf, 7inf
Mtn Corps = 1mtn, 2mtn, 4mtn, 18inf
Cav Corps = 5cav, 8cav, 6cav
VI Corps = 2inf, 4inf, 20inf
VII Corps = 8cav, 10inf, 19inf
4th Army = 1inf, 14inf
III Corps = Gds, 15inf, 35res, 3inf
V Corps = Frntr, 21inf
XI Corps = 1 frt, 2 frt, 1sec, 2sec, 3sec
I Corps = 5inf, 8inf

The Army formations also include the artillery, engineer and bridging units. If anyone has any different suggestions ...

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 4/12/2009 1:51:15 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		The Corp HQ's are currently just copies of the Army HQ's. If anybody has suggestions for what equipment they should be changed to, please let us know. Here's the current set up:




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 4/12/2009 2:20:33 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
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From: niflheim
Status: offline 		Have you looked here: http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/031_rumania/41-06/corps_inf_41.html ?

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Post #: 353
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 4/12/2009 3:39:23 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Yes, thanks Stefan. I was going to use that if no one else came up with anything. So maybe they would look like this:




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 4/12/2009 6:07:22 AM   
Scout_Pilot

 

Posts: 20
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Status: offline 		Have you looked at this site?

http://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/



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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 4/12/2009 8:47:36 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
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From: niflheim
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Yes, thanks Stefan. I was going to use that if no one else came up with anything. So maybe they would look like this:





Wow. Now they would be more powerfull than the German Korps HQs..

Is there no way to outsource the engineers, cavalry and the heavy MGs to the divisions?

EDIT: There already are Eng Regts in the OOB which even indicate its component battalions in the unit name - maybe these are the Bns that were subordinated to the Corps HQs.

< Message edited by Telumar -- 4/12/2009 8:57:32 AM >

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Post #: 356
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 4/12/2009 10:01:04 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Thanks David, I had looked at the worldwar2.ro site, but I don't think there is info specific to the corp HQ organisation.

Dropping the engineer and ferry teams looks like a good idea. We don't have any separate cav or mg batts, so I guess they should stay. This still has them stronger than the German Korp HQ's, but they have all the divisional units that the Rumanians don't, so I think it is ok.




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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 5/8/2009 11:53:46 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline 		Have you set a force reentry point for the soviets? Playing the March 28th version i have observed reconstituted soviet units popping up in unconverted rear rea hexes..

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Post #: 358
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 5/8/2009 11:17:50 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		If you can flip back to page 4, around post 115, Silvain and I have a brief discussion on this.

My thinking is that when this happens, it should be kind of expected. I don't think it happens too often, though. But we all play different, so let us know what you think.

I get more frustrated over the odd times that a unit reconstitutes completely off track from where it should. In addition to those examples posed in the earlier posts, I've noticed, for example, a unit from the Leningrad front reconstituting at Baku, and then sometimes it will start making it's way all the way across the map to get to where it belongs, other times it just sits there, like it's lost or something. It doesn't happen enough to warrant any special attention (and in war who knows what might happen anyway), but it is a slight aggravation when so much time is being put into helping Elmer run the Soviet side.

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Post #: 359
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 5/8/2009 11:48:25 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

If you can flip back to page 4, around post 115, Silvain and I have a brief discussion on this.

My thinking is that when this happens, it should be kind of expected. I don't think it happens too often, though. But we all play different, so let us know what you think.

I get more frustrated over the odd times that a unit reconstitutes completely off track from where it should. In addition to those examples posed in the earlier posts, I've noticed, for example, a unit from the Leningrad front reconstituting at Baku, and then sometimes it will start making it's way all the way across the map to get to where it belongs, other times it just sits there, like it's lost or something. It doesn't happen enough to warrant any special attention (and in war who knows what might happen anyway), but it is a slight aggravation when so much time is being put into helping Elmer run the Soviet side.


I'm sharing your view on units travelling across the map, but you create an other problem by solving this one. Sure soviet units existed in the German rear and were supposedly treated by german security assets and security divisions.. but in D21 my security divisions are retreated over time to fight partisans.. while the soviets pop up in the german rear. Looks like an inconsistency to me. Also we're talking about reconstituted units, not bypassed ones. There are enough bypassed ones that are starved by my weaker units like sec divs and the 'worthy' rumanian etc allies. I personally would have chosen the other of the two evils. Oth, i still can mod D21 to my personal taste.

quote:

I don't think it happens too often


It happens..every turn since around turns 9 or 10 (?).. at least two units. I have Corps HQs and split up units on search and "pin them down" mission.. then units resting behind the front and sometimes fresh reinforcements are brought in to destroy them. I can send you my save files if you want.

Nevertheless i greatly enjoy D21 and appreciate the effort that you and the "crew" have put into this one.

Looks like i have to convert each single hex.. it's just stretching turns into length, and extremely painfull for units that will have to convert the new wilderness terrain which actually is radioactive.

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