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AI for MWIF - Spain

 
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AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/7/2009 9:51:19 PM   
peskpesk


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Spain setup AI

Spain Forces
3-3 RES MIL. 2-3 RES MIL, 1-3 INF DIV, 2-5 CAV, 3-1 GAR, 3-3 INF, 4-1 GAR, 4-3 INF, 5-3 INF, 6-3 INF wp, 5-4 MOT, 5-2-3 HQI, 1 FTR2, 1941 6-5 MEC, 1943 7-6 ARM, 7 CA, 1 TRS

Spain has one basic setup strategy:

* Region defence (Normal defence): Spain is divided into regions and each region is given units to face the threat to it, depending on the size of the threat and the priority of the region

Spain has four special setup strategies:

* Capital defence: Is just as the name suggests a setup where the Spain
land units are setup to defend Madrid.
- Primary Region: Madrid

* Hero city Barcelona defence: When faced with a mighty enemy the chance of holding the border is slim, but the mountain region around Barcelona could stop any attacker. The Spanish land units are setup around Barcelona.
- Primary Region: Barcelona

* Hero city Barcelona and Bilbao defence: When faced with a mighty enemy the chance of holding the border is slim, but the mountain region around Barcelona and Bilbo could stop any attacker. The Spanish land units are setup around Barcelona and Bilbo
- Primary Region: Barcelona and Bilbao

* El-Rif (Spanish Morocco) defence: Escaping certain doom and saving the Rock (Gibraltar) is possible by setting up the a significant force of Spanish Forces in Spanish El-Rif (Spanish Morocco), where they can fight on after Spain is incompletely conquered.
- Primary Region: El-Rif (Spanish Morocco)

Spain has five extreme strategies:

* Attack Portugal: An attacking force of units, not needed in defence against the current threat or factory defence, are placed near Portugal to attack it if the chance is given.
- Primary Region: Portugal Border

* Attack France: An attacking force of units, not needed in defence against the current threat or factory defence, are placed near France to attack it if the chance is given. Normally used after the Axis captures Gibraltar and activates Spain while Mainland France is still not in Axis hands.
- Primary Region: France Border

* Attack Morocco: An attacking force of units, not needed in defence against the current threat or factory defence, are placed near Morocco to attack it if the chance is given
- Primary Region: El-Rif (Spanish Morocco)

* Attack Algeria: An attacking force of units, not needed in defence against the current threat or factory defence, are placed near Algeria to attack it if the chance is given
- Primary Region: El-Rif (Spanish Morocco)

* Attack Gibraltar: An attacking force of units, not needed in defence against the current threat or factory defence, are placed near Gibraltar to attack it if the chance is given
- Primary Region: South border, El-Rif (Spanish Morocco)

Declaration of war
Given a GE/IT declaration of war and Western allies control of Spain OR an alignment by the GE/IT OR USSR/Western allies declaration of war and GE/IT control of Spain. The suggested reasoning for the AI could be as below.

Threats to guard against:

* Threat of enemy land units entering Spain from France
* Threat of enemy land units entering Spain from Portugal
* Threat of enemy land units entering Spain from Gibraltar
* Threat of enemy land units entering Spain from Vichey France
* Threat of enemy land units entering El-Rif (Spanish Morocco) from Algeria
* Threat of enemy land units entering El-Rif (Spanish Morocco) from Marroco
* Threat of enemy land units entering El-Rif (Spanish Morocco) from Gibraltar
* Threat of paradrop on/close to Madrid
* Threat of paradrop on/close to Barcelona
* Threat of paradrop on/close to Bilbao
* Threat of invasion from Bay of Biscay
* Threat of invasion from Western Mediterranean sea
* Threat of invasion from Cape St Vincent
* Threat of invasion from Western Mediterranean sea against El-Rif (Spanish Morocco)
* Threat of invasion from Cape St Vincent sea against El-Rif (Spanish Morocco)
* Threat of having the land unit disrupted

Good hopes:
* Chance of intervention from controlling power
* Chance to try to capture Gibraltar
* Chance to try to conquer Portugal
* Chance to try to conquer Morocco
* Chance to try to conquer Algeria
* Chance to try to attack France
* Chance to try to step on facedown allied/axis unit(s)

Simplified data for the setup script:

Threat Levels

* Small: 1-3 DIV or 1-2 CORP/ARMY + or 1 CORP/ARMY + 1-2 DIV
* Medium: More that Small and less than Large
* Large: 5+ CORP/ARMY OR 8+ DIV

Spanish Forces groups:

1939
* Poor: 1-3 INF DIV, 2-5 CAV, 3-1 GAR
* Fair: 3-3 INF, 4-1 GAR, 4-3 INF
* Good: 5-3 INF, 6-3 INF wp, 5-4 MOT
* HQ: 5-2-3 HQI

1941
* Poor: 1-3 INF DIV, 2-5 CAV, 3-1 GAR
* Fair: 3-3 INF, 4-1 GAR, 4-3 INF
* Good: 5-3 INF, 6-3 INF wp, 5-4 MOT, 6-5 MEC
* HQ: 5-2-3 HQI

1943
* Poor: 1-3 INF DIV, 2-5 CAV, 3-1 GAR
* Fair: 3-3 INF, 4-1 GAR, 4-3 INF
* Good: 5-3 INF, 6-3 INF wp, 5-4 MOT, 6-5 MEC, 7-6 ARM
* HQ: 5-2-3 HQI

Spanish Regions




Bilbao
Hexes = Biblao + 1 // 1 hex around
Priority = 1 //1 highest, 5 lowest

Barcelona
Hexes = Barcelona + 1 // 1 hex around
Priority = 1

Madrid
Hexes = Madrid + 1 // 1 hex around
Priority = 2

North coast
Hexes = InvadableCoast(Spain, Bay of Biscay) + 1 // 1 hex inland from the coast
Priority = 4

South coast
Hexes = InvadableCoast Coast(Spain, Cape St Vincent) + 1 // 1 hex inland from the coast

East coast
Hexes = InvadableCoast(Spain, Western Mediterranean sea) + 1 // 1 hex inland from the coast
Priority = 3

South border
Hexes = Border(Spain, Gibraltar) + 1 // 1 hex inland from border
Priority = 3

Portugal border
Hexes = Border(Spain, Portugal) + 1 // 1 hex inland from the border
Priority = 3

France border
Hexes = Border(Spain, France) + 1 // 1 hex inland from the border
Priority = 3

El-Rif (Spanish Morocco)
Hexes = Governed Region El-Rif (Spanish Morocco) // All hexes within the El-Rif (Spanish Morocco) territory
Priority = 5

Simplified logic of the primary rule of the setup script

1 Set the threat level for all Spanish regions

2 Calculate the number of units needed to meet the given threats for all Spanish regions

3 Calculate whether there are extra or too few units to handle all threats

4 Consider using a special defense

5 For all Spanish regions decide how many units each it is assigned.


  • 5a If a Normal defence is chosen, modify allocation of defending units to each Spanish region depending on whether there are extra or too few units.

  • 5b If a Special defense is chosen, the defence has coded how many of the available units the primary region(s) is assigned. The rest of the units are assigned like by Normal defence.


6 Sort all Spanish regions according to their threat level and priority

7 For all Spanish regions pick which units it is assigned.


  • 7a Assign 1 poor unit to each region with a Small threat level, until there are no more poor units, or no more regions with a Small threat level. The
    purpose behind doing this is to limit the number of good or fair units given
    to regions with a Small threat level. Note that this does not apply to
    regions with a No threat level that have 1 unit allocated (e.g., regions with
    a priority of 1 or 2).

  • 7b Assign 1 good unit to each region with a Large threat level, until there are
    no more good units, or no more regions with a Large threat level

  • 7c Distribute any remaining units


8 The exact placement of units in each region is decided by a special AIO routine.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"
Post #: 1
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/7/2009 11:36:10 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Intuitively obvious to the casual observer.

Peter has been working on this for a while, with my assistence.
---
Peter, since you restricted the definition of a coastal hex to be one that can be invaded, then when determining 1 hex inland from the 'coast', I believe that Seville would not be included (since it is not adjacent to an invadable hex).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 2
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/7/2009 11:38:24 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Intuitively obvious to the casual observer.

Peter has been working on this for a while, with my assistence.
---
Peter, since you restricted the definition of a coastal hex to be one that can be invaded, then when determining 1 hex inland from the 'coast', I believe that Seville would not be included (since it is not adjacent to an invadable hex).

Don't forget that PARA can assault those coastal hexes that invasion can't invade, for nearly the same benefit.
So when PARA are around, don't fall into the trap of not defending hexes that can't be invaded from the sea, and look for the skies.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 3
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/7/2009 11:47:16 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Intuitively obvious to the casual observer.

Peter has been working on this for a while, with my assistence.
---
Peter, since you restricted the definition of a coastal hex to be one that can be invaded, then when determining 1 hex inland from the 'coast', I believe that Seville would not be included (since it is not adjacent to an invadable hex).

Don't forget that PARA can assault those coastal hexes that invasion can't invade, for nearly the same benefit.
So when PARA are around, don't fall into the trap of not defending hexes that can't be invaded from the sea, and look for the skies.

The basic concept behind the logic is supply for the invader, whether he comes by sea or land. The threat level to any hex is aggregated. So, Bilbao has all 3 of the possible threats: land, sea, and air. Every hex has a potential para threat to it, dependnig on the availability and disposition of enemy para units (et al).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 4
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 12:42:41 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Don't forget that PARA can assault those coastal hexes that invasion can't invade, for nearly the same benefit.
So when PARA are around, don't fall into the trap of not defending hexes that can't be invaded from the sea, and look for the skies.

The basic concept behind the logic is supply for the invader, whether he comes by sea or land. The threat level to any hex is aggregated. So, Bilbao has all 3 of the possible threats: land, sea, and air. Every hex has a potential para threat to it, dependnig on the availability and disposition of enemy para units (et al).

Coastal hexes have an increased PARA threat, in that after the drop the invaders can debark more units where the para droped, and this hex in which they could not invade initialy turns in into a bridgehead. This was what I meant.

I speak from the experience as the German as having overlooked an invasion in Venice, thinking that Venice was not invadable. The allies came from the air, and Venice was their bridgehead.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 5
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 1:05:35 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Don't forget that PARA can assault those coastal hexes that invasion can't invade, for nearly the same benefit.
So when PARA are around, don't fall into the trap of not defending hexes that can't be invaded from the sea, and look for the skies.

The basic concept behind the logic is supply for the invader, whether he comes by sea or land. The threat level to any hex is aggregated. So, Bilbao has all 3 of the possible threats: land, sea, and air. Every hex has a potential para threat to it, dependnig on the availability and disposition of enemy para units (et al).

Coastal hexes have an increased PARA threat, in that after the drop the invaders can debark more units where the para droped, and this hex in which they could not invade initialy turns in into a bridgehead. This was what I meant.

I speak from the experience as the German as having overlooked an invasion in Venice, thinking that Venice was not invadable. The allies came from the air, and Venice was their bridgehead.


Good point. Shore bombardment support can also be used to aid the paradrop, can't it?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 6
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 2:05:20 AM   
paulderynck


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Yes.

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
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RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 8:41:02 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Good point. Shore bombardment support can also be used to aid the paradrop, can't it?

Sure it can. The only thing that can't be done on coastal hexes that do not have a full all sea hexside, is invasion. All the rest is available. Shore bombardment, debarkation, supply (depending on the rules you use, you may need an HQ in the Bridgehead for debarkation & supply).

< Message edited by Froonp -- 5/8/2009 8:45:13 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
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RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 12:49:45 PM   
oscar72se

 

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Well, in addition to this there is a +1 bonus for each unit that makes it to the drop. On the other hand I'd like to point out some potential draw-backs with paradrops as opposed to "traditional" sea invasions:
1. It is far easier for an axis player to intercept units invading from the air than from the sea.
2. The paradropping consumes vital air missions (unless using up an OC in a super combined) that could be used for preemptive tac-bombing.
3. Paradropping is far less "sneaky" than a sea invasion because of the positioning of the ATRs and paratroopers, this means that the axis player propably would try to spare 1-2 fighters "just-in-case"
4. Paratroopers are EXPENSIVE and take a long time to build....

I'm not saying that paradropping is a bad idea, I'm just saying that there are elevated risks and drawbacks.

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 9
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 4:19:18 PM   
peskpesk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Intuitively obvious to the casual observer.

Peter has been working on this for a while, with my assistence.
---
Peter, since you restricted the definition of a coastal hex to be one that can be invaded, then when determining 1 hex inland from the 'coast', I believe that Seville would not be included (since it is not adjacent to an invadable hex).


Correct, I have not had the time to update the region borders on the map yet, there are several hexes that are not invadable.

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 10
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 4:20:17 PM   
peskpesk


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The question is: Against a Small, Medium or Large threat (by invasion/paradrop) how would you defend the north cost of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?

Look on the image:




Ex for a small threat my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:

  • Bilbao
  • Port of Ferrol
  • Mountain Hex (62,20)


and that a maximum of three units are assigned to the region.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 5/9/2009 9:13:37 AM >


_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to peskpesk)
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RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 4:56:28 PM   
oscar72se

 

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If you get your opponent to commit his troops to the northwest of Spain you have gained a lot! I think that a defence of Spain should be focused on bogging down the opponent in the mountains. IMO the key to a successful defence of Spain is taking the fight to the mountains where the odds favor the defender. Therefore the hexes around Bilbao are super important whilst the Port of Ferrol could "be let go". Just defend hex 63,18 and let the invader come from the northwest, he is surely to bogged down and is likely to choose another option instead. If you are to use only three non-divisional units to defend Northern Spain i would put one land unit in each the following hexes:

  • Bilbao
  • Santander
  • In the Wood Hex (63,19), this is a reserve unit. If the invader lands in the northwest this unit rushes to hex 63,18 in order to slow the advance dowin. If he lands in the east this land unit helps there instead.


This way I believe Spain utilizes her troops better. IMO it is very important for a "weak" nation not to defend hexes that doesn't need defending.

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 12
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 5:09:18 PM   
composer99


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I would agree with Orm's proposed unit placement. The best way to stop an invasion of northern Spain by sea is to boost the notional and kill the invaders on the beaches. If they get ashore and have flipped your units in the rear, you can't stop them from pressing inland. In particular, if the Allies have just declared war on Spain and they are invading from the north, the notional will be 0 factors anywhere where you don't have a ZoC.

Of course, if the Allies are smart they will have threats to Spanish Morocco and southern Spain as well so as to stretch the Spanish defenders everywhere.

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RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 5:46:05 PM   
oscar72se

 

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I agree, it would be ideal to try to stop the invaders from getting ashore. But given the number of defenders and possible number of invasion hexes, you must choose what to prioritize. A defending unit in the northwest is a unit not defending in the south. My experience is that if the allied player really, really wants to invade somewhere he will propably be successful. The only thing the axis player can do is try to make it as difficult as possible.

So, let the invader enter the beaches in the northwest and then swarm the mountains where there is no shore bombardment, double movement costs and double defensive factors...

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 14
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/8/2009 5:57:22 PM   
praem


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I've never tried to either defend nor invade Spain by sea, but looking at the map, given 3 corps I think I'd place them like this (in order of priority):
1 corps in Bilbao (protect that factory)
1 corps in the on the resource-hex (ZOC on two minor ports og Vigo and Ferrol and 1 coastal hex)
1 corps in hex 62:20 - ZOC the rest of the northen beach

Given 1 more corps, I'd place that in Santander - if one more, then beef up the defence of Bilbao.


(in reply to composer99)
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RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 4:29:02 AM   
Mad Russian


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Spain is in a bad way. They have to defend against both an Axis and an Allied attack and the defenses are greatly different depending on which side attacks them.

If the Axis comes there will be no stopping the flood. In that case it's just a matter of how long you can hold out and how soon the Allies can come to your aid. With a little luck and no Allied support, for even an average length turn, the war in Spain can be over before you know what hit you.

If the Allies come they generally won't get Spain in a single turn. That allows the Axis a turn to respond which is good since they are generally not in a position to support Spain. Any uncommitted Italian naval units can play an extremely important role in Spain's survival. As can any Axis ground units that can get close enough to support the defense.

Good Hunting.

MR


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RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 9:21:12 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

The question is: Against a Small, Medium or Large threat (by invasion/paradrop) how would you defend the north cost of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?

Look on the image:




Ex for a small threat my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:

  • Bilbao
  • Port of Ferror
  • Mountain Hex (62,20)


and that a maximum of three units are assigned to the region.


Looks like a nice defence against a minor invasion.

Against a major invasion I would place 4 to 6 units to defend against an invasion from Bay of Biscay.

1 strong unit in Bilbao
Resource-Hex(62,18)
HQ in forest Hex(64,20)
Mountain Hex(62,20)

Or perhaps even:
2 units in Bilbao. ( 1 corp and 1 div)
1 corps in each the minor ports of Vigo, Ferrol and Satander.
1 corps in Mountain Hex. (62,20)
And the HQ in the forrest hex for supply in fine weather. (64,20)

If the force invading has major air and shore bombardment it might be wise to abandon the costal defence and defend one hex behind or even two hexes. Are not the setup areas a bit small?

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 17
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 10:33:53 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
If the Axis comes there will be no stopping the flood. In that case it's just a matter of how long you can hold out and how soon the Allies can come to your aid. With a little luck and no Allied support, for even an average length turn, the war in Spain can be over before you know what hit you.

Still assuming that you refer to ancient WiF versions, I have to add that in WiF FE you have to control the capital PLUS any factory hex in the country to conquer it.
In your old time, conquering Madrid was enough, now you also need Bilbao (Mountain) and Barcelone (mountain + difficult access from the north).
I can assure you that the Axis invading Spain from the Pyrenees won't conquer it in 1 turn without a stroke of good luck or very bad allied play.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 18
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 10:39:00 AM   
christo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Spain is in a bad way. They have to defend against both an Axis and an Allied attack and the defenses are greatly different depending on which side attacks them.

snip

If the Allies come they generally won't get Spain in a single turn. That allows the Axis a turn to respond which is good since they are generally not in a position to support Spain. Any uncommitted Italian naval units can play an extremely important role in Spain's survival. As can any Axis ground units that can get close enough to support the defense.

Good Hunting.

MR



Just a query..
In peoples experience, how many games have the allies attacked a neutral Spain? There is no way that they could do it early in the game and when they are on the offensive it does not make much sense to make a new enemy, give Adolf factories, several resources and fantastic defensive terrain. Granted this does need to factored in as a possible for the AIO but 99.9% of the time the aggressor is the axis.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 19
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 10:43:24 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: christo
Just a query..
In peoples experience, how many games have the allies attacked a neutral Spain? There is no way that they could do it early in the game and when they are on the offensive it does not make much sense to make a new enemy, give Adolf factories, several resources and fantastic defensive terrain. Granted this does need to factored in as a possible for the AIO but 99.9% of the time the aggressor is the axis.


Never seen (about 20 games played).

(in reply to christo)
Post #: 20
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 10:43:27 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I can assure you that the Axis invading Spain from the Pyrenees won't conquer it in 1 turn without a stroke of good luck or very bad allied play.



I've managed to do so with Vichy France still in play. But it cost me dearly. I decided speed was important and spent one offensive chit to get it done fast. I caught the allies by suprise by spending the offensive in the Spanish mountains.

< Message edited by Orm -- 5/9/2009 10:45:16 AM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 21
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 12:56:43 PM   
peskpesk


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The question is: Against a Small, Medium or Large threat (by invasion/paradrop) how would you defend the esat cost of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?

Look on the image:




Ex for a medium threat my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:
  • Barcelona
  • Cartagena
  • Valencia
  • Malaga
  • Almeria
  • Mountain hex (67,25)

and that 2 to maximum of 5 units are assigned to the region.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 5/9/2009 12:57:19 PM >


_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 22
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 1:45:06 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Still assuming that you refer to ancient WiF versions, I have to add that in WiF FE you have to control the capital PLUS any factory hex in the country to conquer it.
In your old time, conquering Madrid was enough, now you also need Bilbao (Mountain) and Barcelone (mountain + difficult access from the north).
I can assure you that the Axis invading Spain from the Pyrenees won't conquer it in 1 turn without a stroke of good luck or very bad allied play.


Yes, still referring to the ancient WiF version of the game.....I would point out to you that all three of the objectives you mention are in the top half of Spain closest to the German invasion points. The battle may not be for Madrid any more, but from an Axis point of view, Bilboa is easily accessible to a large scale attack, Barcelona is accessible from land, sea and air, while Madrid is still deep inside the country.

Certainly things have changed. To me, it looks like those changes have made it harder for the Allies to take Spain, not the Axis. All the objectives are in the northern half the country. What was once a tough fight to get to Madrid before the Axis now doesn't stop there. You now have to advance much further. Bilboa is easily accessed from land and sea, but Barcelona will be tough for the Allies to get before German intervention.


quote:

ORIGINAL: christo

Just a query..
In peoples experience, how many games have the allies attacked a neutral Spain? There is no way that they could do it early in the game and when they are on the offensive it does not make much sense to make a new enemy, give Adolf factories, several resources and fantastic defensive terrain. Granted this does need to factored in as a possible for the AIO but 99.9% of the time the aggressor is the axis.



I've seen Spain attacked 3 times by the Allies. They only got it once.

Does attacking Spain make sense? Sometimes it does. Sometimes doing anything makes sense. The question is how often are the risks worth the returns. In our group we have a Patton. His answer is to attack when you have a good opportunity because it's a good opportunity and they shouldn't be wasted, to attack when you have a mediocre opportunity because you have at least an even chance of success, to attack when you have a poor opportunity because the enemy won't be expecting it and if the attack succeeds you can often blow his entire front wide open.

In our group you never take ANYTHING for granted.

If you get Spain, you are definitely going to spread the German defenders even more thinly across the continent. That makes D-Day that much easier and you have troops that can then either move up to attack Southern France or be moved from Spain to invade South France instead of from Italy...if you have Allied troops in Italy....

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/9/2009 1:58:04 PM >


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Post #: 23
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 2:10:21 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

The question is: Against a Small, Medium or Large threat (by invasion/paradrop) how would you defend the esat cost of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?



Ex for a medium threat my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:
  • Barcelona
  • Cartagena
  • Valencia
  • Malaga
  • Almeria
  • Mountain hex (67,25)

and that 2 to maximum of 5 units are assigned to the region.





To me a better question is how do you know the threat level?

The number 1 thing in WiF is intelligence.

With that in mind, how do you know what my intentions are? I can bring units from half a dozen hexes away to concentrate them for an attack, an airborne drop can literally appear out of thin air (pun intended) while a sea invasion will come from zones away.

If I do it right that will all happen at once. Before you can respond.

I agree if you have an idea what is coming you can brace for it. It's been my experience that the best gamers never let you see what is coming before you get hit. Not sure about the amount of information available in MWiF but I would think that would still hold true.

If I activate Vichy as German, move infantry units to the border and then place an armored corps near Bilbao, a paratroop unit with supporting German air moves into Toulouse, I also move two German infantry units to the main Italian Fleet based where they can reach the eastern shore of Spain, what do you think the threat level is and how do you respond to that?

In the old days I might let you "catch" me moving them into those areas and I might not. We had a house rule that you couldn't look under a stack. That you could only see what was on the top of the stack. So, some FOW, but not a lot.

The activation of Vichy as German, the move to the border with Spain, German infantry units based with the Italian navy would tell you what? What would you consider Spain's threat level as the Allies? Would you prepare for an attack on Spain? How soon would it be coming and if so, from where?


Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/9/2009 2:24:01 PM >


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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 24
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 6:01:45 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

The question is: Against a Small, Medium or Large threat (by invasion/paradrop) how would you defend the esat cost of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?



Ex for a medium threat my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:
  • Barcelona
  • Cartagena
  • Valencia
  • Malaga
  • Almeria
  • Mountain hex (67,25)

and that 2 to maximum of 5 units are assigned to the region.





To me a better question is how do you know the threat level?

The number 1 thing in WiF is intelligence.

With that in mind, how do you know what my intentions are? I can bring units from half a dozen hexes away to concentrate them for an attack, an airborne drop can literally appear out of thin air (pun intended) while a sea invasion will come from zones away.

If I do it right that will all happen at once. Before you can respond.

I agree if you have an idea what is coming you can brace for it. It's been my experience that the best gamers never let you see what is coming before you get hit. Not sure about the amount of information available in MWiF but I would think that would still hold true.

If I activate Vichy as German, move infantry units to the border and then place an armored corps near Bilbao, a paratroop unit with supporting German air moves into Toulouse, I also move two German infantry units to the main Italian Fleet based where they can reach the eastern shore of Spain, what do you think the threat level is and how do you respond to that?

In the old days I might let you "catch" me moving them into those areas and I might not. We had a house rule that you couldn't look under a stack. That you could only see what was on the top of the stack. So, some FOW, but not a lot.

The activation of Vichy as German, the move to the border with Spain, German infantry units based with the Italian navy would tell you what? What would you consider Spain's threat level as the Allies? Would you prepare for an attack on Spain? How soon would it be coming and if so, from where?


Good Hunting.

MR


The task that Peter is working on is where to setup the Spanish units. So, the point in the sequence of play where this occurs is during the DOW phase for the Axis. A lot of the things that you mention will have to have been done in an earlier impulse. Since the rest of the Allies can not help the Spanish durnig the first impulse, their units are ignored.

We have already worked out determining which hexes can be attacked via paradrop and invasion (the scripts for those are done). As part of those calculations, the maximum strength of each attack can be provided by the computer to the "setup script". These form the basis of determining threat levels.

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Post #: 25
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 8:02:23 PM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline
There is also the caveat that if you defend everywhere, you defend nowhere.  Perhaps it is better to set up for a delaying action, so you can get your support minors roll with the british, then bug out.  As well, a good defense against an invasion may be the CW taking the supply through the seazone away.  Realistically, Spain will fall to the Axis, so its defense will probably be only one of delay.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 26
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/9/2009 8:58:55 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

There is also the caveat that if you defend everywhere, you defend nowhere.  Perhaps it is better to set up for a delaying action, so you can get your support minors roll with the british, then bug out.  As well, a good defense against an invasion may be the CW taking the supply through the seazone away.  Realistically, Spain will fall to the Axis, so its defense will probably be only one of delay.

I disagree. The purpose is not only to delay, but also to require the Axis to commit specialized units to the conquest of Spain. The list of unit types is long, and fairly obvious. If the Spanish defenders force the Axis to put in a lot of units over a long period of time, then the Allied players beam happiness.

A poor defense means the Axis might suffer few or no losses and be able to use their best units in combat elsewhere.

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Post #: 27
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/10/2009 1:18:41 AM   
christo

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 11/24/2005
From: adelaide, australia
Status: offline

Surely the most important question is not "where are the opposition comming from?" but rather "what are they trying to achieve?"
I realise that this falls under a different topic than Spain setup and has already been alluded to in the "priority" of the initial post. Conquering Spain is of secondary importance. Getting supply through one of the two northern rail lines to allow an attack on Gibraltar is what it is all about.
I would happily have the vast majority of Spain troops defending the north with only a screening force to prevent the movement of any troops that invade the east coast. Supply through the eastern med for the invading forces/ disembarked will be contested by the royal navy.

It will be interesting to see how the hex value for the AIO will be determined.

Christo

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 28
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/10/2009 8:50:23 AM   
praem


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline
The rail-line would become open, if Spain must surrender. If France has fallen, then you need to defend the northern passes. In 40 I cant see spain having more than 5 units for the coast, if the threat via the mountains is viable (and an attack via Vichy is not likely) - so where to plase them?
1 - Cartagena - road to Madrid and major port in a clear hex.
2 - Barcelona - factory and port
3 - Almeria
4 - Malaga
5 - Valencia

The reason Almeria and Malaga are higher priority than Valencia is the aproach to Gibraltar

(in reply to christo)
Post #: 29
RE: AI for MWIF - Spain - 5/10/2009 9:27:46 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
Example of a 1940 East coast defence of Spain could look like. (Situation could be a Invasion attempt from very brave (fool) Italian. The AIO must be prepared for everything.






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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 5/10/2009 5:13:48 PM >


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