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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Weather? Page: [1]
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Weather? - 5/24/2002 4:50:31 AM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		It would be nice to see weather on the map! It's to generic! Let's see storm front's I can hide my CV's in! Thatsaved many of US CV's from getting sunk. It saved the Big E more than once, at Sant Cruz! What about wind direction? This is such a great game engine a few minor tweeks and whammy... the whole enchaulatta!

"Keep on trucking, think of all the good way to be bad..."

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff
Post #: 1
wind direction!? - 5/24/2002 5:26:37 AM   
brisd


Posts: 614
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline 		You MUST be kidding...

This is an operational game covering (at minimum) 1 day turns. The wind can shift many times during 24 hrs and you as the player due not have tactical control of your TF's. The AI does - that is the scope of the game. There were some decent tactical carrier ops wargames in the past - I cut my baby teeth on AH's "Midway"!. :cool:

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 2
- 5/24/2002 5:53:16 AM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Nope....Even a Typhoon would only move 4 to 8 hexes. Watch those hurricanes approach Florida. Storms spiral, you know the corriolas affect, so their ground speed isn't the same as it's wind speed. On the average a storm might cover a couple of hexes a day and move a couple of hexes a day. I cut my teeth on Flattop, basically the same scale as this! The art of carrier warfare in WWII was finding the storm fronts and hiding in them. Nagumo followed a storm front, and by the way out ran it, on his approach to Midway! Ever see the ole WWII movie "Wing and a Prayer"? At the end they were hiding in a storm front. True it's Hollywood but they had Naval advisors for the movie. You might want to read a bit more history and play a few less computer games.

Stay Real! Remember history, correctly, or your doomed to repeat it!

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 3
Weather... - 5/24/2002 6:20:39 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		This comes up pretty often - first at the operation scale, it's not your decision on how to react to local weather. Your TF commanders will use it as they deem best. Lacking satellite imagery and with less developed meteorological knowledge than we know possess, it was very difficult to accurately predict local weather in this area.

My understanding is that the local weather in the South Pacific changed very frequently, both from location to location and from hour to hour. The general forecast gives you a sense of what to expect for operational planning, but it's guidance rather than any guarantee. You may be seeing Thunderstorms that will prevent raids on your resupply convoy approaching Port Moresby, but a similar convoy at Rabaul may be without such available cloud cover. Also, my understanding is that Typhoons were not as common in this part of the theater.

All in all, it's impossible to give much more accurate estimates without being somewhat ahistorical.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 4
- 5/24/2002 8:57:06 AM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Erik,

I am playing the big campaign now, as USA, and had clear weather but my air groups at PM would not fly. PM was socked in!!!!!!! WHAT the...! Thats why showing weather on the map is important. I wouldn't have commited my carriers if I new PM was socked in! Ever play the ole Flattop game? A gas and a half, cool game! How about the ole War in the Pacific monster game?

I think it would work out....

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 5
- 5/24/2002 11:12:48 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		A weather forecast of clear just means that (overall) the chances are better than average that conditions will be clear. But weather in that area is such that local squalls and thunderstorms can blow up practically anywhere and that clear weather in the morning doesn't mean clear weather in the afternoon. So, therefore, you can't know (and should be prepared for the fact) that conditions will not be good everywhere even if the general forecast is favorable.

Besides, remember, this is 1942 in a sparsely populated (and not extensively studied area).

With the scale of the game, you ordered the carriers in, calculating on the forecast that weather would be good (and it was expected to stay that way). Unfortunately for you and your operations, by the time the carriers got on station, an unexpected thunderstorm had developed over Port Moresby and grounded all flights. Bad luck for your operations, but that's the way things are. Weathermen are still maligned for wrong forecasts, and things are much better now than they were then.

There was a very good post on this over a month ago (so it isn't around anymore) that was posted by a meteorologist. It explained what conditions were like in the area pretty well.

_____________________________


(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 6
- 5/24/2002 7:59:59 PM   
svhrg

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: New York, NY
Status: offline 		So just for clarification, the forecast presented at the begining of the turn is a general forecast for the entire PTO? My question then is (which I have also posted elsewhere not realizing that this had been brought up already - sorry ;) ), would it not be useful to see the existing weather conditions at each of your bases and your TF locations. As has been previously mentioned, in the Pacific, conditions can vary dramaticaly over short distances. Therefore, I am not sure how useful a general forcast for hundred of miles really is. I am sure that even in 1942 local commanders communicated with each other re: local conditions and probably had some idea if a storm front that prevented air ops 12hrs earlier was expected to clear over the next 12/24hrs and communicated this info to the theater commander. I understand that some randomness should be present but maybe it might be useful to be able to access, at the begining of a turn, a table that list current weather conditions at all your bases rather than a general forecast with a percentage probability that conditions will clear or worsen. Just a thought:cool:

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 7
- 5/24/2002 8:22:10 PM   
Griffin

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline 		I think since one turn AH's Flat Top is one hour so you can keep track of the "weather system", I had the game but barely played it. But for UV, as Erik said, is quite impossible to show every weather pattern the event is in -- and you don't even know when the exact time the air package is launched! Frankly, I was extremely frustrated when my air strike package could not get delivered while watch those nasty CVBG got away with my bare eyes, possbily laughing and celebrating their luck. But better understanding of the game system makes me rethink the way I plot my moves.

Also, you don't have a weather satellite hanging over your head telling you what is going on. ;)

Good hunting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt Cliff
[B]Erik,

I am playing the big campaign now, as USA, and had clear weather but my air groups at PM would not fly. PM was socked in!!!!!!! WHAT the...! Thats why showing weather on the map is important. I wouldn't have commited my carriers if I new PM was socked in! Ever play the ole Flattop game? A gas and a half, cool game! How about the ole War in the Pacific monster game?

I think it would work out.... [/B][/QUOTE]

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 8
- 5/24/2002 9:00:42 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		A general display on the map of daily weather systems would be of great value! Each base comander had a weather officer who reported up the chain of command. Each patrol plane would report what weather it encountered. So the SWPAC weather officer could give a report, say the F10 key and you'd see the weather fronts and which way there heading! They'd display like the hex grid, which by the way is quit loud. The info is not 100% but the best available info "... I say let's go..." famous words based on a weather officers say so! You' need to know where these weather fronts are. Without it the game is hamstrung and not worth playing. WitP better have this feature or I won't buy it. This game is soooo COOOOL, the best ever for this area of warfare, let's have the whole enchallatta, PLEASE!

"Follow Sobel or follow Winters, it's your choice..."

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 9
- 5/24/2002 9:17:45 PM   
madflava13


Posts: 1530
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		First off, the "loud" hex grid under the F6 key is intended only to show where units may move - thus the color coding. I only use it to specifically place subs and mining ops. If you want a "quiet" hex grid, before you load up the scenario, go under the options and select "show hexes" - this puts in a nice black grid that stays under everything....

As for the weather, its not possible to do what you want, and will be even more impossible in WiTP. Weather in the area changed hourly - thats why sometimes you have "clear skies" but strikes don't get off - squalls, storms, etc. came up that quickly. At Coral Sea, for example, Zuikaku survived much damage because of a sudden storm she ducked into as the SBDs were attacking. UV simulates this. There were no common "fronts" or weather patterns in this region, thus it would be impossible to depict weather with any degree of accuracy. The system in place models what historically happened. Yes, in real life sometimes TFs got left hanging because they thought they would have LBA support, but the field was socked in suddenly.

To model what you want in UV and WiTP would require a Cray supercomputer. Honestly, thats what the weather people use to do exactly what you are asking for.

_____________________________

"The Paraguayan Air Force's request for spraying subsidies was not as Paraguayan as it were..."

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 10
- 5/25/2002 12:46:46 AM   
svhrg

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: New York, NY
Status: offline 		Weather or no weather, the game is definitely worth playing and, unfortunately for my wife, I am totally addicted to it :D. I totaly understand the dilema with accurately creating a weather model for a game of this scale in the Pacific theater (even today with satelites half the time my extended local weather forcast is a roll of the dice). Having said that, what is the effect on the game of the forecast provided at the begining of a turn? Does it increase the probability of certain types of weather throughout the map? Maybe, just a little clarification on how the exisiting weather model works would be helpful.

TKS:)

R

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 11
- 5/25/2002 12:53:56 AM   
dgaad

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 7/25/2001
From: Hockeytown
Status: offline 		A discussion of weather gathering limitations is in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19673

_____________________________

Last time I checked, the forums were messed up. ;)

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 12
- 5/25/2002 8:21:45 AM   
svhrg

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: New York, NY
Status: offline 		TKS dgaad - also I ref'd back to the manual and the description on pg 101/102 helps as well (my problem has always been fully reading the manual). However, if possible, I think WitP would greatly benefit from some addition to the weather data. By no means do I think this makes in the quality of the game, but I think a lot of individuals would love to see a little more detail related to weather. Maybe it could be as basic as conditions existing at each base/TF over the past turn, with no implication that those conditions will be present on the following turn. I am assuming that weather is determined at each location by a dice roll which is probably pretty close to conditions in the Pacific anyway.

Anyway, I love this game and it's Friday night on Memorial Day weekend - wife doing the dishes and if I get caught on this forum :eek:, well I think Matrix is going to have to sell me another copy of this game. N'ough said

R

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 13
- 5/25/2002 8:27:33 AM   
dgaad

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 7/25/2001
From: Hockeytown
Status: offline 		svhrg : basically, I agree with the notion that a little more detail wouldn't be ahistorical.

The best thing for matrix to do would be to get ahold of a typical weather report summary that was generated for SoPac or CentPac commands, and use that as the basis for the level of detail provided to players.

I maintain however, that there will be no difference in your ability to have your aircraft ready to launch successful strikes. More detail in this area is simply going to be more false prediction data.

Given the scale of the WitP map, though, some more granularity will be required. Even the seasons of the year will be different on one part of the map or another in WitP.

_____________________________

Last time I checked, the forums were messed up. ;)

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 14
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