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Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/21/2009 5:52:54 PM   
PeteG662


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Status: offline 		Deadly 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster remembered

By Herbert A. Sample - The Associated Press
Posted : Thursday May 21, 2009 9:18:53 EDT

HONOLULU — The Navy is commemorating a series of explosions at Pearl Harbor's West Loch on May 21, 1944, that killed 163 servicemen, wounded 396 others and destroyed nine landing ships that were preparing for the invasion of the Marianas Islands.

Four survivors are attending the Thursday ceremony near the site of the explosions, which is in an area off-limits to the public.

The disaster is still not widely known 65 years later.

But even less known is the fact that a nearly all-black Army unit was present where the first explosions rang out.

Even though they were not trained for the task, the 29th Chemical Decontamination Company was ordered to move ammunition on one of the ships. The unit lost 58 soldiers, more than a third of the total casualties from the disaster.

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2009/05/ap_west_loch_disaster_052109/








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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/21/2009 5:53:21 PM   
PeteG662


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Status: offline 		The remains of the LST-480 is seen in West Loch near Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. The Navy vessel sank after an accidental explosion on May 21, 1944, that killed 163 men and sank several other Landing Ship Tank vessels.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/21/2009 8:13:03 PM   
mikemike

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: a maze of twisty little passages, all different
Status: offline 		This sounds suspiciously like the Port Chicago disaster - black personnel loading ammunition without proper training and using unsafe procedures under pressure from their officers.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 3:17:27 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemike

This sounds suspiciously like the Port Chicago disaster - black personnel loading ammunition without proper training and using unsafe procedures under pressure from their officers.


A nice racist remark!!!

ANY COLOURED personnel loading ammunition without proper training and using unsafe procedures under pressure from their officers would likely suffer the same result!!


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 4:28:32 AM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemike

This sounds suspiciously like the Port Chicago disaster - black personnel loading ammunition without proper training and using unsafe procedures under pressure from their officers.


A nice racist remark!!!

ANY COLOURED personnel loading ammunition without proper training and using unsafe procedures under pressure from their officers would likely suffer the same result!!



I may have misunderstood mikemike's post, but I took it to be a swing at the officers in charge who forced untrained personnel (who happened to be black) to handle the ammo.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 4:40:46 AM   
thegreatwent


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Status: offline 		Jeff, I don't believe the remark was racist. In fact when the Port Chicago Disaster occurred it was seen by African-Americans and sympathetic whites as evidence that black sailors were poorly trained and given hazardous assignments instead of white sailors. Small mutinies occurred after leading to black servicemen being imprisoned for failing to follow orders. Public sentiment forced the military to reexamine its practice of assigning black units to duty that was both dangerous and outside of their assigned specialty and training. I would say that the description of both events invites comparison and if there is a point about racism to be made it would be that few today even are aware of these calamities, one could easily ask what if the casualties were fair skinned? Would awareness of the events be greater?

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 7:49:48 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Maybe because you live where such comments were normal, they can more easily be accepted. But I thought things needed to be so PC that more though would go into the comment.

In general, sending anyone into such a situation is asking for a disatser to happen, Black, White, Brown or Yellow. So defining them as "black personnel" is creating a slur (whether intended or not). Identifying them as "personnel loading ammunition without proper training" should have been enough.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 11:59:39 AM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

" I would say that the description of both events invites comparison and if there is a point about racism to be made it would be that few today even are aware of these calamities, one could easily ask what if the casualties were fair skinned? Would awareness of the events be greater?"



I doubt it..How much do you know about the Rhona disaster? I know about it because I lost an uncle on the Rhona.

My family did not know about till I "found" him just a couple of years ago.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 12:38:17 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

" I would say that the description of both events invites comparison and if there is a point about racism to be made it would be that few today even are aware of these calamities, one could easily ask what if the casualties were fair skinned? Would awareness of the events be greater?"



I doubt it..How much do you know about the Rhona disaster? I know about it because I lost an uncle on the Rhona.

My family did not know about till I "found" him just a couple of years ago.


Most large organizations (whether they are military or not) are generally loathe to advertise details on what can be determined "self-inflicted wounds"...

Large scale explosions of ships/docks happened several times throughout the war (usually loading or unloading ammo)... there was a thread about some of them a few months ago on this forum detailing some of them (including this one, iirc.)

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 12:51:17 PM   
Iridium


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Maybe because you live where such comments were normal, they can more easily be accepted. But I thought things needed to be so PC that more though would go into the comment.

In general, sending anyone into such a situation is asking for a disatser to happen, Black, White, Brown or Yellow. So defining them as "black personnel" is creating a slur (whether intended or not). Identifying them as "personnel loading ammunition without proper training" should have been enough.


That wasn't the original poster's point, the untrained men in the Port Chicago Disaster happened to be black. Are we no longer allowed to even state that someone is black, white, purple?...etc I'm all for not being racist but making it impossible to even describe individuals seems a bit silly. Nothing was wrong with that post, black =/ poorly trained, it was poorly trained personnel that happened to be black.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 1:29:25 PM   
Anthropoid


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Status: offline 		It would not be surprising if black service personnel in the U.S. military at that time generaly tended to receive inadequate training, though assuming it should not be automatic.

It would not be surprising because of the generally still quite pervasive racism in the U.S., but indeed, globally at that time. If such poorly trained black service personnel were also then assigned to hazardous duties where their lack of training placed them at heightened risk relative to what they would experience compared to say a more highly trained unit, then that would again be revealing of the widespread racism at the time. If non-integrated 'white' units with adequate training for such jobs were being preferentially kept out of harms way and 'expendable' black units were instead assigned to such jobs, then it would again be revealing of the normative level of racism in U.S. culture, and world culture at that time.

Recognize, I'm pointing out the cultutural pattern at that time: That cultural pattern does not necessarily prove anything about these incidents, and I have no idea of the details of these two incidents. Nor does that cultural pattern mean that _all_ people at that time were racist. Quite the contrary, I suspect there were growing numbers of people who consciously if not explicitly rejected traditional racial stereotypes, my Grandmother I think was one of them.

However, there were still a lot of 'average Joes' and 'Sallies' who were otherwise perfectly normal, civil, humane folks, who were nonetheless thoroughly racist.

My Grandfather who served in that war was, to his death--and despite being a generally _good_ man--also an unrepentant racist, and for no logical reasons I could perceive other than that he grew up in that era. My Father who fought in Korea, no better, and in some ways worse.

It was a racist time in American history, where harboring hateful, prejudicial, and dehumanizing views of other people based on their skin-color, ethnicity, race, creed, color were quite normal, and indeed expressing and acting on such views was normalized in many social contexts.

I can't see anything the least bit racist in anything any poster in this thread has said so far.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 5/22/2009 1:38:58 PM >

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 2:44:58 PM   
AirGriff


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Status: offline 		If anything, the comment was a critical acknowledgement of the racism of the era. Let's not cover it up and pretend it didn't happen (like some other places on this Earth where people seem to have no problem throwing stones in glass houses). I'd rather have an open and honest comment like that than let a proverbial elephant romp around the proverbial room.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 2:47:51 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyman662

Deadly 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster remembered

By Herbert A. Sample - The Associated Press
Posted : Thursday May 21, 2009 9:18:53 EDT

HONOLULU — The Navy is commemorating a series of explosions at Pearl Harbor's West Loch on May 21, 1944, that killed 163 servicemen, wounded 396 others and destroyed nine landing ships that were preparing for the invasion of the Marianas Islands.

Four survivors are attending the Thursday ceremony near the site of the explosions, which is in an area off-limits to the public.

The disaster is still not widely known 65 years later.

But even less known is the fact that a nearly all-black Army unit was present where the first explosions rang out.

Even though they were not trained for the task, the 29th Chemical Decontamination Company was ordered to move ammunition on one of the ships. The unit lost 58 soldiers, more than a third of the total casualties from the disaster.

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2009/05/ap_west_loch_disaster_052109/









This must be in a location off the beaten track. Missed it on last visit.


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 3:12:10 PM   
RevRick


Posts: 2617
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From: Thomasville, GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Maybe because you live where such comments were normal, they can more easily be accepted. But I thought things needed to be so PC that more though would go into the comment.

In general, sending anyone into such a situation is asking for a disatser to happen, Black, White, Brown or Yellow. So defining them as "black personnel" is creating a slur (whether intended or not). Identifying them as "personnel loading ammunition without proper training" should have been enough.


Jeff, I just did a research paper on the segregation of the military in the 1920's through the Truman Executive Order in 1947. It is a not a matter of where one lives that made such comments appropriate, but the "When" these events happened that make them appropriate. The fact that the sailors and soldiers in these two incidents were African-American, Black, or whatever identifying nouns you may wish to apply is germane - and also the fact that institutional racism was deeply embedded into the thinking of the country in that era. It was so deeply embedded culturally that most of that minority did not receive education, opportunity, or encouragement to accomplish that which the majority caucasian population took for granted, and were therefore, considered by the military, the government in general (though there were segments that challenged that stereotype) and the population in general, as considerably inferior by nature. The Port Chicago and the Pearl Harbor incidents did involve African-American/Blacks who were pigeon-holed into that type of duty by the racial stereotyping endemic to those times. It was the efforts of some in the Army who wound up, because of shortage of trained replacements following the invasion of Europe, incorporating Blacks into units in the line, and the work of several all black units in Europe which went a long way toward the formal erasing of the color barrier in the Armed Forces. Therefore, I would take Mike's comment as a reply about the history of the times and it's failure to live up the the promise of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution for the freedom of all citizens.

< Message edited by RevRick -- 5/22/2009 3:14:04 PM >

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 4:21:03 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I agree with Rev.

The race of the soldiers or sailors involved in the disaster is absolutely germane because of the obvious analogy to the Port Chicago disaster and the undeniable institutional racism present in the US Armed Forces at the time.

I took Mike's comments as a criticism of such racism and found it to be, in no way racist. It was merely a statement of historical fact. The unit loading the ammo was likely undertrained, through the fault or neglect of their own officers, precisely because they were black.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 4:32:07 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Inadequate training sure does fubar things up, no matter what your melanin level. Have to agree with ‘fault and neglect’ on the part of the officers. But many black units were trained very well. Guess it just depended on the commander, yeah?

49th Arty Bn (Coast) firing 155mm guns as artillery in support of Americal Division on Bougainville. Their conduct and skill was described as exemplary by both MG McClure and MG Griswold. Several black DUKW companys participated in both Leyte and Iwo Jima. In their baptism of fire, they were instrumental in establishing and supplying battery areas for 96th Division on Leyte and the Marines on Iwo, earning commendations from the commanders in both operations. There were many others, but artillery is near and dear to my heart.


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 5:04:41 PM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Inadequate training sure does fubar things up, no matter what your melanin level. Have to agree with ‘fault and neglect’ on the part of the officers. But many black units were trained very well. Guess it just depended on the commander, yeah?

49th Arty Bn (Coast) firing 155mm guns as artillery in support of Americal Division on Bougainville. Their conduct and skill was described as exemplary by both MG McClure and MG Griswold. Several black DUKW companys participated in both Leyte and Iwo Jima. In their baptism of fire, they were instrumental in establishing and supplying battery areas for 96th Division on Leyte and the Marines on Iwo, earning commendations from the commanders in both operations. There were many others, but artillery is near and dear to my heart.



@ Rev, JWE, etc.: IIRC, the U.S. military was really the first segment of American society where African Americans had substantial opportunities, and where desegregation, equanimity and eventual integration all took place. Is my memory in error on this? If not, wasn't there one watershed date in the 1950s where fullscale integration took place by breaking down "Black units?"

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 6:30:04 PM   
JWE

 

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Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
@ Rev, JWE, etc.: IIRC, the U.S. military was really the first segment of American society where African Americans had substantial opportunities, and where desegregation, equanimity and eventual integration all took place. Is my memory in error on this? If not, wasn't there one watershed date in the 1950s where fullscale integration took place by breaking down "Black units?"

Superior black combat units fought in the Revolutionary, Civil, Spanish American, and First wars, and many were integrated to an amazing degree.

I wish I could say this was true in the War-II period, but unfortunately it was not. Black units were segregated and the designation (Colored) was part of their official nomenclature. It wasn’t till Truman’s Executive Order in 1948, that men with deeper tans were able to serve side by side with the more melanin challenged.

I think it was more a recognition of personnel assignment efficiency, than any intent or purpose on the part of the services to promote social integration. But it had the unexpected effect of throwing men together, from different social milieus, where they discovered that they could drink from the same bottle of beer without untoward effects, and ‘Damn! He bleeds red like I do!’. Thoughtful men, whether black, white, yellow or red, came to some damn appropriate conclusions as a result of this exposure.


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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 6:38:34 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
@ Rev, JWE, etc.: IIRC, the U.S. military was really the first segment of American society where African Americans had substantial opportunities, and where desegregation, equanimity and eventual integration all took place. Is my memory in error on this? If not, wasn't there one watershed date in the 1950s where fullscale integration took place by breaking down "Black units?"

Superior black combat units fought in the Revolutionary, Civil, Spanish American, and First wars, and many were integrated to an amazing degree.

I wish I could say this was true in the War-II period, but unfortunately it was not. Black units were segregated and the designation (Colored) was part of their official nomenclature. It wasn’t till Truman’s Executive Order in 1948, that men with deeper tans were able to serve side by side with the more melanin challenged.


Ah yes, Truman's 1948 was what I was half remembering. Interesting that things seem to get a bit worse in the WWII period before they eventually started to get better.

quote:

I think it was more a recognition of personnel assignment efficiency, than any intent or purpose on the part of the services to promote social integration. But it had the unexpected effect of throwing men together, from different social milieus, where they discovered that they could drink from the same bottle of beer without untoward effects, and ‘Damn! He bleeds red like I do!’. Thoughtful men, whether black, white, yellow or red, came to some damn appropriate conclusions as a result of this exposure.


And still, there were men like my father, who rose to the rank of Chief Petty Officer, as a gunner on a Destroyer during the Korean War. A man who used the N word with impunity, and hubris, and who professed to hating/distrusting/dehumanizing "them" till the last day he had the unwarranted privilege to draw breath . . .

Even today with a "black" President, I have no doubt that small, semi-covert, but resistant and unrepentant bastions of pure explicit racism persist in our society. How these pockets of hatred can be fully and finally eradicated from a society in which a trend toward equality is so clear and definite I cannot fathom. I guess it is one of the unexpected foibles of a democracy that everyone can think what they want.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 6:41:05 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
@ Rev, JWE, etc.: IIRC, the U.S. military was really the first segment of American society where African Americans had substantial opportunities, and where desegregation, equanimity and eventual integration all took place. Is my memory in error on this? If not, wasn't there one watershed date in the 1950s where fullscale integration took place by breaking down "Black units?"

Superior black combat units fought in the Revolutionary, Civil, Spanish American, and First wars, and many were integrated to an amazing degree.

I wish I could say this was true in the War-II period, but unfortunately it was not. Black units were segregated and the designation (Colored) was part of their official nomenclature. It wasn’t till Truman’s Executive Order in 1948, that men with deeper tans were able to serve side by side with the more melanin challenged.

I think it was more a recognition of personnel assignment efficiency, than any intent or purpose on the part of the services to promote social integration. But it had the unexpected effect of throwing men together, from different social milieus, where they discovered that they could drink from the same bottle of beer without untoward effects, and ‘Damn! He bleeds red like I do!’. Thoughtful men, whether black, white, yellow or red, came to some damn appropriate conclusions as a result of this exposure.




IIRC the 10th N.Y. Rgt on the flank of the Rough Riders at San Juan Hill were black.

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RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 6:45:46 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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Status: offline 		There are "pockets" of racism in every society and in every place and you cannot eradicate ignorance or meanness totally (though education and exposure to others helps), but my experience as a lifelong Southerner working in the rural South among old-fashioned rural folks of all kinds is that the vast majority of white people have neutral or positive attitudes towards black people.  I see very, very little racism or bigotry today.

Of course, if I'm a black person and 100 people are nice to me and one person is a jerk, it's the latter's conduct that will stand out in my mind.

In the most recent presidential election, most of our Southern states voted for McCain rather than Obama.  There were knowing nods among the "elite" in the press that this was due to racism.  It wasn't.  Most of the conservatives I knew had opposed McCain in the primary and were most interested in the possibility that Condoleeza Rice (a black female) might seek a high position.

In my county, which is 90% white, we've had a black man run for the county commission three or four times.  He's won easily every time.  Why?  Because he's a good man who is widely respected in the county.   His race is irrelevant to most people. 

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Post #: 21
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 6:49:15 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		As far as I could find, there was no 10th New York in action during that war. However, the 24th and 25th US Infantry and 9th and 10th US Cavalry regiments, all negro units, fought with distinction. The 10th Cavalry was the unit famously known as the "Buffalo Soldiers" whilst fighting Indians.

So, I've said "negro" and "indian", rather than "African-American" and "Native American". What a horrible racist I must be...

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Post #: 22
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 6:57:08 PM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

As far as I could find, there was no 10th New York in action during that war. However, the 24th and 25th US Infantry and 9th and 10th US Cavalry regiments, all negro units, fought with distinction. The 10th Cavalry was the unit famously known as the "Buffalo Soldiers" whilst fighting Indians.

So, I've said "negro" and "indian", rather than "African-American" and "Native American". What a horrible racist I must be...



Here ya' go compadre..

http://www.history.army.mil/documents/spanam/bssjh/shbrt-bssjh.htm

(Dunno why I thought they were from New York)..Hey....I got the battle right, gimme a break Toeminus......

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Post #: 23
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 6:59:47 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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Status: offline 		Anybody say "toe"?

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Post #: 24
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 7:03:40 PM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Anybody say "toe"?



Fine tuned mind and fleet of feet....

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Post #: 25
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 7:12:07 PM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
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From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Maybe because you live where such comments were normal, they can more easily be accepted. But I thought things needed to be so PC that more though would go into the comment.

In general, sending anyone into such a situation is asking for a disatser to happen, Black, White, Brown or Yellow. So defining them as "black personnel" is creating a slur (whether intended or not). Identifying them as "personnel loading ammunition without proper training" should have been enough.

it's idiots like you that try to make everything a racial comment.

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Post #: 26
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 7:26:22 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
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Status: offline 		Easy compadres - bof a ya. Bob's right because it was the 10th, Terminus is right because it was Cavalry, and we're all right because it was THOSE magnificent ba$tards that took Kettle Hill. Don't let the PC worm squirm in your guts - it's an intestinal parasite.

Only point is that black soldiers were the equals of lighter colored ones, and any disasters or failures, in which black units were involved, were the result of improper or insufficient training, or command negligence/fault.

Ok, said my piece.

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Post #: 27
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 7:35:47 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


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Status: offline 		Comments removed in the hope of peace and harmony

< Message edited by Wirraway_Ace -- 5/22/2009 8:20:24 PM >

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 28
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 7:36:54 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 29
RE: Navy commemorating 1944 Pearl Harbor disaster - 5/22/2009 7:43:21 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Maybe because you live where such comments were normal, they can more easily be accepted. But I thought things needed to be so PC that more though would go into the comment.

In general, sending anyone into such a situation is asking for a disatser to happen, Black, White, Brown or Yellow. So defining them as "black personnel" is creating a slur (whether intended or not). Identifying them as "personnel loading ammunition without proper training" should have been enough.

it's idiots like you that try to make everything a racial comment.

Stop! stop! Please stop!

This is a rare opportunity to acknowledge the contributions of non-white soldiers to the Pacific War. Please do not get tangled up in ya'lls shorts over some PC sensitive word or phrase. Lots of folks come from other countries that don't recognize the rules of the US PC Police. This is such an important topic and I don't want it locked. Please, back off, and lay back.



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(in reply to bobogoboom)
Post #: 30
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