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Should I wait for AE?

 
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Should I wait for AE? - 5/28/2009 3:57:08 PM   
BAR


Posts: 49
Joined: 5/15/2000
Status: offline 		Hi all, I have been interested in WiTP for a little while now and am wondering if I should wait for the AE Release and purchase the Digital DL & Physical Shipment then, or jump in now. Will AE be a separate add-on that must be purchased? From Erik's post about waiting on the new manual with the new printers I am inclined to wait for the AE release but am of course eager to try this game out. Has any demo version of WiTP ever been released? Have searched for one with no luck. Am hoping that after spending $80.00 on a game I find that it not really my cup of tea and playing a few turns on a demo might help me decide. Have been a fan of the Steel Panther's series since they came out and also The Operational Art of War as well, but this looks like a major step up wargaming from those 2 games. Just hoping that that it is something I will enjoy. Take care - BAR
Post #: 1
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/28/2009 4:11:52 PM   
Roger Neilson II


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: Newcastle upon Tyne. England
Status: offline 		The rumour has it that WIPT AE will be a lot more complex than WITP..... so I do think a knowledge of WITP is a good starting point, the learning curve my be a little less like a a toddler trying to climb Everest!

If you are not sure then read some of the more straightforward AARs - the more zany ones may confuse you more!

You will need WITP and then purchase AE, kits an 'add -on'.

I came to it via Steel Panthers along time ago, it is more or less the only game for me nowadays.

Roger

_____________________________


(in reply to BAR)
Post #: 2
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/28/2009 4:38:09 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BAR
Am hoping that after spending $80.00 on a game I find that it not really my cup of tea and playing a few turns on a demo might help me decide.


You would have to take the plunge, as there don't exist a demo for WitP. The gameplay is hardly comparable with anything but former 2by3 titles (UV, 12 'o' clock). However, if you have the patience for larger TOAW scenarios, you probably won't struggly with this game.

So if you're not sure yet but feel tempted anyway, rather pick WitP now and use the remaining weeks till AE release for learning the game. This is more reasonable than utilizing a possible bundle discount and subsequently realizing that you don't like it.

(in reply to BAR)
Post #: 3
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/28/2009 4:46:36 PM   
rhohltjr


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

The rumour has it that WIPT AE will be a lot more complex than WITP..... so I do think a knowledge of WITP is a good starting point, the learning curve my be a little less like a a toddler trying to climb Everest!

Roger


I agree. Also, know that you are not forced to micromanage everything in Witp (unless you really enjoy micromanaging)
The zones of control make the whole experience easier to grasp IMO. The Witp AI didn't really do very well for me running it's assigned zones,
but overall, I like AI. Good thing is that AE is giving Witp a much needed AI boost.
There is a current ongoing AAR with an AE tester vs the AI.





< Message edited by rhohltjr -- 5/28/2009 4:47:44 PM >

_____________________________

My e-troops don't unload OVER THE BEACH anymore, see:
Amphibious Assault at Kota Bharu
TF 85 troops securing a beachhead at Kota Bharu, 51,75
whew! I still feel better.

(in reply to Roger Neilson II)
Post #: 4
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/28/2009 8:29:32 PM   
TalonCG2


Posts: 95
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		One point I'm not sure you understand from your post is that AE is gonna be an expansion of WITP. In order for AE to work you MUST have WITP. So take the plunge and buy WITP or there is no point in waiting for AE in the first place. Without WITP you won't be able to play AE.

You won't be disappointed. It can be intimidating at first, but it is hugely entertaining and very satisfying.

(in reply to rhohltjr)
Post #: 5
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/28/2009 8:37:45 PM   
Durbik


Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline 		... and frustrating, and addictive, and time-eating, and wife-angrying, and blissful...

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obey the fist!

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Post #: 6
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/28/2009 9:35:43 PM   
kfmiller41


Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Durbik

... and frustrating, and addictive, and time-eating, and wife-angrying, and blissful...

Reading my mind to a T

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You have the ability to arouse various emotions in me: please select carefully.

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Post #: 7
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 4:50:34 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		I wouldn't buy WITP to just learn the game, as you can't be assured AE will make it any more delectable. To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort. Now if you can get AE and WITP together, for the price of the original WITP, that might be a worthy gamble, but I am saying that with the anticipation that AE will improve, particularly the bugs and AI, some 75% of the game. There is of course the idea that you can get the two games together in a package that would save you money, as opposed to how most of us guys have already bought WITP full price.

(in reply to kfmiller41)
Post #: 8
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 6:30:42 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline
quote:

It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort.

Maybe that was true four years ago, but multiple patches have stomped most of the major bugs. I've just finished an entire grand campaign against the AI, and I didn't encounter any significant bugs at all.

_____________________________


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Post #: 9
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 7:01:22 AM   
Roger Neilson II


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: Newcastle upon Tyne. England
Status: offline 		What's the source for this idea that buying the two together will be cheaper? Wishful thinking?

Roger

_____________________________


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Post #: 10
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 7:21:25 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BAR

Hi all, I have been interested in WiTP for a little while now and am wondering if I should wait for the AE Release and purchase the Digital DL & Physical Shipment then, or jump in now. Will AE be a separate add-on that must be purchased? From Erik's post about waiting on the new manual with the new printers I am inclined to wait for the AE release but am of course eager to try this game out. Has any demo version of WiTP ever been released? Have searched for one with no luck. Am hoping that after spending $80.00 on a game I find that it not really my cup of tea and playing a few turns on a demo might help me decide. Have been a fan of the Steel Panther's series since they came out and also The Operational Art of War as well, but this looks like a major step up wargaming from those 2 games. Just hoping that that it is something I will enjoy. Take care - BAR


I have played just about every TOAW scenario there is. And HOI2, etc. WiTP tops the list imo. But of course it's a matter of personal taste.


_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley


(in reply to BAR)
Post #: 11
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 8:28:37 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		This is no demo but, you can still fine cheap copies of Uncommon Valor at Amazon.com or ebay. If you don't like UV then WITP or AE may not be for you.

No other wargame ever made lets you fight a war covering over half the world with this level of detail that's WITP! AE expands on this with even more detail. AE is the super die hard grognard edition, WITP is just the tutorial and trainer for AE.


(in reply to stuman)
Post #: 12
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 11:04:54 AM   
Flying Tiger

 

Posts: 496
Joined: 3/11/2008
From: ummmm... i HATE that question!
Status: offline
quote:

To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort.


I think you're on your own here Charles. For me, and i know for most others on this forum, WitP has been easily the BEST value for $$ of any game i have ever shelled out cash for. Curious to hear though, exactly what bugs were you struggling with?

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 13
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 11:52:14 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: BAR

Hi all, I have been interested in WiTP for a little while now and am wondering if I should wait for the AE Release and purchase the Digital DL & Physical Shipment then, or jump in now. Will AE be a separate add-on that must be purchased? From Erik's post about waiting on the new manual with the new printers I am inclined to wait for the AE release but am of course eager to try this game out. Has any demo version of WiTP ever been released? Have searched for one with no luck. Am hoping that after spending $80.00 on a game I find that it not really my cup of tea and playing a few turns on a demo might help me decide. Have been a fan of the Steel Panther's series since they came out and also The Operational Art of War as well, but this looks like a major step up wargaming from those 2 games. Just hoping that that it is something I will enjoy. Take care - BAR


In order to run WitP-AE you have to have WitP (i.e. the "AE" is add-on)!

Will there be any discount for buying WitP + WitP-AE we still don't know... this is the only thing that can prevent you for buying WitP right now...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to BAR)
Post #: 14
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 12:09:44 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		"To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort"




Gosh, Charles........that is a very rare comment.......Have you been aware of the patches, or did you move on to another game?

Just curious....(Your opinion is valued, and respected, albeit as rare as ice cream in the Mohave?)

_____________________________




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Post #: 15
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 1:57:06 PM   
ChickenOfTheSea


Posts: 579
Joined: 6/7/2008
From: Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

"To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort"




Gosh, Charles........that is a very rare comment.......Have you been aware of the patches, or did you move on to another game?

Just curious....(Your opinion is valued, and respected, albeit as rare as ice cream in the Mohave?)


I think he must be talking about the early stages of the game. I felt the same way, myself, early on. However, I came back about 18 months ago to discover all the patching and the mods that the community had created and it has been a great time. I'm really looking forward to AE. For anyone who gave up on the original WITP, I strongly encourage you to come back and take another look.

_____________________________

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. - Manfred Eigen

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 16
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 6:10:43 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I wouldn't buy WITP to just learn the game, as you can't be assured AE will make it any more delectable. To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort. Now if you can get AE and WITP together, for the price of the original WITP, that might be a worthy gamble, but I am saying that with the anticipation that AE will improve, particularly the bugs and AI, some 75% of the game. There is of course the idea that you can get the two games together in a package that would save you money, as opposed to how most of us guys have already bought WITP full price.


What game is this guy talking about, this is not the WitP that I know, and Love. This has got to be a wind-up, who dose he think he is running our game down... shame on you.


_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 17
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 8:31:10 PM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

2

I am the other side of the coin in that i played WitP against the AI from the release date in04 till about a month ago. I found that there is to much micromanagement for me to deal with. I am just barely able to keep ahead of the AI now which to some vets here sounds laughable.
I have a love of the history of the Pacific war but the turns are to long, to much to do and I have to play daily turns to have a chance. I am not a dumb person by any streach but I just can't manage this game.
AE will add a better AI but also more micromanagement like port capacity, ,and unloading, a larger map amnd many new and great improvements but its to much for me.
Just reading some of the detailed posts here about both games can loose me.

I would say buy the original WitP and up date it. If you like playing it and have the time and can handle the learning curve then AE is for you.....if not like me just save your money. I plan on playing WitP after the release of AE as support if the original is promised at least for awhile,

Good luck from one who has not made the grade or had the time to play the game even against the AI.

Madgamer

(in reply to BAR)
Post #: 18
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/29/2009 11:31:09 PM   
Charbroiled


Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer

quote:

2

I am the other side of the coin in that i played WitP against the AI from the release date in04 till about a month ago. I found that there is to much micromanagement for me to deal with. I am just barely able to keep ahead of the AI now which to some vets here sounds laughable.
I have a love of the history of the Pacific war but the turns are to long, to much to do and I have to play daily turns to have a chance. I am not a dumb person by any streach but I just can't manage this game.
AE will add a better AI but also more micromanagement like port capacity, ,and unloading, a larger map amnd many new and great improvements but its to much for me.
Just reading some of the detailed posts here about both games can loose me.

I would say buy the original WitP and up date it. If you like playing it and have the time and can handle the learning curve then AE is for you.....if not like me just save your money. I plan on playing WitP after the release of AE as support if the original is promised at least for awhile,

Good luck from one who has not made the grade or had the time to play the game even against the AI.

Madgamer


For me, the key is to not worry about every little detail. Concentrate on the big things like invasions or on the front lines, but don't worry that the ship loading oil was full 3 days ago and I forgot to send it to Japan. Stuff like this isn't going to hurt you in the long run.

_____________________________

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Post #: 19
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/30/2009 1:16:10 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

What's the source for this idea that buying the two together will be cheaper? Wishful thinking?

Roger

It's not an uncommon practice, especially since the expansion will probably be none too cheap and will require an original which is expensive. Just a guess was all that was.

(in reply to Roger Neilson II)
Post #: 20
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/30/2009 1:36:50 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger

quote:

To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort.


I think you're on your own here Charles. For me, and i know for most others on this forum, WitP has been easily the BEST value for $$ of any game i have ever shelled out cash for. Curious to hear though, exactly what bugs were you struggling with?

Well some aren't technically bugs, like 4E's having the anti-shipping abilities of 2E's, but I don't want to re-hash all that disturbed me. In fact, I probably couldn't remember them all, I just know for my own case I had seen enough to make it not worth my time. And, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if I was the lone one expressing opinion similar to mine, though I have heard a great many complaints. Completely healthy air groups randomly splitting into different places, AI-led KB being a sitting duck; don't even get me started. Others play past the deficiencies, but the Pacific theatre and the very long nature of this game combined (and the game being very quickly one-sided - well that's just how it was), added to make the decision to cast it aside so much easier. I might put up with this sort of error and sloppiness on an Eastern Front game, but certainly not the much more boring PacWar. Price too pays a factor. I just think an $80 game, no matter how complex, should be more playable; just a general rule of thumb. Yeah, I know, everybody and their dog disagrees. That's not surprising again.

It seems there's a high ratio of guys willing to forgive Pacific theatre problems simply because they're a lot more desperate for a game than East Front afficinadoes are (it's the best they got is what I keep hearing). I'm very much on the fence with AE, as it's either something to make WITP playable in my view, or it's something to add to my shame of spending so much on a game that even historically was so one-sided.

(in reply to Flying Tiger)
Post #: 21
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/30/2009 2:16:05 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

"To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort"




Gosh, Charles........that is a very rare comment.......Have you been aware of the patches, or did you move on to another game?

Just curious....(Your opinion is valued, and respected, albeit as rare as ice cream in the Mohave?)

You do tire of bringing your point of view out when so few even attempt to see that view. I just tire of vacant responses, so I get bored. As well, though this is the dominant forum at Matrix, my interest does wane when it's about a game I'm basically not playing, and keep hoping a patch arrived that fixes my more serious issues. Maybe if I buy AE I will increase my traffic, or better yet, when WIR II comes out?

I got every single patch, but then I believe in playing stock, which it seems so many abandoned. I saw nothing in this forum to suggest any of my "remaining" problems were corrected, apart from the usual house rule suggestion, which of course does nothing in so many situations (such as healthy air groups splitting into three parts of the map - not "all" healthy air groups of course), but the ASW system being basically fixed was encouraging.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 22
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/30/2009 2:18:36 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I wouldn't buy WITP to just learn the game, as you can't be assured AE will make it any more delectable. To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort. Now if you can get AE and WITP together, for the price of the original WITP, that might be a worthy gamble, but I am saying that with the anticipation that AE will improve, particularly the bugs and AI, some 75% of the game. There is of course the idea that you can get the two games together in a package that would save you money, as opposed to how most of us guys have already bought WITP full price.


What game is this guy talking about, this is not the WitP that I know, and Love. This has got to be a wind-up, who dose he think he is running our game down... shame on you.


Im sorry, I didn't know the OP only wanted opinions which were already predetermined to get him to buy the game.

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 23
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/30/2009 1:39:16 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I wouldn't buy WITP to just learn the game, as you can't be assured AE will make it any more delectable. To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort. Now if you can get AE and WITP together, for the price of the original WITP, that might be a worthy gamble, but I am saying that with the anticipation that AE will improve, particularly the bugs and AI, some 75% of the game. There is of course the idea that you can get the two games together in a package that would save you money, as opposed to how most of us guys have already bought WITP full price.


What game is this guy talking about, this is not the WitP that I know, and Love. This has got to be a wind-up, who dose he think he is running our game down... shame on you.


Im sorry, I didn't know the OP only wanted opinions which were already predetermined to get him to buy the game.



Perhaps I’ve been a bit harsh, but if you had war-gamed this theater on the living-room floor for thirty five years you would appreciate this game the way I do.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 24
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/30/2009 3:07:14 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I wouldn't buy WITP to just learn the game, as you can't be assured AE will make it any more delectable. To me, WITP was some of the worst money per useage I have spent on games, and I have a good experience in the grognard side of things. It was just too buggy for me to take a serious effort. Now if you can get AE and WITP together, for the price of the original WITP, that might be a worthy gamble, but I am saying that with the anticipation that AE will improve, particularly the bugs and AI, some 75% of the game. There is of course the idea that you can get the two games together in a package that would save you money, as opposed to how most of us guys have already bought WITP full price.


What game is this guy talking about, this is not the WitP that I know, and Love. This has got to be a wind-up, who dose he think he is running our game down... shame on you.


Im sorry, I didn't know the OP only wanted opinions which were already predetermined to get him to buy the game.



Perhaps I’ve been a bit harsh, but if you had war-gamed this theater on the living-room floor for thirty five years you would appreciate this game the way I do.

I did play Pacific War in the old days, but then I have the appreciation of most anything computerized, and had it not been for computers I would never had got into wargaming. I had my two board game moments before computers came about, and saw that remembering all the rules was impossible. My brother thought he was willing to play those board games with me, but that also required me teaching him, and as I didn't know it, there was no point.

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 25
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/31/2009 2:16:54 PM   
BAR


Posts: 49
Joined: 5/15/2000
Status: offline 		Thanks for all of the input guys. Am currently out of work for the next few months after surgery to repair my biceps tendon so I will have plenty of time to get down & dirty with all of the game's details, but am currently limited to only 1 arms usage lol. Gotta figure a way to get my cast set so I can plop it up on the table to help with the keyboard.

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 26
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/31/2009 2:41:47 PM   
grraven2004


Posts: 273
Joined: 3/4/2004
From: Cuyahoga Falls OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BAR

Thanks for all of the input guys. Am currently out of work for the next few months after surgery to repair my biceps tendon so I will have plenty of time to get down & dirty with all of the game's details, but am currently limited to only 1 arms usage lol. Gotta figure a way to get my cast set so I can plop it up on the table to help with the keyboard.


BAR, Lucky for you this game doesn't need two arms really. This is a very easy point and click game. I play it on the laptop with the pad and do just fine with it. You should be able to keep that arm rested. Only serious problem you might have is drinking your beverage of choice and playing. I would suggest you stop just long enough to take a sip.

_____________________________

Human by birth

Klingon By choice!

Sig changed per Erik's request

(in reply to BAR)
Post #: 27
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/31/2009 5:33:12 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		One Word: Straws.

Been in rehab, Straws are key for beveraging under those conditions.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 28
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/31/2009 9:00:35 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: grraven2004


quote:

ORIGINAL: BAR

Thanks for all of the input guys. Am currently out of work for the next few months after surgery to repair my biceps tendon so I will have plenty of time to get down & dirty with all of the game's details, but am currently limited to only 1 arms usage lol. Gotta figure a way to get my cast set so I can plop it up on the table to help with the keyboard.


BAR, Lucky for you this game doesn't need two arms really. This is a very easy point and click game. I play it on the laptop with the pad and do just fine with it. You should be able to keep that arm rested. Only serious problem you might have is drinking your beverage of choice and playing. I would suggest you stop just long enough to take a sip.

But what if it's his right arm, and his mouse is right-handed? We may have a butter side down situation here.

(in reply to grraven2004)
Post #: 29
RE: Should I wait for AE? - 5/31/2009 10:30:29 PM   
BAR


Posts: 49
Joined: 5/15/2000
Status: offline 		Fortunately it is the left arm in the sling and I am right-handed. Now just have to squeeze in some time to DL the game between the sponge baths. My GF has been very accomodating in that department

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 30
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