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Consideration of a Courage Rating

 
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Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/28/2009 11:35:05 PM   
miral

 

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While writing in another thread, this occured to me. Should there be a unit rating for courage, in some or most wargames? Yes, it can be aruged that this is included, in an abstract way in such ratings as efficiency, morale ect. But courage does not correlate tightly with these; warriors have fought with great courage when they were grossly inefficient (Celtic armies vs. Romans), and when they had no expectation of victory or survival (Japanese in WWII). This arose as I was considering the Zulu victory at Islawanda. When I was in school in 1970 we were taught that the British had a cockup in ammunition distribution and this led to their defeat. Now it is argued that this was an excuse for how 1,000 Brits with powerful rifles were annihilated by only 4,000 Zulus with short stabbing spears.

If this is too long please change channel.

{{Long digression - skip to end of brackets if you don't care. For a fascinating account of this battle and nine more see Victor Hanson's Carnage and Culture (or Culture and Carnage, can never remember which order). These are all battles between armies from nations within Western Civilization vs. armies from other civs. Hanson is a controversial military historian who writes wonderfully well. He first came to prominence 30 yrs ago with his books on warfare in Classical Greece (his speciality). His main thesis is that Western armies are the best in the world because they fight the way the Greeks did, for all out victory. At Islawanda the British should have been able to shoot down the Zulu attack with just the few rounds each soldier was carrying; if each Brit fired only 10 shots that is 40,000 bullets flying around, a lot of lead. And, indeed, the Zulus took severe casualties. The same attack by a Western army would probably have been repulsed. But the Zulus did not stop. They came on with an extraordinary show of raw courage, closed with the British, and then their numbers were decisive. Hanson includes this one to show that Western victory is by no means inevitable.

If you really want to ready something mind altering see his chapter on Cortez's Conquest of Mexico, Stalingrad in the Valley of Mexico. Interesting facts. One Aztec Emperor, to celebrate his coronation, had hundreds of altars set up for human sacrifice and ran an assembly slaughter for weeks. Hanson calculates that, day for the day, the killing rate was greater than at Auschwitz. The Aztec priests wore the flayed skin of their victims; the Spanish thought them devils from hell. The largest dog in Mexico was a chichuawa (SP?). The Spanish went into battle with huge, vicious war-mastifs, trained from birth to fight and kill in war. The Aztecs thought them demons from hell. In the final battle Cortez reduced Tenoctitlan block by block. The dead were somewhere around a quarter of a million. It is very remininescent of the German-Russian WWII. The Aztecs were a nation of murderous, genocidal fiends (it has been estimated that if you were one of their subject peoples and had 4 children, the chances of one of them being taken to have her heart ripped out while she was alive was close to 100%. But in the Conquistadors they met a people even meaner and more savage than they. And I lot more effective.}}

Now, my point and I did have one. Would it not be realistic to rate units, in some games at least, for their courage seeing that this quality is, to a good degree, independent of all others? I can think of some of the objections now. Would this rating not be arbitrary? Yes, but so are all the others ways in which units are rated. We can all agree that in WWII German units were more efficient than Italian, but how much more. x2, x8, x10? A better argument against is that are not the peoples of all states, polities ect about equally brave and the differences in battle show up because of differences in equipment, training, leadership ect.?

Yes, but let us remember that amazing Zulu charge. It would have been as if Pickett had reached Cemetary Hill, breached the Union lines and annihilated the enemy. I come down on the side that there are specific peoples and armies at specific times in history who have greater courage than most and that this is an element that should be incorporated into wargames. Comments invited.

Thanks
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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 12:00:20 AM   
miral

 

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i am a world class mathematician. 10 x 1,000+ 10,000, not 40,000. Nonetheless the point remains valid. I am wrong in another fact, pointed out to me on another thread. There were 4,000 Zulus at Roarkes Drift, which I now remembered, - confused the two. My corrector says 15-18k Zulus at Islawanda but that seems a deal too high. I find 8-10k more approximately correct. Still, I hold to my argument that the Zulus victory was a memorable military accomplish, driven home by pure courage.

thanks

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 12:33:46 AM   
Perturabo


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I really miss the courage factor when playing games from Close Combat series. They are good for relatively sane people, but when it comes to things like human wave attacks, it fails completely due to lack of simulation of insane courage and lack respect for one's life.

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 3:33:19 AM   
Silverdog

 

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I’m all for people having opinions on want happened in history. But I don’t like opinions based on bogus history you may have read somewhere, which in your case involves ‘guessing’ at the number of combatants involved. The battle you refer to in your post is the ‘Battle of Isandlwana’, not as you call it the 'battle at Islawanda'. And the subsequent battle was at Rorke’s Drift. Please go and research these battles properly before using it in any opinion you may have.

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 5:33:02 AM   
Obsolete


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I have always assumed bravery to be part of the Morale rating.  It may not be responsible for 100% of morale, but is a part of it.  One thing I thought was interesting with Civil War General I & II, was that despite your organization and health, etc. dropped after a wave of attack, your morale would go up (if victorious).  Of course.. if you lost well... then everything went down.

Get your morale up high enough and you could activate a bunch of Charges, since your men were much more brave.  So, often you'd be able to take a small weak division and have them brave enough to slam into a much stronger one.  Of course, far more charges are done in the game than ever happened in the entire civil war. 




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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 6:38:13 AM   
JudgeDredd


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This is the second post I've found of late which uses someones "preferred" source and uses it to bolster the posters opinion or, indeed, simply put their opinion across in such a way that it comes across as "So and so said this, I believe him...that's it" - no attempt at discussion or opening it up as such. You probably didn't mean it to come across like this. The other post I am referring to certainly did come across like this in a big way (see the persons post on why the German Army were crap or some such title in the Commander Europe at War forum).

Might I suggest in future that if you are going to read a book and you enjoy it to the extent that you obviously did, that you open with a debate. Recently, I pointed out in the Forge of Freedom forum that I was reading a book on the ACW. I suggested that the book was great and that in the first few chapters the book portrayed several things, namely that the South had better commanders and could've won the war. But I didn't put this across by saying "I've read this book and basically the South had better leaders and could've won the war - it says so in my book"....rather I said "I've read this book and basically the author suggests that the South had better leaders and could've won the war has anyone got opinions on this

A big difference in how the point is made. It does irk me when people read a particular book (set of books) or listen to a historian (or several historians) and take it as fact! Hindsight is a great thing and historians sometimes use it well.

Regarding Isandwala, perhaps there were a lot of wasted bullets and it's very astute of the historian in question to say "If the British made every bullet count, the Zulu would never have gotten near them"...unfortunately a target standing still, for you average soldier (forget the fact that training and accuracy have increased over the years) it's very difficult to hit a target at 500 yards or more. Make that target move, throw in some waving spears, war cries and add in the pucker factor and I suggest a lot of bullets wouldn't be hitting at 100 yards, let alone 500! And if that is the case, try stopping xx,xxx Zulu Warriors then!

You only have to watch some of these documentaries on Afghanistan. Lead flying everywhere...1,000lbs bombs being dropped and there maybe two or three dead or injured (in both sides) regardless. Flying lead doesn't mean carnage. Accurate flying lead could - but it's not a given

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 5/29/2009 6:41:45 AM >

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 1:15:06 PM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

A big difference in how the point is made. It does irk me when people read a particular book (set of books) or listen to a historian (or several historians) and take it as fact! Hindsight is a great thing and historians sometimes use it well.


Unless it’s a Rolling Stone beat writer

Go figure ...........


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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 1:40:22 PM   
JudgeDredd


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aaaaaahahahahahahahaha...good try Sarge.

I don't know where you will find I said it was fact?? If you want to quote here, I'll eat my humble pie. What I was saying was that I heard the marines themselves had given it the thumbs up. I also pointed out that it wasn't given the thumbs up by ALL the marines.

Nevermind - I'll quote it.
quote:

JudgeDredd
I read that the series was given acclaim by the members of the unit? Go figure.

Note, I'm not suggesting ALL members of the unit thought it was a faithful representation.

Where was I suggesting it was fact? I'm really cross with you Sarge, making me waste 5 minutes to go and get that quote....

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 4:21:52 PM   
Obsolete


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And thank you for wasting my time by getting me to read another thread just to see something of interest.  Interesting indeed, I didn't realize Rommel had no understanding of logistics.  In fact, that makes me too scared to even look and see how low this slides General Zhukov down on the totem-pole.  I'm sure there is at least one writer out there (self-published?) who is a self-proclaimed history expert and will tell you the man was the #1 village idiot in all of Russia.

Now, back to the bravery thing.  I suppose you could could have a game where Bravery is seperate from Morale, but these two are so intertwined I just don't really see the point.  The wargame market is no where near flooded to the point where we need such crazy gimmicks to sell a title.




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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 6:07:41 PM   
miral

 

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Re the criticisms.

Bad spelling does not viatiate an argument.
These forums are not places for scholarly papers, with foot notes, bibiographies ect. I was merely suggesting an interesting title I thought many people would find fascinating (from a very important military historian). I was not demanding anyone adhere to my opinion, just expressing my own. And ALL historians are influenced by hindsight. How could one not be? Do you somehow forget that you know the outcome and a deal that happened that the participants could not know?

As to my other post on the German generals, I am being misrepresented and distorted here. I never said they were crap. I said they were brilliant tacticians and operational masters, but very very bad at strategy. And that opinion was based not on one author but many, particularly, the historians of the multi-vol Germany and the Second World War, who include most of the prominent contemporary German military historians. Also, I wrote a couple of long posts on this, quoting authors and developing arguments. Again, not meant to be a scholarly paper, but surely not as shallow as represented here. The replies were brief and with few to no references. So I find it peculiar that I am got on for shallowness of argument.

Nonetheless, everyone has a right to an opinion. I would simply suggest that, in future, since you find my posts that bad and/or irritating, don't read them. Others may find the books mentioned worth reading (if they have not already read them; I am not suggesting that I discovered these books and authors) and the arguments worth considering, whether they agree with them or not.

Thanks


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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 7:17:33 PM   
Obsolete


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"Bad spelling does not viatiate an argument." [sic]

Perhaps you mean "vitiate".  


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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 7:57:53 PM   
miral

 

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Bad spelling of vitiate does not vitiate an argument. Thanks, I don't mind being corrected. How else am I to spell it correctly next time.

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 8:07:18 PM   
Obsolete


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Well, to get back on topic, your original question about having courage as a seperate factor does sound like it could be interesting.  But HOW would you model it?  How would it be so different from the current morale mechanics in current games?





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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 8:30:50 PM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: miral

Re the criticisms.

...

As to my other post on the German generals, I am being misrepresented and distorted here. I never said they were crap. I said they were brilliant tacticians and operational masters, but very very bad at strategy. And that opinion was based not on one author but many, particularly, the historians of the multi-vol Germany and the Second World War, who include most of the prominent contemporary German military historians. Also, I wrote a couple of long posts on this, quoting authors and developing arguments. Again, not meant to be a scholarly paper, but surely not as shallow as represented here. The replies were brief and with few to no references. So I find it peculiar that I am got on for shallowness of argument.

...

I didn't mean to misrepresent your post. Your other post was entitled "Why the Germans were Strategic Idiots" then you went on to spout your favoured historians. So you know they were "...very, very bad at strategy" because you read a book? Excellent. It wasn't shallowness of argument that kicked me in the arse when I read your post...it was the arrogance of it...to suggest that your opinion is right and they were "strategic idiots" because you read a book and they said so!! And the post I read was not asking for input or counter argument....you were stating fact!

Personally I think it's pretty rich for a few historians to come up with such a title...but then they didn't, you (presumably a self professed strategic genius?) did. What I'm trying to say is whilst there may well be argument in the book you read and it may well make sense the title of your post was rather inflammatory and unless you have experience in the field it seems rather strange that such a strong opinion can be dished out...quite arrogant imo. And you called all Germans strategic idiots....not "Why Some German were Strategic Idiots" and even that, without experience in the field, is rather insulting...imo.

As for this...
quote:


Nonetheless, everyone has a right to an opinion. I would simply suggest that, in future, since you find my posts that bad and/or irritating, don't read them. Others may find the books mentioned worth reading (if they have not already read them; I am not suggesting that I discovered these books and authors) and the arguments worth considering, whether they agree with them or not.


Thanks...I'll take your advice. Personally, I found your post insulting and inflammatory. And by the way, whilst I am on about my opinion and how I found your post insulting, that's taking into account that I know nothing about the German strategic ability, current or historically...clearly you are at the other end of the scale....people who do know about it and disagree with your statement are presumably included in your topic title.

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/29/2009 9:24:03 PM   
miral

 

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Oh, so it was the title of my post that really got your dander up. Look, I am not putting myself forth as a strategic genius or I know better than you. I may be wrong, goodness knows I have been before. I don't KNOW that the Germans were very, very bad at strategy, it is just my opinion based, not on A book, but on a number of books by leading military historians, many of them German. My intent was not to be arrogant or know it all, or put anybody down. Perhaps it is a matter of style. Perhaps I should not have been so flippant with my title. For offending you or anyone else, I apologize.

Thank you

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/30/2009 4:18:45 AM   
Silverdog

 

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I was not just pointing out just any misspelling, but that your post clearly implies that you read a ‘historic’ book that mentioned the Zulu conflict and you got excited, and took all that was written in that book as fact. My post was asking you to not just read one book, but rather go and research the Zulu conflict as a whole.

I’ve recently bought Gary Grigsby's WbtS, but I don’t know much about the American civil war. But I’ve asked on the forum for book recommendations so I can read and learn from different historical views to build an overall picture. I was merely suggesting that you do a similar thing.


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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/30/2009 4:45:39 AM   
Unhappy

 

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Well, I'll take a shot at wading in on things I don't know about.  This discussion of courage reminded me of a book I had to read a few years ago "The Anatomy of Courage" by Lord Moran.  He was a British army doctor (this is all from my fuzzy memory so it is quite possible I will mess things up here) during the First World War.  I believe a central part of his argument was that courage (in battle) was a finite quality or resource.  It was gradually expended in battle, but could be 'recharged' with R&R so to speak.  However, once an individual's supply of courage was completely expended that was it, they were no longer an effective soldier.  Feel free to disagree.  Anyway, in terms of a PC game, I also think that it is integral to a morale rating, however, I do think that morale should be a variable characteristic of an individual or unit, one that gets depleted in combat but that can be recouped with rest.

My two cents.  

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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/30/2009 6:24:18 AM   
Obsolete


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I really don't think REST should recoupe morale.  Unless, the drop in morale was due to physical exhaustion.  And even then, exhaustion doesn't always mean low morale.




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RE: Consideration of a Courage Rating - 5/30/2009 7:50:46 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Rest does absolutely recoupe morale. But it's affect is affected by how the morale is lost. For example, morale of a soldier can be down because the leader is rubbish. Going on leave will not fix this normally because the soldier is returning to the same command structure. If morale loss is due to battle weariness, then rest is a god send. If morale less is due to seeing half your company and most of your friends wiped out, then rest is less effective in rebuilding morale, but it most likely would still have a possitive effect.

In short, any rest from battle will most likely have a positive effect on morale....sometimes this effect will be huge. I would counter, though, that too much rest could be counter productive. IT cannot be too short as to not have an impact on the soldier...at the same time, too long will take the soldiers mindset completely away from battle and it would be like starting all over again for him.

That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it

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