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Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 7:59:29 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline 		In the case if you haven't seen any Masaru Tochibayashi (aka Tochy Suppon) 3dcg movies yet, I highly recommend to do it. I’ve recently got one of his gems by emule, this 25min long film depicts Battle of Santa Cruz islands. If you like Battle 360 and Dogfight on History channel, you won’t be disappointed. It’s a very nice piece of cinematography, of course this is not “industrial light & magic” job, but all action scenes are very well composed. It is also available on youtube, but I recommend to download this mpeg, quality is, not dramatically, but better.

Archive Part 1
Archive Part 2



this film on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBD9EoBTahQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAXfj_U0u8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQjxojAuZBU

some of his previous works, Coral Sea and Saburo Sakai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ6oDIJ6gmY&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqG50vzfDmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR8mXg5sOvM

Sorry if this has been brought up before.


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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 8:04:44 PM   
m10bob


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Status: offline 		Beautiful pics!..Thank you..

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 8:19:52 PM   
Iridium


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Status: offline 		That's a really good CG film. Even if it is all in Japanese.


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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 8:40:09 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		That guy's work stinks if it's the same fellow who made the CG "Sakai vs Southerland" vid.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 9:04:12 PM   
Akos Gergely

 

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Status: offline 		Extremely impressive! I wonder how they did it as the Battle 360 CGI is waaay behind this level...

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 9:56:38 PM   
Subchaser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

Extremely impressive! I wonder how they did it as the Battle 360 CGI is waaay behind this level...


It’s all done by one man, Tochy Suppon, as I understand he uses LightWave 3D to make his films. And I have to agree, his work is a lot better than History’s channel efforts. It’s amazing what one can do on home PC nowadays, and what will be possible tomorrow.

Here is a little review of this film by pacificwrecks.com

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/reviews/3dcg.html

The movie and the book (seems to be as awesome as the movie) is available from Japanese Amazon, there is a link over there, the price is reasonable - $23

There are also a couple of clips that he has done before on his personal webpage

http://www.k4.dion.ne.jp/~suppon/


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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 10:03:23 PM   
Subchaser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That guy's work stinks if it's the same fellow who made the CG "Sakai vs Southerland" vid.


Stinks??? Isn’t that a bit harsh? I can understand that you don’t like the way this memorable duel was reproduced, but the guy has some skills, you cannot deny that.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 10:13:58 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		The a.c. look like skins that were available 5+ years ago for MS CFS2, and the people in it look really computereze rendered... almost like incomplete rendering.

As for the Sakai vs Southerland one, yeah I don't like it because the guy got 99% of the fight wrong. He omitted the other three Zeros that were in the fight (as I recall), omitted that Southerland's ship was already damaged (in the CGI thing Southerland's F4 is pristine until Sakai shows up, when in fact it had already taken an engine hit from a Betty), omitted that Southerland was out of ammunition before the Zekes showed up, and omitted a really big error that Sakai and several others made in overtaking Southerland and pulling up in front of him. If there'd been ammo in Southerland's guns, Sakai would have burned then and there.



< Message edited by mdiehl -- 5/29/2009 10:14:49 PM >

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 10:35:44 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline 		Keep in mind, that this is a homemade job, if you know someone who did a better work of this on home PC I would like to see it. It has already been said, even History channel’s 3dcg is not that good.

Watch that clip again, it’s clear that Southerland is out of ammunition when Sakai comes after him, Sakai is in his gunsight, he tries to shoot him down but nothing happens. Also, this is just a clip obviously, you have to see the full version of this film before you judge it.


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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/29/2009 10:59:00 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for posting these picks and links!

This stuff is getting better all the time, I watched "The Sky Crawlers " the other day, and while fiction, the A to A stuff was truely amasing.

< Message edited by Brady -- 5/29/2009 11:10:49 PM >

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 3:22:21 AM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That guy's work stinks if it's the same fellow who made the CG "Sakai vs Southerland" vid.


Stinks??? Isn’t that a bit harsh? I can understand that you don’t like the way this memorable duel was reproduced, but the guy has some skills, you cannot deny that.


I doubt he even watched it. Just saw it was Japanese and knew it had to stink. That's his MO.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 12:33:52 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
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Status: offline 		The Wildcats and Dauntless seem like the flame quicker than  even the fragilest of Zekes but none the less this guy is an artist of the highest degree. Thanks for sharing.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 1:33:48 PM   
DivePac88


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Status: offline 		Beautiful clips, gives you a feel for what it would have looked like. Thank you Subchaser, and don’t take the critic to seriously, because that’s what they do.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 3:16:37 PM   
CarnageINC


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Status: offline 		Very nicely done for one dude, thanks Subchaser for this little gold nugget 

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 3:48:34 PM   
LST Express


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Status: offline 		Wow! Very cool.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 4:34:33 PM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		Subchaser, thank you for posting details of this CG video. For a home production I rate it as being very high quality indeed. For comparison, I took a look at the Dogfights Demo Reel at this url, which I assume showcases material they produced for the History Channel. For my money, Tochibayashi 's rendition of aerial combat sequences is superior.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

That guy's work stinks if it's the same fellow who made the CG "Sakai vs Southerland" vid.


Seldom have I heard the product of a man's labours dismissed in so mean-spirited a fashion.

mdiehl, wouldn't you care to reconsider your opinion and offer a little credit where it's due? Or is it your case that he got '99%' of this depiction of Santa Cruz wrong, too?

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 5:24:47 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		Any one of those Stills would make for a great signature....

...........

A still I snaped, that shows:



The Light Landing systeam the Japanese used, they did use a batman.

< Message edited by Brady -- 5/30/2009 5:35:40 PM >

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 6:04:33 PM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
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From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		I hadn't noticed the landing lights! The array looks very white - is this intended to be the effect of the red and green lights being superimposed? The texts I've seen indicate that only red and green lights were used, with no white.

The impression given by what I have read is that Japanese carrier pilots were allowed much greater autonomy during taking off and landing on than those of other nations. The seibin would give you a wave-off if you were coming in too low (or the flight deck was closed - different flag), but otherwise the approach was down to you, the pilot.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 6:20:30 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

In the case if you haven't seen any Masaru Tochibayashi (aka Tochy Suppon) 3dcg movies yet, I highly recommend to do it. I’ve recently got one of his gems by emule, this 25min long film depicts Battle of Santa Cruz islands. If you like Battle 360 and Dogfight on History channel, you won’t be disappointed. It’s a very nice piece of cinematography, of course this is not “industrial light & magic” job, but all action scenes are very well composed. It is also available on youtube, but I recommend to download this mpeg, quality is, not dramatically, but better.

Archive Part 1
Archive Part 2

this film on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBD9EoBTahQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAXfj_U0u8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQjxojAuZBU

some of his previous works, Coral Sea and Saburo Sakai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ6oDIJ6gmY&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqG50vzfDmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR8mXg5sOvM

Sorry if this has been brought up before.


Thanks!


Leo "Apolo11"

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 6:34:22 PM   
Brady


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From: Oregon,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

I hadn't noticed the landing lights! The array looks very white - is this intended to be the effect of the red and green lights being superimposed? The texts I've seen indicate that only red and green lights were used, with no white.

The impression given by what I have read is that Japanese carrier pilots were allowed much greater autonomy during taking off and landing on than those of other nations. The seibin would give you a wave-off if you were coming in too low (or the flight deck was closed - different flag), but otherwise the approach was down to you, the pilot.


I think it is just the efect of the film,they look liker suposed to be green and red to me, I think though that this is his take on how the lights apeared.

Check this out:

http://www.ussessexcv9.org/pdfs/Japanese%20Carrier%20Operations.pdf

Thier was a land based vershion of this as well, I have passage in a book I have on Black cats that describe a PBY crew watching the Japanese use one of these systems over a base in the SWPA area at night to land aircraft.






< Message edited by Brady -- 5/30/2009 6:38:39 PM >

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 6:58:11 PM   
Local Yokel


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From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		I'd forgotten that there is a quite detailed drawing in 'Shattered Sword' of the lighting aids on Japanese carriers. It looks as though this is derived from the Tailhook Association article in your link - says it's 'Adapted from Carl Snow and A.T.I.G.'

Interestingly, the SS drawing does indicate the presence of a white light in the centre of the red light array for signalling to the pilot, but I agree with your assessment.

I think the Tailhook article may be wrong in assigning wave-off responsibility to the hikôchô: SS is very clear in saying this was the seibin's job.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 7:38:10 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline 		The landing lights really looked all white from a distance, especially in bad weather, because of of their high intensity. Here they look white simply because of the poor quality of the clip, nevertheless in a latter sequence you can see they are of a proper red and green colors (although green looks a bit more like a light blue in this video). Thanks for the article, it adds up some more details, there is also a good illustration of IJN landing operations in Sunburst, page 69.



Local Yokel, thanks for the link, I agree Tochy’s work is more lively, dynamics are very realistic, he chooses a better angles and those real camera effects make the video looks like a real footage, Radical 3D videos are superb too, but when you watch them there is a feeling that this is PC simulator game, a great one though.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 11:12:47 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Seldom have I heard the product of a man's labours dismissed in so mean-spirited a fashion.


Nothing mean spirited about it in the least. It's bad art. It's the CGI equivalent of a velvet elvis paint by numbers. It's poorly rendered and as historical sequence (Sakai v Southerland) simply DOESN'T match much how that encounter played out.

It's not mean spirited either to say that the movie Pearl Harbor stank to high heaven for similar reasons and many others.

quote:

mdiehl, wouldn't you care to reconsider your opinion and offer a little credit where it's due? Or is it your case that he got '99%' of this depiction of Santa Cruz wrong, too?


Well, 99% of Santa Cruz wasn't covered. It's not clear to me which particular plane v plane encounters he tried to model in the Santa Cruz animation, and not reading Japanese I can't tell whether he's named the pilots in the subtitles. It's artistic quality is on par with the stuff in MS CFSII.

I also watched the 1945 clip. Again, not very good art. The people in that (and in all his vids) are very poorly rendered IMO. I'm not sure what the technical terms are, but when you animate people you make something that looks like a wire mockup, then you overlay body parts and colors, and then you fine tune. It doesn't look fine-tuned.

If you want me to phrase it differently, I could say that I wouldn't watch it twice and I wouldn't pay monery to see something new by the same fellow. Maybe he'll get better at it.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/30/2009 11:59:05 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

Stinks??? Isn’t that a bit harsh? I can understand that you don’t like the way this memorable duel was reproduced, but the guy has some skills, you cannot deny that.


Thx for the links SC. I enjoyed the Sakai/Sutherland fight as well. He did a decent job portraying how it went down after Sakai joined the fight.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/31/2009 1:14:40 AM   
Local Yokel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Seldom have I heard the product of a man's labours dismissed in so mean-spirited a fashion.


Nothing mean spirited about it in the least. It's bad art. It's the CGI equivalent of a velvet elvis paint by numbers. It's poorly rendered and as historical sequence (Sakai v Southerland) simply DOESN'T match much how that encounter played out.

It's not mean spirited either to say that the movie Pearl Harbor stank to high heaven for similar reasons and many others.

quote:

mdiehl, wouldn't you care to reconsider your opinion and offer a little credit where it's due? Or is it your case that he got '99%' of this depiction of Santa Cruz wrong, too?


Well, 99% of Santa Cruz wasn't covered. It's not clear to me which particular plane v plane encounters he tried to model in the Santa Cruz animation, and not reading Japanese I can't tell whether he's named the pilots in the subtitles. It's artistic quality is on par with the stuff in MS CFSII.

I also watched the 1945 clip. Again, not very good art. The people in that (and in all his vids) are very poorly rendered IMO. I'm not sure what the technical terms are, but when you animate people you make something that looks like a wire mockup, then you overlay body parts and colors, and then you fine tune. It doesn't look fine-tuned.

If you want me to phrase it differently, I could say that I wouldn't watch it twice and I wouldn't pay monery to see something new by the same fellow. Maybe he'll get better at it.


I'm having some difficulty in understanding how you can justify such a blanket damnation of the man's work if you were unable to recognise the events portrayed in the Santa Cruz video. For my own part I had no great problem in squaring what I saw with the accounts of the battle that I have read. Nor indeed did I find a command of Japanese necessary in order to identify some of the aircrew involved.

You make it clear that you cannot bring yourself to find any merit whatsoever in the production. I don't aspire to the right to pass so Olympian a judgment. Sadly, however, I see no reason to revise my view that "That guy's work stinks" suggests a predisposition to find fault. I prefer to look for what people have done right rather than what they've done wrong.

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/31/2009 4:56:25 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

I'm having some difficulty in understanding how you can justify such a blanket damnation of the man's work if you were unable to recognise the events portrayed in the Santa Cruz video.


I was sure that I was perfectly clear. I'll simplify:
1. I think the artwork/rendering is unimpressive.
2. The one specific engagement modeled in detail (Sakai v Southerland) is (very) inaccurate IMO.

quote:

For my on part I had no great problem in squaring what I saw with the accounts of the battle that I have read.


In a general way it was consistent with SC in the same way that in a general way the movie Pearl Harbor was consistent with PH.

quote:

Sadly, however, I see no reason to revise my view that "That guy's work stinks" suggests a predisposition to find fault. I prefer to look for what people have done right rather than what they've done wrong.


I think it's bad art. You claim based on the one comment that I have a "predisposition" to find fault. For a guy who claims not to find fault, you have a strange predisposition for fault-finding. You have an, hmmm, interesting opinion of yourself.

Where's that green button? A yes, there it is.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 5/31/2009 4:59:24 AM >

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/31/2009 1:26:00 PM   
Akos Gergely

 

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quote:

1. I think the artwork/rendering is unimpressive.


quote:

I think it's bad art.


quote:

The people in that (and in all his vids) are very poorly rendered


Jeeez, is this guy for real ? I guess you could do much-much better....but if not you, then please show me one 3D CGI movie that's better than this one.


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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/31/2009 2:21:29 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Giving Diehl all the disrespect that he so richly deserves, I'm unfortunately inclined to say that he's entitled to his opinion on this.

Having watched it myself, I'm kinda torn between respecting the fact that one guy on a home PC made this (a feat I certainly couldn't duplicate), and the fact that I don't really find it all the technically impressive or even very interesting. Sorry, guys...

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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/31/2009 3:45:55 PM   
Akos Gergely

 

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quote:

I'm unfortunately inclined to say that he's entitled to his opinion on this.


As do we, the rest who like it.

quote:

I'm kinda torn between respecting the fact that one guy on a home PC made this (a feat I certainly couldn't duplicate)


You said it yourself: that's why I think the guy deserves some kudos. Nothing is perfect, probably the storyline etc. is not historically correct in his movie but it's still waaay better what usually history channel and the likes produce for quite a sum of money (and more dynamic and interesting as those usually rehash the same scene hundreds of times). I'm inclined to say the ship models are even better then what we can see in some real blockbuster movies.

So my opinion is that one can rarely see home made CGI that is even approaching the level of this.


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RE: Santa Cruz Battle in 3DCG - 5/31/2009 4:26:17 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		just watched Santa Cruz. I thought it was very well done given the resources (if this was home made) I was impressed. I've seen worse CGI in a full budget movie. Didn't see anything majorly wrong with the history either. He got the gist of the major events. An enjoyable rendition to watch.

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