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Game versus Re-creation -the Gili Gili debate

 
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Game versus Re-creation -the Gili Gili debate - 5/28/2002 8:20:47 AM   
coach3play4

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: usa
Status: offline 		The designers want a good game, so the AI goes after Gili Gili in June '42. Some want to play against the hisitorical strategy.

The "problem" is that taking Gili Gili changes the focus of the campaign game - now this is fine for the developer that wants a good game, but not so good for the player that wants to play a campaign game, and measure his abilities against history - or the player that wants to try a different strategy against the historical moves.
I hope the developer would have a scenario that was AI hard wired to history. Obviously this could (in the wrong hands!) make UV not a game anymore, but for those of us that are pure history type players, - well we just wouldnt not cheat!

Anyway - my request is for a harder wired scenario - that starts after a failed Coral Sea, and please no Gili Gili.
Post #: 1
- 5/28/2002 8:45:31 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Gili Gili is meant to represent the Battle of Milne Bay.

Admittedly it was a short sharp engagement.

(in reply to coach3play4)
Post #: 2
- 5/28/2002 11:05:33 AM   
Huskalator

 

Posts: 212
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		What are you talking about? Gili Gili was a major successful Japanese invasion. Th victorious IJN used this base in their devastating night time raids on Port Moresby.

:) I like recreateing history.

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Post #: 3
- 5/28/2002 11:25:41 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		“In late August, unable to more further down the Kokoda Trail, the Japanese decided to make a second line of attack on Port Moresby. On 25 -26 August they landed at Milne bay on the extreme eastern tip of Papua, about 370 kilometres from Port Moresby. Although under great logistical stress with the fighting on the Kododa Trail, Allied forces were ready for them. Unlike the protracted Kokoda campaign, the Battle of Milne Bay ended in just over ten days.”


And on the little map note the location of Gili Gili

http://www.battleforaustralia.org.au/milnebay.html

-

(in reply to coach3play4)
Post #: 4
- 5/28/2002 11:34:12 AM   
coach3play4

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deep Breakfast
[B]What are you talking about? Gili Gili was a major successful Japanese invasion. Th victorious IJN used this base in their devastating night time raids on Port Moresby.

In late August, with a small force (here they landed with some 7,000 troops). The August landing had little effect and was defeated by an Aussie force 3 times as big as the 400 japanese.
You have to agree that landing 7,000 in June makes things lots different - for example, you might be forced to use the 1st marine there, rathe than at "Canal" The invasion by the AI in June is clearly not historical - again my point it may make for a better game, but it messes with any close replication of history.

FOR the record - I understated the action here - the Japanese landed 1900 against some 7,000 allies at Milne bay (gili gili), but again this was in September .

(in reply to coach3play4)
Post #: 5
Scenario 17 Not Historical - 5/28/2002 12:43:30 PM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		But of course, Scenario 17 is not meant to recreate history since it posits that Midway did not take place (which is where all the Japanese resources would have been in early June).

The whole point of Scenario 17 is to replay an ahistorical game which leaves more Japanese resources in theatre.

If you want to play the historical scenario pick one that starts in July or August. These are meant to replicate the historical timeline more closely.

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to coach3play4)
Post #: 6
- 5/28/2002 7:01:05 PM   
Narlotep

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 11/17/2000
Status: offline 		IChristie,

Except that in the July '42 Campaign the Japs hit GG within the first week. Historically, the Australians had already moved an AIF BDE, Base Unit, and fighters into GG before the Japs showed up in August. In the current campaign there is no way to do this in time other than moving fighters.

I will modify the campaign to move the 7th BDE, Base Unit, and sufficient supplies from Brisbane into GG at start. Its ahistorical but should counter the ahistorical early Jap move into the base and/or make it tougher.

(in reply to coach3play4)
Post #: 7
The Same applies to Coral Sea - 5/28/2002 7:30:03 PM   
Wilhammer

 

Posts: 449
Joined: 5/24/2002
From: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
Status: offline 		In the Coral Sea scenario, the AI always goes after Gili-Gili.

If memory serves me, they in fact were heading straight for Port Moresby AND Tulagi.

After playing it like 10 times, I have never seen the IJN/IJA attempt anything other than Buna/Gili-Gili.

In essence, the AI is practicing what the Japanese forgot to practice; attacking only where air cover is overwhelmingly possible.

It is far easier for Rabual to dictate terms in Gili-Gili and Buna than it is in Port Moresby.

History indicates that the fatal flaw in the IJN/IJA campaign in this region was that it forgot its own principles; NO advances without air cover.

The Allies would further demonstrate that principle to them for the rest of the war.

BTW,

I CAN'T STOP PLAYING THIS GAME!

Awesome, simply awesome.

(in reply to coach3play4)
Post #: 8
- 5/28/2002 8:10:21 PM   
coach3play4

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Narlotep
[B]IChristie,

Except that in the July '42 Campaign the Japs hit GG within the first week. Historically, the Australians had already moved an AIF BDE, Base Unit, and fighters into GG before the Japs showed up in August. In the current campaign there is no way to do this in time other than moving fighters.

I will modify the campaign to move the 7th BDE, Base Unit, and sufficient supplies from Brisbane into GG at start. Its ahistorical but should counter the ahistorical early Jap move into the base and/or make it tougher. [/B][/QUOTE]

Great - thats what we need unless Matrix comes out with a hard wired AI to avoid an early Gili Gili. Are you posting a new scenario? Will it be on this site?

(in reply to coach3play4)
Post #: 9
- 5/28/2002 9:13:03 PM   
IChristie

 

Posts: 673
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		There are several already in the game. I forget the numbers.

_____________________________

Iain Christie
-----------------
"If patience is a virtue then persistence is it's part.
It's better to light a candle than stand and curse the dark"

- James Keelaghan

(in reply to coach3play4)
Post #: 10
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