The Guard handled odd in the game?

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The Guard handled odd in the game? - 4/30/2009 4:37:33 AM

STUCKER868

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I finally purchased the game after holding off as long as I could! Lots of bugs but still an amazing game. The first thing I noticed that seems odd to me is how Guard forces are produced. Am I reading that right? You can "build" a Guard unit? How can you build a Guard unit (although very expensive in costs) and have it appear in all it's glory. Nappys Guard forces were hand picked, at least early on and were pulled from experienced formations later on. These men also had certain physical requirements to be part of the Guard. I would rather have seen the designers allow you to "recruit" a Guard unit from other units accross the board and perhaps lower those units quality to reflect the loss of some experienced men.

The Guard formations were in general over rated (a ball will kill a guardsmen just as fast as a raw recruit) i.e. they were not supermen as some game systems make them out to be (some miniature gamings systems do so.) They did have an aura about them and had a reputation that preceded them into battle. Some of the non British Allied formations ran from the field at Waterloo when the Middle Guard moved forward late in the afternoon, yet a hail of balls routed and crushed them just as well as any other formation. For the most part, especially after 1812, the Guard units were comprised of middle aged men who usually stood around in the back and "grumbled." There is no way those middle aged old fogies could compete with a unit of veterans in their prime for long. Trust me, I am a guy who still goes to the gym at 49 years of age and things are a hell of a lot harder today then they were when I was 30!

The other thing is "why" if the morale of Guard units falls below 8 they convert to "regular" units? WHA? And did I read that right, they can never become Guard units again? HUH? Name one time in Napoleonic history where that ever happened. What is the presendence for that? Also, while Iam at it, why does the presence of a Guard unit raise the morale of an adjacent French unit (in reality, most regular French units did not like the Guard units for various reasons.) Also, and I admit I only skimmed the rules a few times, I did not read where the "rout" of a Guard unit could cause a huge risk of partial or total army rout as happened at Waterloo (the only example we really have of what happens when a Guard force is defeated in front of the regulars.) How about incorporating a rule where the sudden appearance of a Guard unit could cause the retreat/rout of forces with low morale? Thus the "aura" of invincibility would be born in the game.

Anyone agree, disagree? I welcome some friendly banter on this.

Scott

Post #: 1

RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 4/30/2009 4:49:46 AM

Russian Guard

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Hi STUCKER868,

I can speak to one of these issues - the first one you mention, Guards being "raised" vs "recruited".

In the game that's exactly what happens. When you build a Guard unit you will see many other infantry units in your Army lose Morale. I don't recall the exact numbers but what you describe is exactly how it works in CoG:EE - the "best" troops are pulled from other Divisions to create the new Guard, hence they lose some morale due to this. For this reason alone, it isn't wise to build very many Guard units.

(in reply to STUCKER868)

Post #: 2

RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 4/30/2009 3:05:01 PM

STUCKER868

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Awesome.... That's good to hear. Again, I just skimmed the rules and I probably missed that. Thanks very much for the clairification.

What are your thoughts about the way the A.I. handles the cannon? In most battles I have fought (Brigade usually) the A.I. moves the cannon around like tanks...

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 5/1/2009 5:45:57 AM

Russian Guard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

Awesome.... That's good to hear. Again, I just skimmed the rules and I probably missed that. Thanks very much for the clairification.

What are your thoughts about the way the A.I. handles the cannon? In most battles I have fought (Brigade usually) the A.I. moves the cannon around like tanks...

Heh, yeah it can look like that sometimes. But if you read about many of Napoleons battles, you'll note that he moves canon batteries around alot. many times he used canon to reinforce a failing flank or advanced it to soften up a position. I think canon may be a bit more "mobile" in the game than it probably was historically, but I can also tell you that in CoG 1 people complained when their canon became entangled and didn't move much, even though thats more historical. Canon doesn't get tangled as much in CoG:EE, it seems.

(in reply to STUCKER868)

Post #: 4

RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 5/2/2009 2:59:56 AM

ShaiHulud

Posts: 113
Joined: 12/19/2000
From: Waipahu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I finally purchased the game after holding off as long as I could! Lots of bugs but still an amazing game. The first thing I noticed that seems odd to me is how Guard forces are produced. Am I reading that right? You can "build" a Guard unit? How can you build a Guard unit (although very expensive in costs) and have it appear in all it's glory. Nappys Guard forces were hand picked, at least early on and were pulled from experienced formations later on. These men also had certain physical requirements to be part of the Guard. I would rather have seen the designers allow you to "recruit" a Guard unit from other units accross the board and perhaps lower those units quality to reflect the loss of some experienced men.

The Guard formations were in general over rated (a ball will kill a guardsmen just as fast as a raw recruit) i.e. they were not supermen as some game systems make them out to be (some miniature gamings systems do so.) They did have an aura about them and had a reputation that preceded them into battle. Some of the non British Allied formations ran from the field at Waterloo when the Middle Guard moved forward late in the afternoon, yet a hail of balls routed and crushed them just as well as any other formation. For the most part, especially after 1812, the Guard units were comprised of middle aged men who usually stood around in the back and "grumbled." There is no way those middle aged old fogies could compete with a unit of veterans in their prime for long. Trust me, I am a guy who still goes to the gym at 49 years of age and things are a hell of a lot harder today then they were when I was 30!

The other thing is "why" if the morale of Guard units falls below 8 they convert to "regular" units? WHA? And did I read that right, they can never become Guard units again? HUH? Name one time in Napoleonic history where that ever happened. What is the presendence for that? Also, while Iam at it, why does the presence of a Guard unit raise the morale of an adjacent French unit (in reality, most regular French units did not like the Guard units for various reasons.) Also, and I admit I only skimmed the rules a few times, I did not read where the "rout" of a Guard unit could cause a huge risk of partial or total army rout as happened at Waterloo (the only example we really have of what happens when a Guard force is defeated in front of the regulars.) How about incorporating a rule where the sudden appearance of a Guard unit could cause the retreat/rout of forces with low morale? Thus the "aura" of invincibility would be born in the game.

Anyone agree, disagree? I welcome some friendly banter on this.

Scott

First, as I recall reading it, the creation of a Guard unit decreases all your other units by .33.

Regarding the status of Guards- There were qualifications to be met to be assigned to a Guard unit. Sometimes they were frivolous.

Frederick the Great had people roaming Europe to kidnap the unusually tall. He once tried to intimidate the Dutch monarch (think it was Queen Wilhemina) by boasting that HIS Guards were all seven feet tall. She replied that, when she opened the dikes, the water was eight feet high.

Anyway, height was often a factor. Take a tall man, add a tall shako type hat and you have what appears to be giants bearing down on you. They understood the psychological factors well enough, I think.

Beyond height, though, conspicuous bravery was the ticket to the Guards. You say a ball will kill them as easily as the average soldier. True enough. A bullet can kill a Navy Seal as easily as it would a supply clerk. But, you should bet on a squad of Navy Seals, or Marines, etc, to win in a confrontation with the regular army squads. Esprit AND training together are what sends men into the face of cannon without flinching, eh? The average soldier would falter, the Guards were expected to to advance, whatever they opposed.

Regarding the Young Guard at Waterloo, it was not really an elite formation nor, I believe, ever had been. They got the 'Guards' title but did not have the stricter standards of the Old Guard. Some cadre and a lot of, somewhat, experienced, but not elite, soldiers were plugged in. There just were not enough experienced veterans left alive, after Russia. In fact, the only French unit to escape Russia virtually intact was the Old Guard.

The Old Guard, at Waterloo, was just a shadow of its old formation. Many had not come to the call when Nappy returned.

And, don't put too much weight on the title 'Old Guard'. They were not a bunch of septuagenarians.

(in reply to STUCKER868)

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 5/2/2009 5:30:30 AM

STUCKER868

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Excellent reply! Thanks for the info. I do enjoy the pagentry of the Napoleonic era!

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 5/2/2009 9:20:15 PM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

The Guard formations were in general over rated (a ball will kill a guardsmen just as fast as a raw recruit) i.e. they were not supermen as some game systems make them out to be (some miniature gamings systems do so.)

Not necessarily supermen, but they were picked men.

Any time you select men based on superior attributes and/or experience and then they receive extra training thats the makings of an elite force.

Be it Viking Huscarls, Napoleonic Guards, US Army Rangers, you name it.

I dont think the Guard bonuses are overplayed in COG:EE. They slightly raise neighboring infantry units morale (but only to a certain extent, exact limits are discussed in the manual) and have very high morale themselves, but they behave just like high morale infantry when shooting, changing formation, charging etc with only a couple small exceptions.

A point blank shot from an artillery unit in the flank or rear that inflicts 30% casualties will break them just like normal infantry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

The other thing is "why" if the morale of Guard units falls below 8 they convert to "regular" units? WHA? And did I read that right, they can never become Guard units again? HUH? Name one time in Napoleonic history where that ever happened. What is the presendence for that?

I agree with you on that.

Ive also seen it be far too easy, particularly in PBEM where Guards can get mangled outside of player control in Instant combat, for Guards to revert to normal infantry status.

Kinda bogus. I dont see any precedent for elite troops becoming disqualified in the manner they do in COG:EE.

< Message edited by Mus -- 5/2/2009 9:29:00 PM >

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 5/8/2009 2:51:35 PM

montesaurus

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In response to Shai Hulud's claim about Frederick the Great recruiting big men for a guard unit, thats not entirely accurate. If I remember correct that recruiting effort was done by King Frederick I, who was King Frederick the Great's father. They were also called the Potsdam Guards, and their recruitment was stopped after King Frederick the Great came into power. King Frederick the Great considered them too expensive and wastefull!

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 5/8/2009 5:16:30 PM

canuck64

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just wading in with a random thought on the use of the Guard....

one gets the clear impression from stories of the times that the Guard, for all nations-was somehow representative of the power of the various regimes...
and as such, i think they were committed very sparingly generally...this was the time for reserves that often didn't get into the heat of battle...

and I suspect the lowering of the morale of the Guard is really only relevant when I don't use them properly. You cannot have 'elite' units constantly getting hammered...so my throwing them into the mouths of opposition artillery (which i admit to having done) mangled one brigade horribly..

i was more reserved thereafter in my commitment of the Guard, i'll admit. Thus, maybe this is a relevant issue nonetheless. If I had a regiment of a 1000 trained men that i throw into the maelstrom and they succeed and turn the battle, desipite being hit hard, the morale should stay up. in my case, i stupidly got them shot to pieces in three successive turns without reducing the position....
in reality were i left with a decimated unit of 250 men-those men are not quickly going to retain their sense of being elite...

the guard dies and breaks like any unit, which i was happy to see....but often i think we have expectations of elite units that are not matched by reality. Losing lots of men and losing a battle/campaign....not good for any troops-and it might be seen that a Guard unit could drop seriously in morale...

I believe Nappy was reluctant almost always to commit la Garde. They were in many ways a monarch's 'army within an army'- I wonder how much the 'elite' status was relevant to troops that had ceremonial function likely more than actual combat. Am I wrong? I want to use them like Waffen SS but is that realistic?

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 5/9/2009 9:53:48 AM

ShaiHulud

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quote:

ORIGINAL: montesaurus

In response to Shai Hulud's claim about Frederick the Great recruiting big men for a guard unit, thats not entirely accurate. If I remember correct that recruiting effort was done by King Frederick I, who was King Frederick the Great's father. They were also called the Potsdam Guards, and their recruitment was stopped after King Frederick the Great came into power. King Frederick the Great considered them too expensive and wastefull!

And, now that you say it, that's exactly what I recall, too! I stand corrected, friend.

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 5/31/2009 7:51:42 PM

Bobbyjack60

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Several units where called guard and didn't deserve the name. I don't think the Young Guards deserve it. They would best be represeted by some high morale Lt Infantry units. The middle guard is up for debate and I could go either way with them.

But, don't be too hasty to under-estimate the effectiveness of the Old Guard. They were elite. Two battalions of Old Guard routed 14 battalions of Prussians at Plancenoit. 'Les Grognards' thru them out of the village even though they where outnumbered 7 to 1.

Unfortunately, when Wellingtons line was cracked, the reserve which should have exploited it where engaging the Prussians at Placenoit. By the time Napolean sent the Guard after the Britsh, the Iron Duke had made good the time the Prussians had bought for him and closed the window of oppurtunity that Napolean had.

While the French army disintigrated, the Old Guard fought off pursuit. They left the field marching in perfect order and beating their drums. They fought off several attacks and when called to surrender, they responded, "La Garde meurt, elle ne se rend pas!" (the guard dies, it does not surrender!)

After the battle was lost, they stayed in their squares and kept the emperor safe while fighting off both the British and the Prussians.

Pretty effective in my book. But, there is only so much they could do. If they where unable to break Wellington's lines at the last charge, I don't think any soldiers from the Napoleanic Wars could have done it.

-Bobby Jack

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 6/8/2009 7:41:01 PM

Anthropoid

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So you think there are too many of them at start, or that it is too easy to generate new ones?

I always thought that that effect of lowering everybody else's morale was a bit suspiscious . . .

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 6/8/2009 10:26:41 PM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I always thought that that effect of lowering everybody else's morale was a bit suspiscious . . .

Makes sense to me. You are going from unit to unit and handpicking men with the right stuff. Overall unit quality would reduce.

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 6/9/2009 3:36:46 AM

Anthropoid

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Oh yeah, when you put it that way! What is the standard radius by which they give a morale boost to other units in combat?

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 6/10/2009 12:06:15 PM

Bobbyjack60

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I'm okay with all your units losing morale to represent the loss of their best soldiers to the Guard Divisions. I don't like that it's a fixed amount for all divisions.

If I have 20 Infantry, they each lose 500 elite soldiers which is represented by the .33 morale loss.
If I have 40 infantry, they each lose 250 elite soldiers which is still represented by the same .33 morale loss.

If you have twice as many units, the morale loss suffered should be lessoned by a proportional amount. Each unit would have to give up only half as much elite soldiers as before and therefore should only suffer half the morale loss.

Maybe something like:
10 Infantry, .33 morale loss across the board
20 Infantry, .22 morale loss across the board
30 Infantry, .11 morale loss across the board

Of course the numbers could be adjusted by some Grognard to make for better gameplay or more historical accuracy.

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 6/10/2009 8:51:11 PM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Oh yeah, when you put it that way! What is the standard radius by which they give a morale boost to other units in combat?

1 Hex. Elite Guard doubles that to 2.

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 7/17/2009 11:07:08 AM

Bobbyjack60

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I found something else odd about the guards in the game. I produced a new guard unit in Paris. Paris had max barracks level.

My new guard unit was produced with 8,000 strength and 9.0 morale.
Since it was December when they were produced, I put them in the city until the next campaign season. During the next couple of months, my guard unit was replenished to the full 10k. The morale dropped to 8.09. They almost dropped below guard status just from being brought up to strength. I already paid a steep price to make the guard. In addition, all my other units lost .33 morale. I shouldn't be penalized further for producing a guard.

This led me to a couple of questions,

What is the point of producing higher barracks levels if the moral gained is lost bringing the units up to strength?
What is the purpose of spending all the resources and time on a guard unit if it is almost reduced to non-guard status before the first battle?
Why would you create a unit of 8,000 elite soldiers only to fill out the remainder with raw conscripts?

I would suggest one of the following
1. having a guard unit created with the full 10,000 strength. After that, any further reinforcement would cause a morale loss.
2. having a special ability to purchase for guard units. It would lets them reinforce with no moral loss. This would represent the fact that you are taking the best soldiers from the other units to make good the guard's losses, not raw consripts.

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RE: The Guard handled odd in the game? - 7/20/2009 3:19:27 AM

Russian Guard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobbyjack60

I found something else odd about the guards in the game. I produced a new guard unit in Paris. Paris had max barracks level.

My new guard unit was produced with 8,000 strength and 9.0 morale.
Since it was December when they were produced, I put them in the city until the next campaign season. During the next couple of months, my guard unit was replenished to the full 10k. The morale dropped to 8.09. They almost dropped below guard status just from being brought up to strength. I already paid a steep price to make the guard. In addition, all my other units lost .33 morale. I shouldn't be penalized further for producing a guard.

This led me to a couple of questions,

What is the point of producing higher barracks levels if the moral gained is lost bringing the units up to strength?
What is the purpose of spending all the resources and time on a guard unit if it is almost reduced to non-guard status before the first battle?
Why would you create a unit of 8,000�elite soldiers only to fill out the remainder with raw conscripts?

I would suggest one of the following
1. having a guard unit created with the full 10,000 strength. After that, any further reinforcement would cause a morale loss.
2. having a special ability to purchase for guard units. It would lets them reinforce with no moral loss. This would represent the fact that you are taking the best soldiers from the other units to make good the guard's losses, not raw consripts.

If the unit created is an actual Guard designated unit, then it will not lose Guard status in this way. It will remain at 8.0 morale and go no lower, even if the troops filling it are below that level of morale.

Guards CAN lose Guard status as a result of their surrender or morale loss from losing battles.

Having said that, I agree with your point. I think your #1 solution would be best - #2 would require continuing to drop the morale of other units as you pulled the "best" from each as reinforcements (even though that is probably more historical).

(in reply to Bobbyjack60)

Post #: 18

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