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RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 3:13:02 PM

105mm Howitzer

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I'm one of those addicts, but not that listless, you know..

( oh hell, yes I am, who the hell am I kidding, I mean, I'm even a beta tester, oh, the shame, the shame)

Play WOW, feel great, love Matrix.
There, all in a nutshell
Cheers
MC

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Post #: 31

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 3:46:30 PM

JudgeDredd

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Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And the reason I answer your last comment is that you shouldn't be looking for an excuse to get offended, he he he

This is a public forum, so what I write is not your bloody problem (as long as I don't offend anybody: and I don't). Use the green button and voil�. No rocket science either

You read me wrong. I am not offended by you. I just think you were being awkward.

Last word goes to you if you want it...

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 32

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 4:12:09 PM

Kuokkanen

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I've recently seen on public media ( = TV) that game publishers have come FINALLY to realize that DRM systems right now in active use may be too much hassle for legitimate customers. Looks like Sims 3 is proving that it's not just talk

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Post #: 33

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 4:18:07 PM

TulliusDetritus

Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone�
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And the reason I answer your last comment is that you shouldn't be looking for an excuse to get offended, he he he

This is a public forum, so what I write is not your bloody problem (as long as I don't offend anybody: and I don't). Use the green button and voil�. No rocket science either

You read me wrong. I am not offended by you. I just think you were being awkward.

Last word goes to you if you want it...

Nah

Unlike others I am not here looking for an excuse to get offended (no need of names, eh?). So you haven't used that green button yet?

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Post #: 34

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 4:21:39 PM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

Posts: 358
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And the reason I answer your last comment is that you shouldn't be looking for an excuse to get offended, he he he

This is a public forum, so what I write is not your bloody problem (as long as I don't offend anybody: and I don't). Use the green button and voil�. No rocket science either

You read me wrong. I am not offended by you. I just think you were being awkward.

Last word goes to you if you want it...

Nah Unlike others I am not here looking for an excuse to get offended (no need of names, eh?). So you haven't used that green button yet?

TulliusDetritus, who's that freaky old guy in your signature video? The added balloon and red nose are funny.

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Post #: 35

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 4:54:46 PM

JudgeDredd

Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And the reason I answer your last comment is that you shouldn't be looking for an excuse to get offended, he he he

This is a public forum, so what I write is not your bloody problem (as long as I don't offend anybody: and I don't). Use the green button and voil�. No rocket science either

You read me wrong. I am not offended by you. I just think you were being awkward.

Last word goes to you if you want it...

Nah Unlike others I am not here looking for an excuse to get offended (no need of names, eh?). So you haven't used that green button yet?

Actually, even if I wanted to I couldn't, because I laugh too much at that "freaky old guy" in the bottom of your posts. Seriously, Man U get on my wick and I hold a personal dislike for that man...so I find it extremely amusing watching him chasing a balloon!!

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 36

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 4:57:38 PM

Dixie

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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

TulliusDetritus, who's that freaky old guy in your signature video? The added balloon and red nose are funny.

Sir Alex Ferguson. Manager of Manchester United

and all round top whinger and w*****r

EDIT: Although "Big" Sam Alardyce runs him close IMO

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Post #: 37

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 8:09:56 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Hauptsturmfuhrer, as said above he is the Manchester United manager. What you see is his reaction during an English FA Cup match between MUTD and Everton (if my memory does not fail). His team was not given a penalty so he went crazy (he is a notorious bully and referees are his prefered victims). Kudos to the anonymous cyber guy who added the balloon and red nose

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Post #: 38

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/9/2009 8:54:50 PM

Hertston

Posts: 3564
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From: Cornwall, UK
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I tend to be fairly forgiving of footie managers in that context (and I'm NOT a Man United fan). After all, I know enough fans who do that... why shouldn't the manager? Some people just have to vent off the frustration or explode (or, as is not infrequent in the profession, have a heart attack). It's not something most can control, even Capello has been know to lose his rag on occasion.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 39

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/10/2009 3:31:03 AM

sapper_astro

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I always spend a few seconds watching that guy. Damn funny.

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Post #: 40

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/10/2009 10:06:35 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

I always spend a few seconds watching that guy. Damn funny.

Yes very funny! I want to send that Sir Alex guy an email to inform him of the highlight reel of his clownish act running 24/7 all over a public forum. That should lead to more stress and arms being pumped up and down like a bird that can't fly :D

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Post #: 41

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/10/2009 10:33:27 AM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I tend to be fairly forgiving of footie managers in that context (and I'm NOT a Man United fan). After all, I know enough fans who do that... why shouldn't the manager? Some people just have to vent off the frustration or explode (or, as is not infrequent in the profession, have a heart attack). It's not something most can control, even Capello has been know to lose his rag on occasion.

But seriously...he does look like he's a little spoiled child that hasn't got his way. And yes, footballers are like it also. 'Bout time the FA clamped down on amount of disrespect within the game...and I think that should come down to managers and filter through.

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 42

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/10/2009 1:56:00 PM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

TulliusDetritus, who's that freaky old guy in your signature video? The added balloon and red nose are funny.

Sir Alex Ferguson. Manager of Manchester United and all round top whinger and w*****r

EDIT: Although "Big" Sam Alardyce runs him close IMO

It figures that guy is from sports, where so much cool thought prevails. They just don't make them like Tom Landry anymore! That guy is probably nothing compared to Bobby Knight though (the man who has thrown metal chairs onto the basketball court).

(in reply to Dixie)

Post #: 43

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/10/2009 6:43:27 PM

mack2

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It's not like it was a nothing game though. It was probably United's third biggest match of the year (the bigger ones being the CL Final and the League Cup final, with a few of the EPL matches thrown in).

Never mind though, won the League (unlike a few other rival teams who will remain nameless).

Glory Glory Man United.

(in reply to Charles2222)

Post #: 44

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/11/2009 12:50:14 AM

105mm Howitzer

Posts: 447
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline

You should xheck out hockey coache's rants and raves. One even tossed a hockey stick to the ref. He got sanctionned fo that little error.

Go Liverpool- You'll Never Walk Alone-

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Post #: 45

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/11/2009 2:43:47 AM

hgilmer3

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I'm with you EUBanana. Although I do have Empire totalwar. PITA game. I don't have a completely bad computer and it still runs like crap.

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Post #: 46

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 1:55:52 PM

Charles2222

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Here's the maniac I spoke of (he needs red horns instead of red nose):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvRO2GE4x4M

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Post #: 47

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 3:10:31 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

Posts: 2459
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

canceled, along with the new Total War game, and numerous other games.

Same here, Empire Total War which would have been a must have game for me (I have the others) instead will have one less customer.

I bit on this one, and it was a mistake.

BTW, you can't play the game without it going off to the steam server to validate your license.

Beyond the invasiveness, that means that if there's a problem with your connection (or theirs), you can't play.

Bah!

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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Post #: 48

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 3:27:32 PM

Anthropoid

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Only game I ever had that involved one of these validation things was Half-Life, which used the "Steam" thing, and yes I found it annoying. Wow that was like 10 years ago . . .

Hopefully you guys who are projecting/hoping that it is a declining trend are totally correct. I hate to think that a company that does its best to make good games is losing revenue to pirates. Pirates are ultimately the source of this evil, and they should be made pariahs and treated with as much loathe and disdain as one can possibly express through cyberspace. But nonetheless, punishing paying customers is not the solution.

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Post #: 49

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 7:13:29 PM

Perturabo

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I'd rather say that some publishers/developers are the ultimate source of the problem. They and gamers who buy their games.

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They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 50

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 7:30:58 PM

Anthropoid

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Oh I agree that the companies that resort to these draconians measures are not 'innocent' per se.

But I think it must be pointed out that, no rational business man would choose to do something that would alienate his customers if he didn't feel some sort of important need to do so. A business person wants to make money from his customers and alienating them is a sure way to reduce money you make from them.

In sum, if it was not for piracy in the first place, these companies would be very unlikely to have resorted to these measures. Thus, the conclusion I reach is this: the companies certainly should be dissuaded from adopting these measures, and us communicating our dissatisfaction, and intent to impose a moratorium are certainly reasonable actions.

But I think even more importantly, piracy must become an utterly unacceptable habit among gamers. To be a pirate should be considered the most heinous of 'crimes' against your fellow gamer community because it is the root-cause of these problems. If there were no pirates, there would be no draconian security measures.

I would not be bothering to say this if I had not, on various forums over the years, encountered threads or exchanges in which various people made light of piracy, or else did not explicit sanction against it. Right here on the Matrix site not long ago some guy was talking about buying an illegal copy of a game in Poland, and I was the only one to speak up and tell him that that was illegal and it should not be done. If we as a sub-culture want these commercial hassles to fade away completely, then it behooves us to not only take action against the companies but against our fellow 'cheater' pirate gamers.

In short, any time you encounter any hint of piracy, query it, and if it appears to be happening, report, sanction against it, and alienate those who seem to implicitly if not explicitly legitimate it.

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Post #: 51

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 7:44:20 PM

Perturabo

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And how much would I be paid for participating in this war against piracy? Would I get a 50% discount or something like that?

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RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 8:00:50 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

And how much would I be paid for participating in this war against piracy? Would I get a 50% discount or something like that?

Reward to us gamers for fighting piracy in our ranks instead of blaming the companies?

How about a gradual shift in the social and market dynamics of our hobby and its sub-cultures: increased quality of product, greater diversity of offerings, improved ease of purchase and installation, greater accessibility of support, reductions in price, more innovative and pioneering designs, better and more judicious expansions and updates, more creative risk-taking, etc.?

Do I _know_ that in a gamer sub-culture world where "piracy" became as unacceptable as say "racism" is in society in general that these benefits would automatically, universally, and rapidly accrue for us? No.

But based on general consumer market principles in the global economy, and in particular in highly-engaged socially-manifest online markets like computer-based gaming, I can I argue that these are the very likely, indeed, almost inevitable general consequences of the sort of shift in gamer consciousness that I'm proposing.

If piracy reduces, game makers will not feel a need to alienate their paying customers.

One small complication that I want to acknowledge which does throw a fairly serious monkey wrench into my 'revolutionary agenda:' IIRC a large fraction of intellectual property infringement, i.e., piracy, and a large fraction of the global gamer market is in Asia and involves guys who are probably unlikely to participate in predominantly English-speaking forums like the ones 'we' participate in. But there is a long history of consumer trends in "The West" being exported into these non-Anglophone (or more broadly "non-Western" markets because I am aware that English is not a native language for many of you), so ultimately, it seems reasonable to suppose that the Asian gamer scene would follow 'our' lead.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 6/13/2009 8:01:11 PM >

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Post #: 53

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 9:32:54 PM

Perturabo

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Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

How about a gradual shift in the social and market dynamics of our hobby and its sub-cultures: increased quality of product,

Not really. Increased quality of product would require fighting against publishers/developers who release unfinished games (i.e. every one of them).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

greater diversity of offerings,

In what way?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

reductions in price,

Why reduce prices when there's no piracy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

more innovative and pioneering designs,

How?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

better and more judicious expansions and updates

How?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

more creative risk-taking, etc.?

How?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Do I _know_ that in a gamer sub-culture world where "piracy" became as unacceptable as say "racism" is in society in general that these benefits would automatically, universally, and rapidly accrue for us? No.

I agree with you here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

One small complication that I want to acknowledge which does throw a fairly serious monkey wrench into my 'revolutionary agenda:' IIRC a large fraction of intellectual property infringement, i.e., piracy, and a large fraction of the global gamer market is in Asia and involves guys who are probably unlikely to participate in predominantly English-speaking forums like the ones 'we' participate in. But there is a long history of consumer trends in "The West" being exported into these non-Anglophone (or more broadly "non-Western" markets because I am aware that English is not a native language for many of you), so ultimately, it seems reasonable to suppose that the Asian gamer scene would follow 'our' lead.

It would probably mean that soon there would be no such thing as an Asian gamer scene.

Anyway, maybe I'll join your little civil war when there will be any friendly gaming companies (i.e. ones that release finished products, adjusts prices to market in countries that aren't in rich west and don't have intrusive DRM) that need defending.

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Post #: 54

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/13/2009 10:27:16 PM

Anthropoid

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I sense that you harbor a sense that "they" are the enemy and that they are out to take advantage of us. And yet, you play their games? How is that consistent or rational?

Shrinkage increases costs; higher operating costs reduce quality; risks reduce product diversity and innovation; higher operating costs (e.g., from more cumbersome security measures) reduce resources to allocate to other areas like support. Piracy is a variable that has an influence in each of these basic economic relationships. Insurance fraud for example, has a dramatic effect on insurance premiums; malpractice suits have an effect on medical expenses, etc. An industry plagued with shrinkage from piracy, and higher operating costs from defensive measures is just not going to provide as much satisfaction to customers as it might with lower shrinkage and lower operating costs.

Do you not regard Matrix as a friendly company? I do.

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Post #: 55

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/14/2009 3:48:17 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

And how much would I be paid for participating in this war against piracy? Would I get a 50% discount or something like that?

When I'm at home playing a game and I see pirates walking by on the sidewalk down below my window, I always fire a burst or two of 9mm hollowpoint at them. So I need a discount to help cover my ammo costs.

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Post #: 56

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/14/2009 3:57:08 AM

Perturabo

Posts: 2614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I sense that you harbor a sense that "they" are the enemy and that they are out to take advantage of us. And yet, you play their games? How is that consistent or rational?

How?
1. I had to get some experience to form my opinion about it. It had to involve buying games for some time. It would be a bit silly to stop playing games I bought some time before just because I came to conclusion that I don't really like their developers/publishers.

2. My buying habits have definitely changed - I don't buy games as soon as they come out any more because they are too expensive and unfinished. I usually buy them after them when they are finished and much less expensive or preferably, in a bargain bin.
Actually the only games that I bought last year were WPO, BiN and BiI which I bought mainly because they looked quite sad in a bargain bin.

3. A few times I've returned games to store (Fallout Tactics because it was crashing very often and Hammer & Sickle because it had Starforce).

4. I don't buy new hardware for games any more. Games have to work on my hardware, if they won't, I'm not interested in them.

6. I don't buy games that require activation or have weird DRM.

7. I stopped telling my friends to buy original games.

8. I started telling my friends that buying games before they are finished and prices drop is bad.

9. I started telling my friends that buying games with DRM is bad.

So, I used to buy new games as soon as they are published for about 165PLN and full of bugs and preach against piracy and now I buy only games when they are finished and have reasonable price and I preach against certain practices of publishers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

higher operating costs reduce quality;

Getting away with lack of quality reduces quality - you would be amazed if you'd see how efficiently and diligently workers can work when they are underpaid and threatened with getting fired (I know it from living experience - I worked as a cleaner in a factory for a month - the thieving employers wanted me to do high quality work in very bad conditions for 1 GBP per hour. I got myself fired after that month by getting sick, but there was a lot of people who were grateful to be able to work there and not starve - they worked very fast and very good - that's because there was proper Q&A and there were consequences for doing a bad work.
Also, even if releasing a finished game would kill the developer/publisher, they could simply write a big warning that the game is unfinished and maybe give a guarantee that they will finish it in a limited period of time - just like cigarette companies have to warn that cigarettes can kill.
Actually, in my country omitting such an important information is as illegal as piracy (not that anyone cares).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

risks reduce product diversity and innovation;

Here. Also, here
Also, most of innovative games suck.

Then there's a question:
Why would a mainstream developer make a niche game (because taking in account how Matrix Games still exists, piracy doesn't prevent more diverse gaming outside the mainstream) when he can use the same resources to make a mainstream game that will sell 20x more copies?

quote:

Do you not regard Matrix as a friendly company? I do.

It's a mixed bag.
Not having DRM would be 1/3 friendly.

Prices - hmm... there were some releases in Poland, but it was an epic fail thanks to the Polish publisher (a weird publisher which is quite new on the market) who didn't control distribution (i.e. spammed hyperstores with these games and some of them ended up in the west) and set prices way too cheap (instead of making a 1$ = 1PLN conversion that would compensate the difference in incomes and would result in something like 60PLN for a copy, these morons sold it in special "strategy and tactics" series for 20 PLN - because it's obvious that a game without 3D graphics isn't worth more

).
Anyway, it would be nice if there was another attempt for that, this time with controlled distribution (online store to Poland or Poland to and other post-communist countries only) and controlled prices (fixed price of 60 PLN for a game, without decreasing it because the game has more than 2 years), because right now most of grognards in Poland can't afford these games - from what I've seen, all the interested people from one forum usually bought the polish editions, but only the ones who work abroad bought from the other Matrix games.
So, that would be 1/6 friendly.

Summing up, it would be 1/2 friendly.

Now there are some things like managing to turn a few big CC communities which were waiting for CC re-releases with hope and excitation into hate sites...

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Post #: 57

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/14/2009 1:50:13 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

And how much would I be paid for participating in this war against piracy? Would I get a 50% discount or something like that?

When I'm at home playing a game and I see pirates walking by on the sidewalk down below my window, I always fire a burst or two of 9mm hollowpoint at them. So I need a discount to help cover my ammo costs.

That's the SPIRIT!!

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Post #: 58

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/14/2009 1:55:38 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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So Perturabo, are you saying that you think piracy is warranted?

Or are you just arguing that: Piracy is not so significant that the companies are justified in treating the way they do? DRM in particular, but even the way Matrix treats us?

Believe me, I am definitey one to demand that consumer product manufacturers provide better service, and I can agree with you that, they will get away with what they perceive they can get away with.

Computers, general distribution software, cell phones, insurance . . . those industries are rife with unethical shady corporations that do all kinds of things to stab the consumer in the back. What is distinctive about computer-based strategy-games (and I'm not talking the full computer-game spectrum here, just the strategy segment) is that we are a small, close-knit, highly socially engaged, outspoken, intelligent, and demanding demographic. I think we do a pretty good job of pushing them to give us more overall, without lapsing into "piracy is justified" land.

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Post #: 59

RE: For anyone who thinks online activations aren't a p... - 6/14/2009 3:58:09 PM

sapper_astro

Posts: 300
Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

So Perturabo, are you saying that you think piracy is warranted?

Or are you just arguing that: Piracy is not so significant that the companies are justified in treating the way they do? DRM in particular, but even the way Matrix treats us?

Believe me, I am definitey one to demand that consumer product manufacturers provide better service, and I can agree with you that, they will get away with what they perceive they can get away with.

Computers, general distribution software, cell phones, insurance . . . those industries are rife with unethical shady corporations that do all kinds of things to stab the consumer in the back. What is distinctive about computer-based strategy-games (and I'm not talking the full computer-game spectrum here, just the strategy segment) is that we are a small, close-knit, highly socially engaged, outspoken, intelligent, and demanding demographic. I think we do a pretty good job of pushing them to give us more overall, without lapsing into "piracy is justified" land.

Piracy is not being stopped by these latest idiotic DRM's. The pirates have crushed them within a day maximum. Meanwhile, the customer has to live with the rubbish and never really owns their own game. The pirates' copy meanwhile, will always be there, easy to install and never needing "Big Papa" to gain the net handshake that will allow an install/play the game. At least two people I know will buy a game, and then download the pirate copy to keep and play with. Others just download the pirate copy.

I myself have not bought at least 20 games that I can think of off the top of my head. This within a three year period, with more before then. They would have been sure buys. Once I learned of the DRM, be it Starforce (If anyone knows of a starforce free copy of Silent Hunter 3, let me know) or even worse, the back-to-base system, I immediately forgot about them. This started with HL2 and has progressed on to today.

DRM wastes company money, pisses of buying customers, and gives pirates enjoyment cracking each new system. It doesn't do anything positive, apart from lining the coffers of DRM producing companies. God only knows how they make companies believe their hopeless systems stop pirates. I am guessing the management in software companies are largely airheads when it comes to the items they produce and sell.

(in reply to Anthropoid)

Post #: 60