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"First Internet" the "key" to Winni... - 6/11/2009 3:15:51 PM

Anthropoid

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Not sure the best forum to put this on on Matrix . . . I know there is some Battle of Britain type game in development, but not sure where it is. Ah well, most regulars seem to browse WiTP, and it gets the most traffic so maybe best place to put it?

Watched an instant Netflix episode last night "History Channel Battlefield Detectives: Battle of Britain" last night, and I was just a little bit surprised at a couple points it made. They interviewed two or three Ph.D. miitary historian type guys who seem to focus on research on this battle, so maybe its not so crazy.

Main theme: longstanding "mythos" that the battle was won because of: (a) the incredible Spitfire airplane and (b) brave plucky Brit pilots, was not exactly true. Both Spitfire and the pilots were definite part of why the Germans lost, but just a part of a much larger issue: an integrated air defense system, which one scholar at one point is quoted to say "the first internet." This being the civilian observers, the radar, the sector air commands, and observer collation systems, all networked within the larger Fighter Command system.

First, they claimed Spitfire was not so great after all. They referred to computer sims testing Me109 and Spitfire that concluded Me109 was better in diving and climbing, not to mention the (undisputed) superiority in speed and firepower. Spit was better at turning only.

Second, they argued that the Vick tactical formation used by the Brits was actually deficient to the one used by the Germans, forget the name of that one. . . [ADDIT: thanks to Gladiatt, "Schwarm" or "Four Fingers"]

Third, the Me109 burnt up too much fuel, meaning that by the time pilots were over England, they were nervous about their fuel gauge and getting distracted from their best effort in air combat by their fear of running out of fuel and having to ditch in the channel or on the beach in France.

What do you guys think? Recommended books?

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 6/11/2009 3:41:32 PM >

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 3:19:52 PM

gladiatt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Second, they argued that the Vick tactical formation used by the Brits was actually deficient to the one used by the Germans, forget the name of that one. . .

The "schwarm" ?? or "four fingers" ?

(in reply to Anthropoid)

Post #: 2

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 3:40:15 PM

Anthropoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Second, they argued that the Vick tactical formation used by the Brits was actually deficient to the one used by the Germans, forget the name of that one. . .

The "schwarm" ?? or "four fingers" ?

Yeah! That sounds right!

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 3:43:58 PM

gladiatt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Second, they argued that the Vick tactical formation used by the Brits was actually deficient to the one used by the Germans, forget the name of that one. . .

The "schwarm" ?? or "four fingers" ?

Yeah! That sounds right!

For the rest, i think other threadster could find valuable info, but i think i remenber that the germans fighter had something like 10 to 20 mn of fuel above england: something really short, even shorter if getting involved in a dogfight. By the way, the allies were in the same state of mind when they biggin to raid germany in 1942, with short legged planes....

(in reply to Anthropoid)

Post #: 4

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 3:55:13 PM

Mynok

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I still say the basic, core reason that Britain won is because Goering and Hitler made the idiotic decision to stop bombing airfields and air defense installations and start bombing cities.

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Post #: 5

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 4:00:40 PM

joey

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The game you might be talking about Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich. It cover the Battle of Britain and the subsequent bombing of Germany.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 6

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 4:10:30 PM

RHoenig

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I thought this was common knowlege (excelent organization of fighter command, short legged Bf 109s, superior german fighter formation, roughly equality of Bf 109 and Spitfire).

And I absolutely agree with Mynok: Switching target from airfields to cities, just when fighter command was starting to hang in the ropes was incredibly stupid

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 7

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 4:35:10 PM

Hard Sarge

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depending on alt and all, the Spit was just a tad faster then the 109, but...

the 109 could outclimb the early Spits and Canes, and also outdive them (the RAF fighters had to roll onto there backs to dive, or they would stave there engines of air)

even with the radar, most Squadrons of RAF fighters, never were able to get above the Germen raids, the statement, beware the hun in the sun, was just as true in the 2nd WW as it was in the 1st (of course, with air combat, there is never such a thing as never, and most times the guy on top is soon the guy on the bottom and what not)

the Spit gets fame, but the Cane did most of the dirty work

one that most people don't like to admit, the 109 shot down more fighters, then they lost, so the 109 did well, of course, the hassle with that line of thought is, there 110s, 111s, 88s and 17s along for the ride, and they didn't fare as well, not to mention the 87s

(one of the myths depending on the side, is the RAF shot the 87s out of the battle, but, most of them were with Luft3 in the south, and were to be transferred to Luft2, by the time they transferred, it was decided to hold them back for the ground support part of the battle, which never came)

one area, I have always liked, was, what if the planes were changed, give the LW the Spit and the Cane and give the RAF the 109 and the 110 ?, I really believe that now, the 109 would be the hero of the battle, it was much better for that role, and the Spit and Cane were just about as shortlegged as the 109 was, and turn rate means nothing when you are trying to defend bombers, plus the weapons for the 109 and 110 were better suited for the anti bomber mission, then the 8 303 MGs the RAF fighters carried

the 110 as a slashing attack fighter, would of worked well

but...

the Vic was a bad formation, the 2 wingmen spent too much time trying to stay in place, the RAF also set up a weaver, some one who flew back and forth over a squadron in flight, the weavers got shot down alot, with out anybody ever knowing it, think it took until 1942 for this idea to finally be dropped

the 8 303 MGs may of been a decent weapon load, but most times, they were set to converge too far out, the Aces learned in a hurry that they needed to be set much closer, and at times, had to break orders from above to do so

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 4:43:52 PM

Radio

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How long did the offensive against cities last? I was under the impression that the second daylight raid on london incurred such heavy losses the Germans switched to night raids. Was their an earlier campaign against smaller towns? The speed with which the Luftwaffe switched to night raids would indicate they were pretty much on the limit as well as fighter command. The switch to bombing towns wasn't taken in a vacuum but in the context of mounting casualties. How much longer could the Luftwaffe have kept up daylight raids?

Most entirely defensive battles are fought by outlasting the attackers will to fight rather than killing the last attacker, so perhaps the battle was lost when the Luftwaffe stopped trying to tackle fighter command directly and switched to a more asymmetric form of warfare?

(in reply to RHoenig)

Post #: 9

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 4:59:18 PM

Anthropoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RHoenig

I thought this was common knowlege (excelent organization of fighter command, short legged Bf 109s, superior german fighter formation, roughly equality of Bf 109 and Spitfire).

And I absolutely agree with Mynok: Switching target from airfields to cities, just when fighter command was starting to hang in the ropes was incredibly stupid

Actually, _that_ part of it, the episode differs with a little bit. Now again, we're dealing with a pop-culture translation of primary scholarship it seems. But it _does_ appear that there is some solid scholarship going on in recent years on which these ideas (whether they are confirmations or revisions of prevailing wisdom) are based.

They have a section where one of the key scholar Bangay? Is talking with some other academic type, who did a complex Computer Simulation (imagine that! computer simulations of warfare for the sake of historical analysis!! Shocking I know!) that included most of the known variables (supposedly, though they didn't mention if it had a leader bug or not). According to this model, the Luftwaffe was "beating itself" so badly (they show a comparison of a line graph of number of luftwaffe planes and number of Brit and at some point about 3 months post September the Luftwaffe line, which is on this steady downward slope for the whole figure, crosses the Brit line which is showing slight flux up and down but basically steady-state, and the luftwaffe are kapoot). They then haev Bengay or whoever he is asking the other guy "So it doesn't matter that the Luftwaffe changed to city targets? They were depleting themselves too quickly no matter what they were doing? And at the point in time where conventional wisdom suggests the Fighter Command was 'close to being on the ropes' they were actually already in the process of winning?" and the computer simulation guy shakes his head: yep, thats right, they would've won no matter had the luftwaffe kept bombing the airfields or not.

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Post #: 10

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 5:17:07 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Not sure the best forum to put this on on Matrix . . . I know there is some Battle of Britain type game in development, but not sure where it is. Ah well, most regulars seem to browse WiTP, and it gets the most traffic so maybe best place to put it?

Watched an instant Netflix episode last night "History Channel Battlefield Detectives: Battle of Britain" last night, and I was just a little bit surprised at a couple points it made. They interviewed two or three Ph.D. miitary historian type guys who seem to focus on research on this battle, so maybe its not so crazy.

Main theme: longstanding "mythos" that the battle was won because of: (a) the incredible Spitfire airplane and (b) brave plucky Brit pilots, was not exactly true. Both Spitfire and the pilots were definite part of why the Germans lost, but just a part of a much larger issue: an integrated air defense system, which one scholar at one point is quoted to say "the first internet." This being the civilian observers, the radar, the sector air commands, and observer collation systems, all networked within the larger Fighter Command system.

First, they claimed Spitfire was not so great after all. They referred to computer sims testing Me109 and Spitfire that concluded Me109 was better in diving and climbing, not to mention the (undisputed) superiority in speed and firepower. Spit was better at turning only.

Second, they argued that the Vick tactical formation used by the Brits was actually deficient to the one used by the Germans, forget the name of that one. . . [ADDIT: thanks to Gladiatt, "Schwarm" or "Four Fingers"]

Third, the Me109 burnt up too much fuel, meaning that by the time pilots were over England, they were nervous about their fuel gauge and getting distracted from their best effort in air combat by their fear of running out of fuel and having to ditch in the channel or on the beach in France.

What do you guys think? Recommended books?

I wholeheartedly reccomend the following book:

Fighter
by Len Deighton

Amazon link -> Fighter: The True Story of the Battle of Britain (Hardcover)

Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 11

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 5:23:15 PM

Anthropoid

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quote:

To those who feel Fighter is simply 'military history', it must be stressed that the Summer of 1940 was a magnificent expression of human endeavour. Pilot and crew bravery, tenacity in striving for goals on both sides is presented with Deighton's fine prose. Deighton shows that today's world would be drastically different had the Luftwaffe succeeded in its attempt to clear the way for an invasion. This book is a choice selection for an understanding of what the Battle of Britain was all about.

Sounds good. I think my wife might even like that one! Thanks Apollo11!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Not sure the best forum to put this on on Matrix . . . I know there is some Battle of Britain type game in development, but not sure where it is. Ah well, most regulars seem to browse WiTP, and it gets the most traffic so maybe best place to put it?

Watched an instant Netflix episode last night "History Channel Battlefield Detectives: Battle of Britain" last night, and I was just a little bit surprised at a couple points it made. They interviewed two or three Ph.D. miitary historian type guys who seem to focus on research on this battle, so maybe its not so crazy.

Main theme: longstanding "mythos" that the battle was won because of: (a) the incredible Spitfire airplane and (b) brave plucky Brit pilots, was not exactly true. Both Spitfire and the pilots were definite part of why the Germans lost, but just a part of a much larger issue: an integrated air defense system, which one scholar at one point is quoted to say "the first internet." This being the civilian observers, the radar, the sector air commands, and observer collation systems, all networked within the larger Fighter Command system.

First, they claimed Spitfire was not so great after all. They referred to computer sims testing Me109 and Spitfire that concluded Me109 was better in diving and climbing, not to mention the (undisputed) superiority in speed and firepower. Spit was better at turning only.

Second, they argued that the Vick tactical formation used by the Brits was actually deficient to the one used by the Germans, forget the name of that one. . . [ADDIT: thanks to Gladiatt, "Schwarm" or "Four Fingers"]

Third, the Me109 burnt up too much fuel, meaning that by the time pilots were over England, they were nervous about their fuel gauge and getting distracted from their best effort in air combat by their fear of running out of fuel and having to ditch in the channel or on the beach in France.

What do you guys think? Recommended books?

I wholeheartedly reccomend the following book:

Fighter
by Len Deighton

Amazon link -> Fighter: The True Story of the Battle of Britain (Hardcover)

Leo "Apollo11"

ADDIT: at the risk of getting this "off rails" [but I just cannot resist

] re: some of the recent threads about whether D-Day was necessary, whether the Soviets won it by themselves, blah, blah, blah . . .

They interviewed a guy who had been 19 year old Brit pilot in the battle in the episode I watched. He referred to a quote by a German General being questioned during the Nuremberg trials. The General was asked "When do you think Germany started to lose the war, was it Stalingrad, was it summer 1944, when?" to which the General responded "It was the summer of 1940, and the loss of the Battle of Britain."

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 6/11/2009 5:24:53 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 5:26:40 PM

Mike Scholl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the Vic was a bad formation, the 2 wingmen spent too much time trying to stay in place, the RAF also set up a weaver, some one who flew back and forth over a squadron in flight, the weavers got shot down alot, with out anybody ever knowing it, think it took until 1942 for this idea to finally be dropped

The Japanese were still flying it in 1942....

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 13

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 5:49:24 PM

DivePac88

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Yes I think some fighter units used 'Vee' or 'echelon' three fighter formations till the end of the war.

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 6:21:16 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Not sure the best forum to put this on on Matrix . . . I know there is some Battle of Britain type game in development,

Why put it here? This forum is clearly titled "War in the Pacific," which is a game. You obviously don't want to talk about a game, as you immediately start wandering off in some ostensibly history-related direction.

So take it to the "General Discussion" forum.

Oh. If you're looking for a forum about a Battle of Britain game in development, try going to the "Games in Development" category and check out the one called "Battle of Britain."

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Post #: 15

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 6:44:27 PM

m10bob

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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Not sure the best forum to put this on on Matrix . . . I know there is some Battle of Britain type game in development,

Why put it here? This forum is clearly titled "War in the Pacific," which is a game. You obviously don't want to talk about a game, as you immediately start wandering off in some ostensibly history-related direction.

So take it to the "General Discussion" forum.

Oh. If you're looking for a forum about a Battle of Britain game in development, try going to the "Games in Development" category and check out the one called "Battle of Britain."

The truth will set you free............................

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Post #: 16

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 8:01:49 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
(they show a comparison of a line graph of number of luftwaffe planes and number of Brit and at some point about 3 months post September the Luftwaffe line, which is on this steady downward slope for the whole figure, crosses the Brit line which is showing slight flux up and down but basically steady-state, and the luftwaffe are kapoot). They then haev Bengay or whoever he is asking the other guy "So it doesn't matter that the Luftwaffe changed to city targets? They were depleting themselves too quickly no matter what they were doing? And at the point in time where conventional wisdom suggests the Fighter Command was 'close to being on the ropes' they were actually already in the process of winning?" and the computer simulation guy shakes his head: yep, thats right, they would've won no matter had the luftwaffe kept bombing the airfields or not.

Where's the proof that the British line would have kept going straight. Most of the evidence I've read is that fighter command was in desparate straights to keep a viable force in the air right about the time the LW switched methods. It allowed the RAF to 'catch a breather'.

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Post #: 17

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 8:05:52 PM

skrewball

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Why not put it here?

This is the most active and informed forum on Matrix. 9/10 of the other forums hardly have any posts. Frankly I feel any WWII topic should be welcomed here.

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Post #: 18

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 8:59:52 PM

RHoenig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
(they show a comparison of a line graph of number of luftwaffe planes and number of Brit and at some point about 3 months post September the Luftwaffe line, which is on this steady downward slope for the whole figure, crosses the Brit line which is showing slight flux up and down but basically steady-state, and the luftwaffe are kapoot). They then haev Bengay or whoever he is asking the other guy "So it doesn't matter that the Luftwaffe changed to city targets? They were depleting themselves too quickly no matter what they were doing? And at the point in time where conventional wisdom suggests the Fighter Command was 'close to being on the ropes' they were actually already in the process of winning?" and the computer simulation guy shakes his head: yep, thats right, they would've won no matter had the luftwaffe kept bombing the airfields or not.

Where's the proof that the British line would have kept going straight. Most of the evidence I've read is that fighter command was in desparate straights to keep a viable force in the air right about the time the LW switched methods. It allowed the RAF to 'catch a breather'.

To beat the same horse

AFAIK, it wasn�t number of planes, the RAF could put in the air (productions seems to have kept up with losses more or less), but pilots.
And not simply number of pilots, as many of those shot down over England, obviously made it to the ground safely. It was more a burnout thing.
I imagine, being on readiness 12+ hours a day and being called in the air quite often will have an impact on your combat readiness after a few weeks.

So a simple statistical projection of losses against each other won�t cut it, IMO

I have to admit, I heaven�t read a book especially dedicated to the BOB, just a bunch of WW2 literature,but that�s my take on it

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Post #: 19

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 10:07:53 PM

crsutton

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Generally, stuff you see on the history channel is pretty weak. Yes all three points are valid but there are many other factors leading to the German setback in the Battle of Britian. Most significant was the state of the German airforce and the lack of German industrial capacity to rectify it.

Although the comparison between the spit and 109 as fighters can be argued, both fighters were short legged interceptors. The spit was fine for the job at hand but the fact that the 109 could not even range over half of the British Isles pretty much negates any advantage that it had. You can't win a war without projecting airpower over enemy airspace and as a "air superiorty" fighter, the 109 was a total failure-leaving the ME110 as the only alternative for close escort, and we know how that worked out. Germany went into the battle with some very good tactical bombers but no real battle winning strategic bomber. Say what you want, but it all comes down to payload when you want to close down an enemy and the German bombers of the era just did not have it.

Combine this with the fact that the Brits were actually outproducing the Germans in aircraft at the time of the battle and you can see where things were heading. I know that a lot is made of how close the Germans were to closing down the British air defenses, and then they made a critical change in tactics. However, I doubt that German industry could meet the demands to sustain the effort much longer-not to mention to provide the additional planes needed to support any invasion.

I don't think the battle was a close as some would.

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Post #: 20

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/11/2009 10:56:18 PM

wworld7

Posts: 1727
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quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

Frankly I feel any WWII topic should be welcomed here.

Well I feel this is the WITP Forum and threads outdside this theater should be moved to a more correct forum or the General Forum if there is not one.

IMO, better organization makes easier reading for everybody.

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Post #: 21

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/12/2009 2:01:29 AM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Not sure the best forum to put this on on Matrix . . . I know there is some Battle of Britain type game in development,

Why put it here? This forum is clearly titled "War in the Pacific," which is a game. You obviously don't want to talk about a game, as you immediately start wandering off in some ostensibly history-related direction.

So take it to the "General Discussion" forum.

Oh. If you're looking for a forum about a Battle of Britain game in development, try going to the "Games in Development" category and check out the one called "Battle of Britain."

There's a lot of smart guys who hang out on the WiTP forums who I never see posting in other sections, and I enjoy hearing what smart guys have to say.

ADDIT:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
(they show a comparison of a line graph of number of luftwaffe planes and number of Brit and at some point about 3 months post September the Luftwaffe line, which is on this steady downward slope for the whole figure, crosses the Brit line which is showing slight flux up and down but basically steady-state, and the luftwaffe are kapoot). They then haev Bengay or whoever he is asking the other guy "So it doesn't matter that the Luftwaffe changed to city targets? They were depleting themselves too quickly no matter what they were doing? And at the point in time where conventional wisdom suggests the Fighter Command was 'close to being on the ropes' they were actually already in the process of winning?" and the computer simulation guy shakes his head: yep, thats right, they would've won no matter had the luftwaffe kept bombing the airfields or not.

Where's the proof that the British line would have kept going straight. Most of the evidence I've read is that fighter command was in desparate straights to keep a viable force in the air right about the time the LW switched methods. It allowed the RAF to 'catch a breather'.

Its a good question Mynok, and I certainly don't know the literature well enough to answer, but it sounds like several of these guys-=-or at least Crsutton!-=-concur that the idea that Brits were on the ropes might not have been so accurate.

But your RHoenig does seem important. The computer model they talked about in the episode was just focused on planes, not personnel.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 6/12/2009 2:06:51 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/12/2009 2:22:22 AM

Mynok

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Joined: 11/30/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Combine this with the fact that the Brits were actually outproducing the Germans in aircraft at the time of the battle and you can see where things were heading. I know that a lot is made of how close the Germans were to closing down the British air defenses, and then they made a critical change in tactics. However, I doubt that German industry could meet the demands to sustain the effort much longer-not to mention to provide the additional planes needed to support any invasion.

But the Germans did sustain bombing for a good while longer, even though they changed tactics to be sure. If they hadn't, it is quite possible their losses would have dropped dramatically as the British air defenses lost cohesiveness. And RHoenig is quite right to point out that pilots were probably more critical than planes. It's of course true that the Germans were bleeding air crew faster, but they were wearing the Brit pilots to ribbons...a commodity that was much harder to replace.

It's all speculation of course, but fun nonetheless.

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/12/2009 11:46:51 AM

rtrapasso

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quote:

an integrated air defense system, which one scholar at one point is quoted to say "the first internet."

Aside from gross exaggeration for marketing purposes, i don't see how this could be called "the first internet"... sensor stations linked by a network of electronic communications? Well, they had that in the US Civil War, iirc (telegraphs-> HQ)... unless somehow attacking airplanes were necessary to make an internet.

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/12/2009 1:16:36 PM

Anthropoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

an integrated air defense system, which one scholar at one point is quoted to say "the first internet."

Aside from gross exaggeration for marketing purposes, i don't see how this could be called "the first internet"... sensor stations linked by a network of electronic communications? Well, they had that in the US Civil War, iirc (telegraphs-> HQ)... unless somehow attacking airplanes were necessary to make an internet.

Oh, I'm not here to advocate or defend the claims made, just bring the truth so it can set you free

. . . but yeah, I tend to agree. It does raise the question doesn't it? If a network of civilian observers linked into a aircraft command network, and a central aircraft deployment headquarters constitutes an "internet" then what other preceding information distribution and reaction systems also might constitute an internet? Telegraph does come to mind, but heck, didn't the Romans have a fairly extensive system of signal towers set up to convey messages rapidly across the Empire in some places?

I guess to get the full answer that the guy who actually said it in the episode might give you'd have to read his book. Of course he has a book! Why would have have been on History Channel in the first place if not to sell his book!

Here's the link to the amazon page for it The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of Britain, by Stephen Bungay

ADDIT: now I'm feeling like I started this thread to help Bungay sell his book, which is definitely not the case. But it does seem that the central messages in that episode which I found surprising were primarily coming from his book, based on this Amazon reviewers comments.

quote:

Unlike Americans, who have an uncommon love of bragging about everything from the trivial to the terrific, the English have a fondness for understatement that tends of ignore the reality of their accomplishments.
When the Soviets asked Field Marshall Gerd von Rundstedt, the Wehrmacht's most senior operational commander, which battle he considered as the most decisive of the war in Europe. They expected him to cite Stalingrad, instead he said, "The Battle of Britain."

Had the Germans won the Battle of Britain, England could not have won the Battle of the North Atlantic and may well have been forced to accept peace terms similar to France. According to former War Minister Hore-Belisha, "the Tory party in the House were not very interested in the war, were afraid for their possessions and of the rise of Labour . . . . . " The Russians may well have defeated Germany, but that would have left all of Europe under Soviet control, not merely the eastern half of Europe as eventually happened.

The English myth of the Battle of Britain is similar to stories about Sir Francis Drake and the Spanish Armada in 1588, when Drake preferred to finish a game of bowls before sailing out to rout the Spanish. In 1940, the myth created by Churchill is that "Never before has so much been owed by so many to so few." Like Dunkirk, the image was one of luck, pluck and mucking through the confusion, ineptness and amateurism. Bungay shows the triumph of British planning and readiness.

The German image, reinforced by quick and easy defeats of Poland and France, was that of an impregnable military machine guided by highly experienced professionals using superior technology with the rigorous discipline of well trained and effective troops. In contrast, the British were thought to be slightly dowdy country squires lucky enough to deny victory to the superb German military. Much of this legacy is based on the image of the Munich Agreement of 1938, which has ever since been used to describe English politicians as too weak to fight and too scared to rearm.

Reality is quite different. Bungay explains the British victory was based on a superb plan of operations and aircraft development that began in earnest in 1936 and was rigorously carried out in 1940. The basic idea was developed in 1922. Instead of being unprepared and underarmed, Britain was perhaps the world's best prepared and best armed nation in terms of air defense in the 1940s. The result was a decisive British victory which left the Luftwaffe crippled.

To summarize, the British fought the Battle of Britain with a Teutonic thoroughness for organization, planning, discipline and effort; they left little to chance, planned for the worst cases and didn't rely on luck. In short, the British behaved like Germans at their best, though these qualities were tempered and restrained by the civility of traditional English life. The Germans fought with a British thoroughness for bickering, personal petty disputes and trusting in an ability to muddle through; it is hardly an accident that two of the top German commanders committed suicide as a result of the internal wrangling and bitterness within the Luftwaffe high command.

In 1940, the British knew they needed a united effort if they were to win; the Germans didn't adopt a similar attitude until mid-1945, when they realized they would need a united effort if their country was to survive in the post-war period. The British, in 1945, having won through a magnificent team effort, changed governments and embarked on an "I'm all right, Jack" philosophy backed up by union strikes designed to win the maximum benefit for their members even at the price of national economic survival.

Maybe the British should learn to boast . . . . .

However, the irony today is that the epitome of English luxury, the Rolls Royce automobile -- once a product of the same company that in 1940 built engines for Spitfires -- is now powered by engines made by the same company that built engines for the Me-109s that failed so ingloriously in 1940.

But, is that something to boast about?

quote:

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 6/12/2009 1:27:14 PM >

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/12/2009 1:25:26 PM

rtrapasso

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quote:

Telegraph does come to mind, but heck, didn't the Romans have a fairly extensive system of signal towers set up to convey messages rapidly across the Empire in some places?

True, and i was going to bring it up, but decided you might want the communication to be instantaneous (i.e. - it would be at the other end of the line of communications as fast as it could be put into the transmitting format, day or night, in essentially any weather).

A Radar History of World War 2 has some interesting comments on the British radar: it was known (at the time) as (something like) the "steam driven radar" in that it was extremely primitive in comparison with the other radar systems available, HOWEVER: it was linked in a systematic fashion which made it the most effective system in the world at the time (bar none)... this backs up the points of the original author, but it is hardly an original point of view by History Channel or Stephen Bungay.

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/12/2009 1:43:35 PM

Anthropoid

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Well if nothing else, and I realize this makes me ignorant of the historical details to admit that I was surprised here . . . but hey, you learn something everyday: there seems to be no lack of consensus in one of the key themes of this episode that I found intriguing and surprising.

It was not simply a bad ass airplane and brave pilots that determined that battle.

The Spitfire and the British pilots certainly contributed, but issues of German supply (short-legged fighters), German bombers vulnerability, and an integrated information and command and control system are absolutely essential to a full explanation of why the battle was a British victory. I like hearing conclusions like that, i.e., that it is not single pieces of technology, nor great bravery on the part of a small or even a large group of people, but good STRATEGY that wins battles. Kinda makes playing these games seem like not such a waste of time after all.

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/12/2009 2:34:23 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

the Vic was a bad formation, the 2 wingmen spent too much time trying to stay in place, the RAF also set up a weaver, some one who flew back and forth over a squadron in flight, the weavers got shot down alot, with out anybody ever knowing it, think it took until 1942 for this idea to finally be dropped

The Japanese were still flying it in 1942....

The Shotai was not the same thing as a Vic.

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RE: "First Internet" the "key" to W... - 6/12/2009 2:48:29 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

What do you guys think? Recommended books?

Of the 5 or so books i've read, i'd most recommend:

"Eagle Day" by Richard Collier
"The Battle of Britain: The Myth and the Reality" by Richard Overy
"Duel of Eagles: The Struggle for the Skies from the First World War to the Battle of Britain" by Peter Townsend

For a bigger focus on the pilots and how they factored and developed in the prewar situation with their organization, training, elan etc.....:

"Fighter Boys: The Battle of Britain, 1940" by Patrick Bishop

On the documentary:

The most important factor was Fighter Command's defensive network and organization. This, along with the operational tactics used allowed the British, fighting defensively, to maintain competetiveness and bloody the bomber force. This ultimately negated any minor preformance differences between the principle fighters as well as the German pilot experience edge + superiority of their basic fighter tactics (more flexible Schwarm vs. the rigid formation and outdated group attack tactics of the British) The British also refused to play the german's game in similar vein to that facing the Japanese over Guadalcanal....going after the bombers primarily vs. meeting the sweeping and/or escorting fighters to be convieniently shot out of the sky.

Exaserbating factors for the Germans were the vulnerability of their bombers due to weak defensive armament, low endurance of the 109....the inability of the Me-110 to fullfill it's expected role as an adequate long range escort, and perhaps most importantly of all....the extremely poor German INTEL which failed to pinpoint the key sector stations, the importance of the radar and comm net and the state of British fighter production.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 6/14/2009 2:52:16 AM >

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