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RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 3:40:38 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I'm confident that it's a good quality manual though,

Trouble - I say we got trouble - right here in River City. That starts with T, which rhymes with P, and that stands for poor writing.

Could we get this in something other than an obscure Ethiopian dialect? Also, it tends to ramble on (apologies to Led Zeppelin). A good editor, I am sure, could reduce this by one third and make it far more understandable, as well.

A brief example:







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 6/11/2009 3:50:44 AM >

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 31
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 3:41:21 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Looking at the manual I really wish the enconomy and production was explained in more detail! The manual just tells you what something does and not how something really works (cause and effect). I didn't see any of the screens of information explained in the manual.

Just like WITP, you only see the total amount of Heavy Industry with no way of knowing how much is being used by aircraft production, ship production, armaments, etc. There no way to know the cost of increasing (doubling) an aircraft factory until you already increased it!

If you build more naval Shipyards it speeds up ship arrival but by how much, what does it cost and is it worth it, you don't know until you do it (that's too late)?

If you turn off a factory is there any way to know or see the cost savings?

There is no way to see costs or savings when you do something with production that was my biggest issue with production in WITP and it looks like that hasn't changed in AE.


(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 32
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 4:00:12 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Here you go, have a look at the front page:
Enjoy!

I'm enjoying, but, man, all those TF type icons are gonna be hard to distinguish from each other when displayed in teeny tiny size on the map. What do you think about an overlay acronym in a contrasting color that would make clearer what the TF is (the following suggestion is only that).





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 33
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 4:02:09 AM   
Kitakami


Posts: 1302
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: The bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline 		Thanks for the sneak peek at the manual! It just increased my apetite, sorry to say, but it hints at a much better game, so will be waiting for release with anticipation. Great work, AE team :D

_____________________________

Tenno Heika Banzai!

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 34
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 4:10:46 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Looking at the manual I really wish the economy and production was explained in more detail! The manual just tells you what something does and not how something really works (cause and effect). I didn't see any of the screens of information explained in the manual.

Fair call, but we aren't seeing the whole manual.
quote:


Just like WITP, you only see the total amount of Heavy Industry with no way of knowing how much is being used by aircraft production, ship production, armaments, etc. There no way to know the cost of increasing (doubling) an aircraft factory until you already increased it!

Economics on a national level, is certainly not an exact science, and neither is it in WITP. I disagree here mostly cause there is a direct causal relationship between some of these (Arm and VEH). On a micro level (turn by turn) Aircraft and engine factories can't exactly be defined for HI use, cause different numbers can be produced each turn because there is a random element. On a Macro level (monthly), there is a better ability to define this HI use.
So if you double a one engine fighter factory (and it becomes fully repaired) from say 60 to 120. Monthly this will increase the HI USE by:
60*18 = 1080 /mth or 1080/30 = 36/day (ON AVERAGE) PLUS ADDED ENGINE HI
quote:


If you build more naval Shipyards it speeds up ship arrival but by how much, what does it cost and is it worth it, you don't know until you do it (that's too late)?

Well it is not really true, you need to accelerate ships, not build more Shipyards, unless you are over budget. Sure there is no interface to show this exactly, and would have been a nice inclusion, but it is not impossible to calculate / play with (utils).
quote:


If you turn off a factory is there any way to know or see the cost savings?

Calculating it is pretty easy, turning off a 100 Arm factory will save 100*6 =600 HI/day
quote:


There is no way to see costs or savings ...

Overall I'd say use a util or as YH says take a note of what each is doing and adjust accordingly. At least what we do here takes a day to change, in RL, economic policies take months (or never) to see the effects thereof.


Not poo - pooing your thoughts, just saying it isn't impossible to learn or to adjust to. And GG, was never really good at implementing great user interface information, and I never thought they were going to tackle this area anyway ... (maybe WITPII). For one, I'm happy that there are more levels economically, and would have liked to have seen even more

--Damian--
[edit] still, this forum is being hijacked by me, so I'll stop talking economics here.

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 6/11/2009 4:13:12 AM >

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 35
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 4:15:59 AM   
TSCofield

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 5/12/2001
From: Ft. Lewis Washington
Status: offline 		Looks great, even better than WITP. I got a headache just reading it.

Looking forward to doing the review.



_____________________________

Thomas S. Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
t.co0field@comcast.net (stopped the SimHq mail since I get nothing but spam)

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 36
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 4:39:55 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Trouble - I say we got trouble - right here in River City.


Sorry Pasti, obviously English Professors were in short supply during manual editing time!


_____________________________

AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 37
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 4:52:48 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Economics on a national level, is certainly not an exact science, and neither is it in WITP.


Good saying.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 38
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 4:57:00 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Trouble - I say we got trouble - right here in River City.


Sorry Pasti, obviously English Professors were in short supply during manual editing time!


Here I was.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 39
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 5:02:20 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Looking at the manual I really wish the economy and production was explained in more detail! The manual just tells you what something does and not how something really works (cause and effect). I didn't see any of the screens of information explained in the manual.

Fair call, but we aren't seeing the whole manual.
quote:


Just like WITP, you only see the total amount of Heavy Industry with no way of knowing how much is being used by aircraft production, ship production, armaments, etc. There no way to know the cost of increasing (doubling) an aircraft factory until you already increased it!

Economics on a national level, is certainly not an exact science, and neither is it in WITP. I disagree here mostly cause there is a direct causal relationship between some of these (Arm and VEH). On a micro level (turn by turn) Aircraft and engine factories can't exactly be defined for HI use, cause different numbers can be produced each turn because there is a random element. On a Macro level (monthly), there is a better ability to define this HI use.
So if you double a one engine fighter factory (and it becomes fully repaired) from say 60 to 120. Monthly this will increase the HI USE by:
60*18 = 1080 /mth or 1080/30 = 36/day (ON AVERAGE) PLUS ADDED ENGINE HI
quote:


If you build more naval Shipyards it speeds up ship arrival but by how much, what does it cost and is it worth it, you don't know until you do it (that's too late)?

Well it is not really true, you need to accelerate ships, not build more Shipyards, unless you are over budget. Sure there is no interface to show this exactly, and would have been a nice inclusion, but it is not impossible to calculate / play with (utils).
quote:


If you turn off a factory is there any way to know or see the cost savings?

Calculating it is pretty easy, turning off a 100 Arm factory will save 100*6 =600 HI/day
quote:


There is no way to see costs or savings ...

Overall I'd say use a util or as YH says take a note of what each is doing and adjust accordingly. At least what we do here takes a day to change, in RL, economic policies take months (or never) to see the effects thereof.


Not poo - pooing your thoughts, just saying it isn't impossible to learn or to adjust to. And GG, was never really good at implementing great user interface information, and I never thought they were going to tackle this area anyway ... (maybe WITPII). For one, I'm happy that there are more levels economically, and would have liked to have seen even more

--Damian--
[edit] still, this forum is being hijacked by me, so I'll stop talking economics here.



I think you just made my point - AE a game for tax accountants!

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 40
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 5:05:19 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
I never thought they were going to tackle this area anyway

Dawg, I still wish they hadn't. Aircraft engine production? Please.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 41
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 5:24:12 AM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline 		A few minor manual errors for consideration:

There is a missing word in 8.2.1.1
A unit in Reserve Mode that is forced to retreat and has not been will have their
Op Mode changed to Combat and are retreated with the other units in the hex.
I assume this should say "has not been released"

13.2.2.4, 13.2.2.5, 13.2.2.6
The formulas talk about the number of "xyz" factories, but other usage talks about, for example, a "20 point vehicle factory" - implying this is one factory. In fact, later in the same paragraph it describes this as "the factory", i.e., singular . Could change "number of xyz factories" to "number of xyx factory points"
13.3.1.1 is similar, where in the first two sentences it talks about converting "an aircraft factory" having an effect of "reduction in the number of aircraft factories."

Page 308 (section before 21.0)
Seems to be self-contradictory - it says the Allied reports are only generated if the Allied password is entered, but then says "Presently, all reports are generated and are available to both players." Am I confused?

Many, many occurrences of "it's" instead of "its" (OK, that's nit-picky)


(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 42
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 6:00:42 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad
Many, many occurrences of "it's" instead of "its" (OK, that's nit-picky)



There are nits aplenty to pick with this manuscript. Some are even as big as gnats. Heck, a lot of 'em are newt-sized. You could even nuke it and start fresh...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to erstad)
Post #: 43
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 7:04:45 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		page 76
No Task Force Symbols shown for Air Combat?

page 80
Safer - defines a routing path that avoids know significant emeny air concentrations; and
(and What)?


page 315
An 'Army base force supports a division plus of LCU's, but few aircraft.

page 316
>>army base force supports LCU's but, no aircraft.


(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 44
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 8:38:13 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad
Many, many occurrences of "it's" instead of "its" (OK, that's nit-picky)



There are nits aplenty to pick with this manuscript. Some are even as big as gnats. Heck, a lot of 'em are newt-sized. You could even nuke it and start fresh...


Okay, check back in a couple of years...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 45
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 8:57:28 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Here you go, have a look at the front page:

www.matrixgames.com

Enjoy!


Thanks Erik!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 46
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 9:12:34 AM   
R Clewer

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 6/11/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for putting the preview up, it almost makes me dare to hope the game will be out soon.

One comment though, the training levels for ground forces seem based more on some sort of national prejudice than historical reality.  Canadian troops only get a max of 50% yet in Europe they performed pretty well.  The US Marines get 65% yet their combat record in terms of performance is patchy.  I can understand training limits on Chinese troops and perhaps on Dutch, Indian, main line US, Japanese, British etc. non combat troops but the variations don't make sense when you look at the actual history.  I would have thought maximum training experience should be the same with some elite units able to go higher due to intensive training (and I don't mean marines or Australians but Ranger Battlions).  Moral is what makes some of the other units stand out historically.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 47
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 9:15:51 AM   
moose1999

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		Great looking manual!

Will we be so fortunate to see the PDF version updated as time progresses and patches come out/changes are made to the game?

That is my one big gripe with almost all Matrix games - because support from developers is generally so good , many patches come out and often very significant changes are made to the game and the manual often becomes pretty much obsolete within a year after the release.

So, updated PDF-manuals released once in a while would be a BIG plus...!
Especially with a mastodont game like WitP.

Is it a possibility?


_____________________________

regards,

Briny

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 48
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 9:22:06 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
I'm enjoying, but, man, all those TF type icons are gonna be hard to distinguish from each other when displayed in teeny tiny size on the map. What do you think about an overlay acronym in a contrasting color that would make clearer what the TF is (the following suggestion is only that).



I think you will find with use that even an old set of eyes become adept at reccognizing and differentiating the important ones. I've had two cataract surgeries in the last 18 months, but I can still do it with the ones I am interested in keeping track of.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 49
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 12:30:15 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Thanks to Erik, Joe and the rest of the Matrix team! Not only did you guys keep your promise, the fact that you let us preview the message shows that you really do listen and hear us!

Many, many thanks! (And don't worry about the minor critism, it's all small stuff. People who were given a million dollars will complain that now they have to pay taxes!)



BRAVO ZULU!!!!

_____________________________


(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 50
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 3:11:12 PM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		I do agree with pasternakski on the general readibility, but I have come to expect that with most game manuals.  Economy of words is not necessarily the solution but rather making sure it's explained so a 5th grader can understand it.  That's how I write memorandum (considering the average reading level of a judge is somwhere around 6th grade, I cushion things just a bit).

The printed manual does indeed look great.  Glad to see it's a legible font size as well.  My eyes are still sore from the HTTR manual. . .


_____________________________

________________________
www.azcrimes.com
<sig removed because I'm a bandwidth hog>

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 51
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 4:39:17 PM   
TR Shrum

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 2/13/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks Erik and the Matrix Team for the Manual preview.  I don't care about any typos, left out words, or grammer.  I'm a big boy, I'll figure it out.  Besides, I know how to use Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, Acrobat, etc.  If I want to fix things or change things I will.  I'm just pleased that someone is doing the vast amount of work on AE and making it available to the consumer.  I'll buy the product and make/mod it the way I want, and then enjoy playing the thing my way for the next 30-40 years.  Thanks for all the work, sweat, and treasure expended on this product.  I'm looking forward to using my Am Exp card.

Thanks again.

(in reply to Crimguy)
Post #: 52
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 5:07:26 PM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline 		I should mention that my posting a few items for consideration (missing words, etc.) was prompted by Erik's comment that they might update the PDF version. It is in no way a criticism of the manual or the incredible effort that the AE team has put in. It looks like the AE manual is going to be far better than the original (and final :-( witp manual.

Now if we could just buy that game...

(in reply to TR Shrum)
Post #: 53
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 6:49:27 PM   
hbrsvl

 

Posts: 1155
Joined: 10/2/2002
Status: offline 		Hi-Here are my(preliminary) nit pickins'.

1.What are recon type aircraft? SOC, OS2us,Cats, Mariners, etc?
2. Are Recon & naval search missions the same? Or, does a Naval search mission have elements of recon in it?
3. Pgs 320&321-Allied Economy. Are there numbers associated with the "resources required" for Hawaii, oil and/or fuel for India, Australia, etc.?

Or, are all these type questions answered when we get the full manual?

Now, non-nit pickins'- GREAT job so far. This is like a cup of water to a guy in the desert-but the thirst is STILL there. Right on, guys.

Hugh Browne

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 54
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 6:51:42 PM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline 		Erik,

thanks a lot for supplying us with the fragment. I think this is a very clever way to make sure a manual is being read... just provide it ahead of a game everyone is waiting for. Maybe you should make that a company policy.

Hartwig

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 55
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 7:30:40 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Erik

Many thanks for this release. About a third through my fourth read!


_____________________________

1966 was a great year for English Football...Eric was born


(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 56
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/11/2009 11:51:46 PM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline 		WOOT! 

WOW, its really starting to hit home this pig might fly

Thanks to all you guys to put so much of your time to put AE together!


_____________________________


(in reply to cantona2)
Post #: 57
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/12/2009 4:01:16 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks guys. To those that posted corrections, I will make sure those are addressed in the final PDF manual. I expect that at some point after release we will also update that again, but not with every update.

As far as rewriting for more economical language or just better writing style, sorry but that's not happening at this point. One thing to realize is that, as with everything in AE, the manual was a team effort. Every team contributed in their area and in a few others and each team had one or more writers. This then went through several editors (including on the team and in Matrix, including yours truly) and many proofreaders, but there will be definite differences in writing style and voice as a result of that process.

Pasternakski, if you're volunteering to help us out with manual editing in the future, be careful what you wish for! I certainly acknowledge that we could always use more help in that area though and good writers and editors are very hard to find, especially on our budget. What would you like to help with, World in Flames perhaps?

I still think that compared to most game manuals, this is a good one and it's simply several magnitudes better than any previous documentation for War in the Pacific has been IMHO. I'm glad it has helped some of you prepare and get excited for AE.

One more thing, when AE is very close to release (i.e. within a week) we will make the full AE PDF manual available to registered owners of War in the Pacific so that you'll be as ready as you can be to jump in once you receive your copy by download or mail. So if you haven't already registered in our Members Club, you may wish to do so now.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to CarnageINC)
Post #: 58
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/12/2009 4:08:00 PM   
uncc


Posts: 448
Joined: 6/1/2002
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

One more thing, when AE is very close to release (i.e. within a week) we will make the full AE PDF manual available to registered owners of War in the Pacific so that you'll be as ready as you can be to jump in once you receive your copy by download or mail. So if you haven't already registered in our Members Club, you may wish to do so now.

Regards,

- Erik




_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once -- David Hume, Scottish philosopher (1711 - 1776)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 59
RE: War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition Manual Preview - 6/12/2009 5:59:09 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
One more thing, when AE is very close to release (i.e. within a week) we will make the full AE PDF manual available to registered owners of War in the Pacific so that you'll be as ready as you can be to jump in once you receive your copy by download or mail. So if you haven't already registered in our Members Club, you may wish to do so now.
Regards,
- Erik


Whoa, I'd better get busy! Important things on my list:

1. Prepare to break vow of celibacy (for those who don't know what that is, read my thread about my vow to give up WitP/AE for six months).

2. Identify capable, dedicated Jap opponent (Miller, are you listening) who wants to jump right into a game (and also doesn't mind getting whooped by the good guys.)

3. Prepare for intense feelings of guilt as I spend the next 2.3 years way to involved in a "stupid" game! (After all, "real" life is much more important, right? Right?)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 60
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