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Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 6:28:23 AM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		Evening everyone. First of all some quick things about me. Although not what I would call a hardcore gamer, I do consider myself far more involved than the average casual gamer. In other words, I don't mind sacrificing a little bit of realism and historical accuracy for playability and fun, and as a general rule I tend to shy away from excessive micromanagement and 'spreadsheet' games. I get enough of that at work. ;o)

Also, I currently have three Matrix games: Operational Art of War Two and Uncommon Valor; both which I enjoyed very much in spite of their moderate complexity, and Carriers at War which I did not like.

Having said that, I'm looking for recommendations in the following areas:

World War Two (especially Eastern Front)
American Civil War
Napoleonic Wars

I know Matrix has any number of games in these categories (especially WW2 of course), so I'd be curious to hear any recommendations from other players before I spend my hard earned cash.

Speaking of which, I can't understand why Matrix doesn't have demos available for their games. This is pretty much SOP in the general PC gaming world. What's up with that?

One more thing. The Great Invasions game seems interesting. Anyone played it? I'm wondering what this game can deliver that Creative Assembly's Total War series doesn't?

Thanks.

Post #: 1
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 8:11:02 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


Posts: 358
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		Matrix produces games for small companies that can't afford to make demos.  If we got demos, games would take longer to come out and companies would have less time to improve on the game itself and move onto new projects.

For the eastern front, one of the best games is Kharkov Disaster on the Donets, and for a non-Matrix game but very good for eastern front fighting is Blitzkrieg 2 Fall of the Reich.  I never played any civil war or napoleon era games so other people can recommend stuff.  I think Forge of Freedom is the best civil war game from what I see on the forums.


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RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 8:23:17 AM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
Joined: 3/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda
1. World War Two (especially Eastern Front)
2. American Civil War
3. Napoleonic Wars


My two cents on this:

1. WitP, but ("imminent") release of AE and MWiF should be taken into consideration.
2. Forge of Freedom has given me 100s of hours of gameplay.
3. Crown of Glory:Empire's Edition is alot of fun, espesially with pbem.

But I feel that the best way to go is to look at the forums to see what other people say, and to look at AARs/screenshots to see if it looks like it is something you thinkk you would like or not.

Terje

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Post #: 3
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 8:36:17 AM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
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From: Los Osos, CA
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quote:

World War Two (especially Eastern Front)



John Tiller's Campaign Series

Hundreds of scenarios, hundreds of unique units, and easy to play.

Includes East Front, West Front, and Rising Sun for a mere $35.

'Nuff said!

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Post #: 4
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 8:57:25 AM   
JudgeDredd


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From: Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439


quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda
1. World War Two (especially Eastern Front)
2. American Civil War
3. Napoleonic Wars


My two cents on this:

1. WitP, but ("imminent") release of AE and MWiF should be taken into consideration.
2. Forge of Freedom has given me 100s of hours of gameplay.
3. Crown of Glory:Empire's Edition is alot of fun, espesially with pbem.

But I feel that the best way to go is to look at the forums to see what other people say, and to look at AARs/screenshots to see if it looks like it is something you thinkk you would like or not.

Terje

I'd go with both highlighted but instead offer CotA (Conquest of the Aegean) for the World War II fix. You will not find another World War II engine like it. If the "arena" of CotA doesn't fit, try HTTR (Highway to the Reich)...same engine but set in a more familiar arena.

As for the demo question, it isn't SOP in the wargaming world...and certainly not SOP for smaller companies. Alot of niche games for a niche market - that means no sales in the region of Half Life 2 or Prototype, ergo no money to make a decent demo. And add that to the fact that you cannot make a half baked demo of a wargame. If a potential buyer is going to get anything from the demo, it needs to be in depth enough to sell. Along with that in depth look at at the game, comes a hefty manual to get the details through. A demo of an in depth wargame is not the same as producing a demo for Half Life 2. Demos for FPS games tend to be one or two levels...possibly the most intense levels...and if they've programmed it right, it won't cost anything at all to strip two levels out of an FPS game to make a demo.

As an example, I once downloaded the demo for AA:RDoA (Airborne Assault:Red Devils Over Arnhem). This was the sequel to HTTR. The documentation that came with it was pretty poor if I remember rightly and I just didn't get the game. That demo "almost" made me miss out on the series (RDoA, HTTR and CotA) and possibly the best C&C representation in a computer game to date.

So demos in the indepth wargaming world do not necessarily work.

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Post #: 5
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 9:16:54 AM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks very much guys for the responses.  I will definitely put the games you mentioned on my short list. 

Kharkov: Disaster of the Donets did catch my interest while I was browsing the games, though I would prefer it had been the 1943 (Manstein's 'backhand blow') battle of Kharkov.    As an aside, I recall playing the 1942 Kharkov scenario years ago in TOAOW, and man, that was a tough one as the Germans.  I think I got a draw or marginal victory by the skin of my teeth! 

I also think I would enjoy the John Tiller series.  I didn't realize it had a lot of scenarios.  Finally, I will keep Crown of Glory and Forge of Freedom in mind as well. 

Also, thanks for the explanations on the lack of demos.  You guys bring up some good issues that I'd not really thought of.  Yes, I agree, Matrix is definitly not Blizzard or Electronic Arts. 

Best regards,

John   

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Post #: 6
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 10:00:50 AM   
Tomus

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 9/22/2003
From: UK
Status: offline 		I would recommed COTA as well. I know its an unfamiliar setting but its the best game engine out there.

Disaster on the Donets is excellent as well.

Have you considered the Panzer Command series? Personally I love them.

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Post #: 7
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 2:36:31 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
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From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda
World War Two (especially Eastern Front)


You already have ToaW, so I'd say try something more tactical like the SPWAW remake or for a more operational game try any of the Decisive Battles games. They're more beer and pretzels than ToaW, but they're fun to play. The only problem is you don't get very many scenarios per title with those games, which prompted me to stop buying them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda
American Civil War


I'd recommend AGEOD's Civil War game, I prefer it to Forge of Freedom. Between the two AGEOD's game is far more realistic, but FoF has a decent tactical battle system that AGEOD's game lacks. So in the end it's a matter of personal taste. If you prefer to fight the battles tactically, get FoF. If you want a more accurate simulation about the civil war, get AGEOD's game.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda
Napoleonic Wars


I prefer Empire in Arms to the Crown of Glory remake. Both games are good and bad in their own ways, but between the two EiA is more realistic. CoG has artificial army size limits that can sometimes generate battles where all your artillery and cavalry show up but none or very few of your infantry due to these artificial limits.

A decisive battle that sees this happen can ruin an entire game. For me it was a game breaker, I haven't played it since.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 6/21/2009 2:37:57 PM >

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RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 4:55:13 PM   
Arsan

 

Posts: 409
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Hi

I don't buy at all that small developer can't make demos or that demos for wargames are a bad idea.
The example Judgedread talks about just worked the other way around for me.
The RDoA demo opened my eyes to the most excellent and groundbreaking system the game used and make me a fan of the Panther game Airborne Assault series. YMMV i guess...
Besides the importance about letting you know how a game plays, looks and feels, demos also have another very useful advantage: they actually let you know if the game will work in your system or no and id would look good at your resolution or on a wide screen LCD.

JRodda,
AGEOD have demos of all their games (which kind of proves that small companies can make demos if they just want to ) so you can try AGEODs American Civil War (the best game on that subject IMHO) and also give a try to AGEOD Napoleons Campaign.
Not as good and polished as the ACW one, but still a very interesting game.
You can get the demos from here
http://www.ageod.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=147

Regarding a WW2 recommendation somo of the Airborne Assault series (Conquest of The Aegean or Highway to the Reich) are awesome and a complete change form more traditional (even if good) turns and hexes games like TOAW.

Cheers


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Post #: 9
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 5:09:24 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda

Having said that, I'm looking for recommendations in the following areas:

World War Two (especially Eastern Front)

Steel Panthers World at War

'nuff said

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Post #: 10
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 10:25:30 PM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		Wow guys, thanks so much for all the responses.  This is a great forum.  Also, don't mean to be overly sentimental, but I think I detect a lot of kindred spirits here.  I could probably chat with you guys for hours on military history and gaming.  

You know, some of you guys have got me really curious about the Conquest of the Agean.  The trouble is, I'm not sure I'm in the mood for that particular campaign, though I do admit that the battle of Crete was a fascinating study in combined air-sea-land operations. 

Anyway, I will probably make a purchase before the day is over, and from what you guys have posted I think I have it narrowed down to the following:

AGEOD Napoleon's Campaigns - Looked at the screen shots and love them!  They look very colorful and atmospheric, with pictures of the Marshalls.  I think atmosphere in a game is very important in helping the player to get in the spirit of the campaign being simulated.  Hopefully it has gameplay to match the beautiful graphics.

AGEOD American Civil War - Ditto above. 

Kharkov: Disaster on the Donetz - This game looks fantastic, several of you have recommended it, and I am definitly in the mood for a good imersive Eastern Front game.  Also, I'm sure I'll have to put my war helmet on for this one, as I know it was a VERY tough battle.

John Tiller's Campaign Series - An easy to play WW2 system with hundreds of scenarios?  Works for me. 

Thanks again,

John 



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Post #: 11
RE: Looking for Recommendations - 6/21/2009 10:53:55 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline
quote:

John Tiller's Campaign Series - An easy to play WW2 system with hundreds of scenarios? Works for me.


Did I say hundreds?
Well if you count all the user-made scenarios on sites such as the Blitz.org and Wargamer.com.....you'll have THOUSANDS.
(Quick count on Wargamer lists 403 scenarios!)

Not to mention the dozens of dynamic campaigns and historically based linked campaigns.

If you give me the dates of the Kharkov battles you're interested in, I can look it up in my East Front scenario directory and tell you what's included.

ChadG


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Post #: 12
John Tiller WW2 - 6/21/2009 11:10:40 PM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks Chad.  Ok, the first is the famous 'Miracle of the Donets' (Feb-Mar 1943) where von Manstein counterattacked in the South, halted the Soviet advance, and basically stabilized the front after the Stalingrad debacle.  This was the last significant German victory in WW2. 

The second is Kursk (either northern or southern attacks).  I know, I know, I'm a glutton for punishment with this one, but I've always been fascinated by Kursk, possibly the greatest battle the world has ever known. 

John   

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Post #: 13
RE: John Tiller WW2 - 6/21/2009 11:42:53 PM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline
quote:

Thanks Chad. Ok, the first is the famous 'Miracle of the Donets' (Feb-Mar 1943) where von Manstein counterattacked in the South, halted the Soviet advance, and basically stabilized the front after the Stalingrad debacle. This was the last significant German victory in WW2.


OK, I see:

Return of the LAH - 5 Feb. 1943
Not Another Stalingrad - 16 Feb. 1943
Popov's Doom - 23 Feb. 1943
Counterstroke at Ilovaysk - 28 Feb. 1943
The Razor's Edge - 5 Mar. 1943
Objective Kharkov - 11 Mar. 1943 (huge scenario!)
Tip Your Hat to the Tiger! - 12 Mar. 1943


And for Kursk:

Fangs of the Tiger - 5 Jul. 1943
A Taste of Kursk - 8 Jul. 1943
Dead End of the Road to Kursk - 12 Jul. 1943
Blood Moon - 12 Jul. 1943
Birds of Prey - 14 Jul. 1943
Hill 247 - 14 Jul. 1943


Now keep in mind these are just what come with the game....I know there's a monster user-made scenario called Prokhorovka - The Real Battle which is simply awesome.

Hope this helps,
ChadG

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Post #: 14
RE: Recommendations - 6/22/2009 12:41:21 AM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		Gosh, I feel that after all the great information you guys have given me, my decision has if anything become more difficult.  

Wow Chad, I had no idea the John Tiller game went down to such detail at such low levels.  From the looks of those scenarios, it seems like there are not one but 6-7 scenarios based on the early 1943 Manstein battles.  Also, upon further scrutiny, I'm reminded of the old Panzerblitz board game (platoons/company level). 

I'm currently downloading the AGEOD Napoleon demo, but the Tiller game is definitely still in the running.  I think that unless I'm blown away by the Napoleon demo, I'm ptrobably going to go for Tiller.  Also, just finished reading Ladislas Farago's Patton biography, so that's got me in the mood for the great Patton battles too, and if the scenario list you sent me is any indication, I'm sure Georgie is amply represented in the Tiller game.  Thanks. 

BTW, Kharkov: Disaster still seems very enticing, although it looks like it may have a steep learning curve.  Also hard to believe it only lasts sixteen turns.  Guess a lot must happen in those turns.  



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Post #: 15
RE: Recommendations - 6/22/2009 1:39:07 AM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		It looks like the John Tiller Campaign series won.   I think what decided it for me was it seems like it's easy to learn and play, has tons of scenarios (especially the battles of von Manstein as well Georgie Patton), and was relatively inexpensive.  Gosh, I'll bet it even has the siege of Dienbeinphu.    Thanks to Chad and everyone else for the recommendations.  

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Post #: 16
RE: Recommendations - 6/22/2009 2:12:18 AM   
TAIL GUNNER

 

Posts: 1152
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Los Osos, CA
Status: offline 		Damn, now I hope you like it!

Have any further questions or probs...just holler in the JTCS forum.

By the way...these games were based on PanzerBlitz.

Chad

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Post #: 17
RE: Recommendations - 6/22/2009 5:13:38 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


Posts: 358
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		Kharkov's learning curve is smaller than most games.  You can learn it just from watching the neat & easy video tutorials on the Matrix Kharkov forum in the war room.  It can even be played straight out of the box like I did with no experience from the previous Decisive Battles games and I wrote an AAR about the disaster.  Reading the manual helps you to set-up more effective attacks.

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Post #: 18
John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/24/2009 3:38:51 AM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		OK, I'll try not to be too long-winded here, but I would say on the whole I am enjoying the John Tiller game very much, notwithstanding a few minor issues here and there.  For one thing I think my rig might be a bit too fast for it, as I get this flashing light whenever I move the view quickly.  For another, I get the evil blue screen whenever I complete a scenario, though hopefully I will figure out how to avoid this.  Also, the controls seem a bit clunky at times compared to the big studio RTS games I'm used to.  Finally, I can see that big battles will take a long time, as the AI has to move each unit one at a time.  Because of this I will probably avoid campaigns beyond the battalion level. 

Still in all, after getting over a modest learning curve I am enjoying it and it seems like a lot of fun.  The only critical thing I haven't quite yet figured out is how to resupply units that are low on ammo, but I suppose I can pull up the manual for this.  I would say, however, that the game does seem a lot more realistic than the WW2 RTS games I've played.  I also felt compelled to mention that I really like the soundtrack, and at the risk of being politically incorrect, I loved all the German martial music (like the songs used in 'Battle of the Bulge' and 'The MacKenzie Break'.) 

Anyway, yes, I think it may very well become one of my favorite games after I get the hang of some of the detail and figure out how to get around that blue screen crash when finishing a mission.  It does seem like a tactical wargammer's dream.  Gosh, scrolling though all those scenarios I felt like a kid in a candy store. 

BTW, yes, I did nearly buy Kharkov, and I think this will be on my short wish list.  It looks like wargammer's heaven for intense gameplay and realism.  Also, I tried the AGEOD Napoleon demo, but didn't like it very much.  I don't know, maybe part of the problem was that I was in a bit of a hurry when I played it, and it seems like one of those games where you need to take your time and learn all the detail.  Still in all, I think I would prefer the Napoleon game that allows you to fight the tactical battles. 

John

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Post #: 19
RE: John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/24/2009 3:58:48 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		There is a thread in the JTCS forum about Vista and white flashing screen and how to fix it.

If you haven't found it yet, the top tool bar appears after pressing m while in the game.
There is an option for fast computer player.

You must read the manual to understand what is going on in this type of game.

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Post #: 20
RE: John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/24/2009 7:06:00 AM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		1) SPW@W Generals Edition for WW2 fix or even Advanced Tactics. If you've never played SPW@W there's a free edition you can download from this site to see if you like it.
1a) Not from this site, but, Combat Mission Barbarrosa to Berlin is an excellent tactical wargame of the Eastern Front. I've always felt if you have these two series of games you have the best of them all and don't really need to invest in any others unless you just want to experience some other kind of user interface and combat calculations.

2) Forge of Freedom by far is the best of the line of Civil Wargames out there right now. So many different setups and whatifs and tactical battles it offers the most value for your money and time.

3) Crown of Glory:EE made by the same company that brings you Forge of Freedom. Same qualities as above a lot of different setups and tactical battles and offers the most value for your money and time.

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Post #: 21
RE: John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/24/2009 7:32:53 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
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From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		Don't overlook Gary Grigsby's 'War Between the States' in the ACW stakes; it's the best of the three IMHO. All three have pluses and minuses but WbtS delivers something neither of the others do, it combines fast-play (relatively speaking) with surprisingly realistic event-chains and 'feel'.

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Post #: 22
RE: John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/24/2009 9:54:27 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
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From: Scotland
Status: offline 		GG WbtS is an awesome game. By no means "lite" but plays quite fast.

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Post #: 23
RE: John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/24/2009 10:02:19 PM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
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From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		John Tiller's Campaign Series FTW.

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Post #: 24
RE: John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/26/2009 2:14:08 AM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		OK guys, after a couple of hours of play I am beginning to really like this game.  I've been playing through some of the early Pacific Theater scenarios as the Allies defending against Japanese attacks (like the defense of Hong Kong).  I find these mostly infantry scenarios have been a good way for me to learn the mechanics of the game bits and pieces at a time, and referring to the manual when there's something I don't understand.  In fact I hope to be trained enough to perhaps start my much anticipated Winter 1943 Eastern Front campaign as the Germans this weekend. 

The only nagging issue has been that blue screen crash after answering 'No' when prompted if you want to save the game at the end of a scenario.  Guess I'll need to look in the technical support forums for this fix.

Thanks again guys for the recommendation.  

PS.....Been trying to avoid playing this game on weekday nights as it keeps me up too late.  Like a lot of you out there (I suspect), I'm mostly a weekend warrior.  

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Post #: 25
RE: John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/28/2009 9:03:48 PM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		OK, I've gotten through the first two battles of the 'Case Blue' campaign, and you guys that recommended this game were absolutely correct.  OMG, it is fantastic!  It just totally blows away all those WW2 real-time strategy games I've played.  It is indeed a computer version of the great board game Panzerblitz.  I'm not sure I've ever played such a deep, rich, and engrossing tactical game.  I was up until about 4AM last night playing the second Case Blue mission.  John Tiller created a real gem here. 

BTW, a word about the manual.  I can see how there would be value in reading it cover-to-cover.  Thus far though I've been able to learn the game by just playing it, and occasionally refering to the manual when I get confused or stuck on something (sort of like I do at work .

Also, the forum post about the flashing screen issue was correct.  Once I set my desktop to Windows classic, it fixed both the flashing screen and the end of game crash. 

Again, thanks everyone for the recommendations.  I think the John Tiller game should keep me in my weekend gaming fix until Blizzard finally gets around to releasing Starcraft 2!!!!  

PS......And yes, 'Crown of Glory' and 'Kharkov: DOTD' are on my short list. 

 

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Post #: 26
RE: John Tiller's Campaign Series - 6/29/2009 8:50:51 AM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda

Again, thanks everyone for the recommendations.  I think the John Tiller game should keep me in my weekend gaming fix until Blizzard finally gets around to releasing Starcraft 2!!!!  

Have you gone through Supreme Commander yet?

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Post #: 27
RE: Supreme Commander - 6/30/2009 12:50:09 AM   
JRodda

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/21/2009
Status: offline 		Yes Matti, as a matter of fact I have Supreme Commander.  I remember I started playing the demo, and after a few minutes I liked it so much I immediately went down to the local game store to pick it up.  It was a very impressive campaign, a lot of innovations in that game, and one of the more intelligent real-time strategy games out there.  I especially liked playing the Aeon Illuminate. I think my favorite moment was in the first mission when you clear out the enemy AA to make way for the female commander.  She comes in with her enormous flying saucer, drops the nuke, and just as the blinding flash engulfs the screen, she comes on the screen and shouts "Glorious!!!!"    BTW, I see Supreme Commander 2 is in development.

As an aside, I've played a lot of RTS games, and it seems that the AI's are often kind of a mixed bag.  The Matrix games I've played, however, seem to have very smart AI's.  OMG, the John Tiller AI put me through the ringer in my last 'Case Blue' mission!!! 

Cheers.
 
 

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Post #: 28
RE: Supreme Commander - 6/30/2009 1:03:49 AM   
V22 Osprey


Posts: 1593
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From: Corona, CA
Status: offline 		Supcom is a CPU heavy just warn you though.For the average computer the game becomes unplayable when the action really starts.

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Post #: 29
RE: Supreme Commander - 6/30/2009 10:11:36 AM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JRodda

As an aside, I've played a lot of RTS games, and it seems that the AI's are often kind of a mixed bag.

Funny thing about C&C3: in single player campaigns AI is scripted to play dumb but in skirmish scenarios it seems more intelligent than AI in SPWAW. I played demo of it (C&C3 that is), skirmish, there was meeting engagement between infantry, AI side turned around and took cover inside building!

And no, it wasn't routed and retreating to random direction as in SPWAW.


quote:


Supcom is a CPU heavy just warn you though.For the average computer the game becomes unplayable when the action really starts.

Yeah, prime reason why I still haven't bought game yet. And C&C3 & RA3 are plagued by DRM

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to JRodda)
Post #: 30
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