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Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 5:06:21 PM   
aciddrinker


Posts: 135
Joined: 2/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		How many of thai forces is added whit AE. There will be some restricted HQ for this LCU's if they be included?. And what about Japan puppet nations Navy? Thailand haved few old CL and DD's also some old SS, if i good remember manchuko haved also some small navy forces. Are this ships included also ?

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RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 5:09:09 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		You get 6 weak Thai infantry divs and 1 weak Cav Div in AE plus an HQ and a small Aviation company

No air or naval vessels

Andy

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Post #: 2
RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 5:09:42 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		They are fully restricted and  recommend a house rule not allowing them to leave SEA

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Post #: 3
RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 7:00:39 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Are there any Vichy French forces? Was the "Vietnam" special rule that created militia units in WITP amended or eliminated in AE?

What made me think of that is the Thai unit restrictions. Historically, I think the Japanese would have prevented the Royal Thai Army from moving into French Indochina, as that would anger the Vichy administration, which the Japanese needed to run things.

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RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 7:10:36 PM   
HMS Resolution


Posts: 350
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		I thought most of the Thai navy was wrecked by the French at Koh Chang anyway.

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RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 7:19:49 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		They lost those two big Coast Defense Ships. They still had 7 TBs, 2 relatively new Sloops, and 2 gunboats, but keeping them out of AE was the right choice. They sat in port and did nothing anyway. An enterprising Japanese player could use them much more aggressively.

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Post #: 6
RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 7:35:51 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Are there any Vichy French forces? Was the "Vietnam" special rule that created militia units in WITP amended or eliminated in AE?

What made me think of that is the Thai unit restrictions. Historically, I think the Japanese would have prevented the Royal Thai Army from moving into French Indochina, as that would anger the Vichy administration, which the Japanese needed to run things.


Vichy forces have not been included - apart from the coastal defense batteries at Haiphong, Cam Ranh and Saigon (which were controlled by the Japanese).

The VM militia units are still there, but they use their own squads + French equipment if triggered.

Thai forces - Historically interesting subject. We included them into the AE but still have some doubts if this was a wise choice despite the restrictions put on them. I'm quite sure that some players will find quite creative uses for them.

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Post #: 7
RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 7:37:16 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		I agree this was one of th ehardest calls we made and I am also still not convinced

Keep them in Thailand and everyone is happy !!!

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Post #: 8
RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 7:59:08 PM   
HMS Resolution


Posts: 350
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Here's Dhonburi, anyway. Cute little thing.

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RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 11:05:09 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Here is a good line drawing of Thonburi.....8in turrets




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RE: Thai forces. - 5/27/2009 11:10:45 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I agree this was one of th ehardest calls we made and I am also still not convinced

Keep them in Thailand and everyone is happy !!!


This seems like the best solution. From what I understand, they did nothing more than dip their toe in Burma, and hardly fired a shot all war.

I personally think Chinese Troops should also have house limits to reflect historical realities. No loading on ships, and not moving more than 300 miles or so from the Chinese border, basically Northern Burma, Vietnam, Outer Mongolia. I have read AARs with Chinese Corps wading ashore on Sumatra or Malaya, no chance of that IRL.

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Post #: 11
RE: Thai forces. - 5/28/2009 3:17:28 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		I agree the Thai Government as then and still today are all for Thai people and really don't care to much for outsiders hence they did not fight to much during the war keep to helping them selves, I know my wife to be is Thai.

Tiger!

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Post #: 12
RE: Thai forces. - 5/28/2009 2:47:42 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		OK, another question for the AE Developers along the same lines......

What do the Chinese Collaborationist and Manchukuo forces look like? I would think it's difficult to model forces that were very large on paper, and had some value as security troops, but virtually no value in any kind of real combat.

In certain WITP mods, the Japanese would start with some crappy Manchukuo units with experience levels of "10", but these would train up to acceptable combat ability within a few months.

Tough to model! What did you guys decide?

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RE: Thai forces. - 6/18/2009 6:06:52 AM   
afspret


Posts: 851
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Hanahan, SC
Status: offline 		Wasn't New Caledonia Vichy?  I seem to remember reading somewhere that they wouldn't co-operate with or let Ghormely set up his HQ on land in Noumea, but when Halsey took over, he really didn't give them a choice in the matter!  At the start of Scens 15 & 16 in WitP (the only ones I've played other than the tutorial),  Noumea and the surrounding bases all belong to the US and there is already a USN Base Force established @ Noumea.  So, if New Caledonia is Vichy, wouldn't it seem logical to have some French troops present?

I'm also going to buck the trend and say put all the Siamese land, naval & air units, along with those of Manchuokuo & the Chinese Collaborationist, at least in the data base (with 999999 arrival dates) and then let the players decided how or if to use them. 

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RE: Thai forces. - 6/18/2009 7:46:43 AM   
Jorm


Posts: 545
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret

Wasn't New Caledonia Vichy?  I seem to remember reading somewhere that they wouldn't co-operate with or let Ghormely set up his HQ on land in Noumea, but when Halsey took over, he really didn't give them a choice in the matter!  At the start of Scens 15 & 16 in WitP (the only ones I've played other than the tutorial),  Noumea and the surrounding bases all belong to the US and there is already a USN Base Force established @ Noumea.  So, if New Caledonia is Vichy, wouldn't it seem logical to have some French troops present?

I'm also going to buck the trend and say put all the Siamese land, naval & air units, along with those of Manchuokuo & the Chinese Collaborationist, at least in the data base (with 999999 arrival dates) and then let the players decided how or if to use them. 


No, new Caledonia wasnt 'vichy'. Some french controlled regions chose a semi independant path, not vichy but not wholey free french as defined by degaulle (sp?). Im sure one of our french WITP guys will be able to give correct details of the confused status of french units at the time.


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Post #: 15
RE: Thai forces. - 6/18/2009 7:00:25 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		New Caledonia was in fact just deciding if to join Vichy or FFL. There were some talks and one Corvette (or gunboat or aviso or something smaller then DD) with pro-Vichy capitain. But after some talks they joined the allies in oct 1940. No bigger armed unit present - maybe security and police.

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RE: Thai forces. - 6/18/2009 7:06:52 PM   
Skyland


Posts: 280
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline 		There was a small force with a coastal battery composed of four 95mm mle88 guns and two 20mm Oerlikon AA.

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Post #: 17
RE: Thai forces. - 6/18/2009 8:28:47 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

New Caledonia was in fact just deciding if to join Vichy or FFL. There were some talks and one Corvette (or gunboat or aviso or something smaller then DD) with pro-Vichy capitain. But after some talks they joined the allies in oct 1940. No bigger armed unit present - maybe security and police.


New Caledonia declared for Free France in mid-1940, after HMAS Adelaide scared off the Vichy Colonial Sloops that were requested by the Vichy governor. The governor subsequently turned over control to a pro-Gaulist committee, which was supported by the majority of the population.

Between then and mid-1941 a Pacific Marine Battalion was formed from volunteers (half from Tahiti) and sent to North Africa to fight with the allies. Also, a small Australian Engineer force (Robin Force) was installing two 6inch coastal guns at Quen Toro Hill, Noumea. The guns were provided by New Zealand, having been removed from old cruisers.

The French Garrision in New Caledonia was a weak battalion (7-800 men as I recall). Named New Caledonia Battalion (but in French) individuals within it wavered in loyalty to both Vichy and Free France. The unit did nothing to aid either side, and generally performed police duties (especially after the arrival of large US Army formations).

The two major Free French ships in the Pacific (excluding Indian Ocean) were:
the minesweeping sloop Chevreuil, based out of Tahiti but in New Caledonia waters when war began, and
the large destroyer Le Triomphant, attached to the Royal New Zealand navy but primarily operated with the Royal Australian Navy.

Another minesweeping sloop and one of the large colonial sloops were in the Indian Ocean, although I can be sure of the exact time frame. Also a former French Government cable laying ship that had previously laid international phone cables but was used to lay anti-submarine acoustic cables for harbor defense in various Indian Ocean bases.

Also a Free French Armed Merchant Cruiser, currently on the US West Coast (maybe refitting, don't recall off hand) and at least one Free French troop ship working with the British.


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Post #: 18
RE: Thai forces. - 6/18/2009 9:12:49 PM   
Skyland


Posts: 280
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen



Also a Free French Armed Merchant Cruiser, currently on the US West Coast (maybe refitting, don't recall off hand)




AMC Cap des Palmes was at Noumea in december 1941 and was transferring from dec 19th the japanese civilians living in New Caledonia to Australia. The refit occured only from Jan 43.

< Message edited by Skyland -- 6/18/2009 9:21:42 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 4:27:29 AM   
Jorm


Posts: 545
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline 		Ive alwasy wanted to mod in some extra french ships/aircraft into the game and have been searching for feasable scenarios on which units and where would they be deployed etc. Ive alwasy thought i was a tragic waste of a very modern and powerful fleet ie what happened to it In WWII.

any one have any thoughts on what would be a 'reasonable' level of increase in forces to the french units, eg lets say for example the french fleet isnt scuttled at Toulon but escapes, at least in part to the UK where some units are deployed to the pacfic in exchange for support from UK etc etc.
I understand there are many many complexities due to bristish /french relations being some what cool at the time after the Uk attack on the french fleet at Mers -el.-kebir etc. Also, the level of freedom allowed to the 'vichy' fleet by the germans wold be changed if parts of it keep buggering off to the pacific !.

Initially i thought it may just be fun to add some units into french indochina, make them all vichy and make the support the japanese, but Skyland pointed out in a previous thread that this just would not happen.

The way im leaning now is the keep french indochina free french at the begning of the game but have it reinforced from

1. reinforments sent before the fall of france ( some reading suggest the french knew of indochinas vulernability and it was like the philipines was to the USA).ie are implace at the start of the game.
2. french troops in syria decide to go free french and support the colonial troops.
3. madagasca
4. ships not scuttled etc at toulon
5. ships in north african ports

any other thoughts ?





< Message edited by Jorm -- 6/23/2009 4:29:54 AM >

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RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 8:51:25 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		In Noumea there were 4x95mm Mle 1888 and 2xOerlikon 20mm, in January 1942 Australians put there 2x152mm Mark IV. In August US puts 8 guns of 155 mm M1 w/ Kelly concrete platform of 244th Coast Artillerie Regiment distributed by 4 in Ouen Toro and 4 dans l’île Nou. 5 months later they go to Guadalcanal. In 1943 arrive 2 NZ Batteries each w/ 2 152mm Guns.

From the 5 stars site http://www.fortiff.be/iff/index.php?p=3007

The Indochine Coastal Defenses are there too.

< Message edited by Dili -- 6/23/2009 8:53:02 AM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 1:16:47 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen



Also a Free French Armed Merchant Cruiser, currently on the US West Coast (maybe refitting, don't recall off hand)




AMC Cap des Palmes was at Noumea in december 1941 and was transferring from dec 19th the japanese civilians living in New Caledonia to Australia. The refit occured only from Jan 43.


This is better info that I've previously found. Did some more research and found her listed in Tahiti in September, 1941 and Suva in October. Do you have her exact location as of December 7th, 1941? Also love to have any other details on Free French ships in the Pacific or Indian Oceans. Probably not those working with the Eastern Fleet out of Kilindini, like Leopard, Commandant Duboc, Emile Baudot, others?

Also love to get detailed service data on the Colonial Sloops of the Bougainville class in Free French service in the Pacific/Indian Oceans.


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Post #: 22
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 5:04:30 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
This is better info that I've previously found. Did some more research and found her listed in Tahiti in September, 1941 and Suva in October. Do you have her exact location as of December 7th, 1941? Also love to have any other details on Free French ships in the Pacific or Indian Oceans. Probably not those working with the Eastern Fleet out of Kilindini, like Leopard, Commandant Duboc, Emile Baudot, others?

Also love to get detailed service data on the Colonial Sloops of the Bougainville class in Free French service in the Pacific/Indian Oceans.

Built 1935 in Denmark, lpp 330’, loa 350’, 15k, 3000 gross tons, 2000 net tons. Not all that big. Was basically a SoPac packet/banana boat making round trips from Noumea to Sydney, at the time.
“Le troisième était le Cap des Palmes, un cargo fruitier de 108 mètres converti en croiseur auxiliaire. Il fut essentiellement affecté dès 1941 au transport de matériel militaire et de passagers (dont les prisonniers japonais) entre Nouméa et Sydney puis, à partir de 1943, à l’escorte des sous-marins américains vers les eaux japonaises.”

Couldn’t find Skyland’s Dec 19, ‘41 trip, but Aus sources list another similar one on Jan ’42, so it seems the Noumea/Sydney route was a routine. It’s very likely she was either at Noumea, or Sydney, or somewhere right between, on Dec 7, ’41.





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RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 5:15:57 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline 		SS Cap des Palmes reached Australia (probably Sydney?) on 22nd December 1941 with 336 (Japanese) internees from Noumea.

http://www.defence.gov.au/ARMY/AHU/Primary_Materials/POW_Chapter3.pdf





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Post #: 24
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 5:41:28 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
SS Cap des Palmes reached Australia (probably Sydney?) on 22nd December 1941 with 336 (Japanese) internees from Noumea.

http://www.defence.gov.au/ARMY/AHU/Primary_Materials/POW_Chapter3.pdf

Fabulous K, Thanks. Shows the December trip, the January trip and another in February, almost exactly 1 month apart.

With those turn times, and having her depart Noumea on December 19, that would mean she would almost have to be in port at Noumea, on December 7.

Thanks again K. Way to go!

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RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 5:47:45 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		I love the French DD Le Fantastique.  In one of my earlier games she sank Nagato in a wild melee involving a truly Allied TF of Australian, New Zealand, American, British and French cruisers and destroyers vs a pair of IJN BB's and escorting DD's.

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Post #: 26
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 8:14:06 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Le Fantasque i think.

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Post #: 27
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 8:23:43 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret
Wasn't New Caledonia Vichy?  I seem to remember reading somewhere that they wouldn't co-operate with or let Ghormely set up his HQ on land in Noumea, but when Halsey took over, he really didn't give them a choice in the matter!  At the start of Scens 15 & 16 in WitP (the only ones I've played other than the tutorial),  Noumea and the surrounding bases all belong to the US and there is already a USN Base Force established @ Noumea.  So, if New Caledonia is Vichy, wouldn't it seem logical to have some French troops present?

Perhaps yes, perhaps no. There was a certain sensitivity that the French exhibited. It wasn't directed at anybody, it was just there. As to New Cal: It was utter confusion. The governor, Georges Pelicier, was reluctantly pro-Vichy; the garrison commander was very pro-Vichy; the population was FFL; the governor left in disgust in September ’41 and the garrison commander took over, arresting FFL supporters, but was ignored; a FFL official, Henri Camille Sautot, appointed resident in the New Hebrides, Vichyites deported to Indochine; the Navy didn’t really support De Gaulle that much, and some skippers (Capt of the Dumont D'urville ) were very pro-Vichy. Everybody and anybody claimed control over French Oceania – chaos reigned!

This was the tragedy of France after 1940. Officers and administrators honored their duty, loyalty and oaths, to France, but which France was the right one? Duty to the Nation? (the Vichy Govt), or duty to the idea of France? (the FFL), and which faction? (De Gaulle or Muselier/Koenig/Giraud, ad infinitem). It was “nous sommes trahis! sauve qui peut!” time where every skipper, every administrator, every citoyen(enne), had to reach deep into their souls and decide where their honor took them.

For that reason, it’s very difficult to develop an OOB for FNFL ships, early war. The ships that technically “existed” may, or may not, willingly cooperate under certain circumstances. All we have to go on is apocryphal and anecdotal references to individual vessels.


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Post #: 28
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 8:31:42 PM   
Skyland


Posts: 280
Joined: 2/8/2007
From: France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

Ive alwasy wanted to mod in some extra french ships/aircraft into the game and have been searching for feasable scenarios on which units and where would they be deployed etc. Ive alwasy thought i was a tragic waste of a very modern and powerful fleet ie what happened to it In WWII.

any one have any thoughts on what would be a 'reasonable' level of increase in forces to the french units, eg lets say for example the french fleet isnt scuttled at Toulon but escapes, at least in part to the UK where some units are deployed to the pacfic in exchange for support from UK etc etc.
I understand there are many many complexities due to bristish /french relations being some what cool at the time after the Uk attack on the french fleet at Mers -el.-kebir etc. Also, the level of freedom allowed to the 'vichy' fleet by the germans wold be changed if parts of it keep buggering off to the pacific !.

Initially i thought it may just be fun to add some units into french indochina, make them all vichy and make the support the japanese, but Skyland pointed out in a previous thread that this just would not happen.

The way im leaning now is the keep french indochina free french at the begning of the game but have it reinforced from

1. reinforments sent before the fall of france ( some reading suggest the french knew of indochinas vulernability and it was like the philipines was to the USA).ie are implace at the start of the game.
2. french troops in syria decide to go free french and support the colonial troops.
3. madagasca
4. ships not scuttled etc at toulon
5. ships in north african ports

any other thoughts ?






I plan to make a mod for AE with Indochina on allied side with some reinforcements from France before war in Europe and from Africa as it was planned. I built a kind of realistic OoB. Just waiting for AE

(in reply to Jorm)
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