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ASW in 1944 - 6/25/2009 7:48:55 PM   
thegreatwent


Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		I am playing as Japan and it is early 1944. Submarines have become a nightmare for me around the HI. My aircraft don't seem to be carrying their weight I have Lilys, Anns, Kates and Maries on ASW missions with 70+ exp. They are patrolling at 2000 ft and while they often sight subs they don't seem to be attacking. Should I move them to Naval Search as some have suggested or should I try a different altitude or plane? Any pointers would be welcome as my TKs seem to be made of some torpedo attracting alloy.

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RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/25/2009 7:56:12 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		naval search can work. You'll want to form many ASW TF's too.



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RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/25/2009 8:51:40 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Those C/D class PC's are real sub killers. Accelerate construction of some of those, and form H/K TF's. I have found that if they fire off the 12 x Type 2 DC racks, that will sink an Allied sub over half the time, and will always send it home.

The ASW TF's will do a little better BTW if you put a decent leader in charge. Not a top admiral, but you have plenty of OK ones.

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RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/25/2009 9:18:24 PM   
thegreatwent


Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		Thanks for the suggestions. This the furthest I've gotten in a game as Japan and just supplying resources and oil is taking up most of my turns. The KB is intact but my sentry islands are falling. Subs and 4E bombers are the nemesis of Japan IMO.

WitP isn't just a game. Its an alternative lifestyle

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Post #: 4
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/25/2009 10:15:11 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

I am playing as Japan and it is early 1944. Submarines have become a nightmare for me around the HI. My aircraft don't seem to be carrying their weight I have Lilys, Anns, Kates and Maries on ASW missions with 70+ exp. They are patrolling at 2000 ft and while they often sight subs they don't seem to be attacking. Should I move them to Naval Search as some have suggested or should I try a different altitude or plane? Any pointers would be welcome as my TKs seem to be made of some torpedo attracting alloy.


HISTORY

The game overstates the effectiveness of ASW.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to thegreatwent)
Post #: 5
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/25/2009 10:30:02 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

Thanks for the suggestions. This the furthest I've gotten in a game as Japan and just supplying resources and oil is taking up most of my turns. The KB is intact but my sentry islands are falling. Subs and 4E bombers are the nemesis of Japan IMO.

WitP isn't just a game. Its an alternative lifestyle


No doubt! I am in 1945 as Japan, and it doesn't get easier. The only areas you get stronger as Japan are in PCs/ASW, and in Infantry.

Nice Auto-sig by the way, like the Piper Cub on yours. Did you have a relative in the Artillery? My gramps (on my autosig), served with the 41st Divisional Artillery (as an artillery observation pilot)

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RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/26/2009 8:31:35 AM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline 		Having been Japan 'late war' in a few PBEM........I've found (in stock , at least)....that Naval search is more effective than ASW for planes.....2-3000 feet.....100% (in stock).......Japan does get some good ASW ships in '44-45.....group these with an agressive leader....and send to any sighting......

You are right that subs and LRB and the biggest threat to Japan......to last late war.....you must keep the 4E's out of range for as long as possible.....and keep the sea lanes to the DEI open as long as Poss.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 7
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/26/2009 8:33:24 AM   
fabertong


Posts: 4546
Joined: 2/25/2004
From: Bristol, England, U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

I am playing as Japan and it is early 1944. Submarines have become a nightmare for me around the HI. My aircraft don't seem to be carrying their weight I have Lilys, Anns, Kates and Maries on ASW missions with 70+ exp. They are patrolling at 2000 ft and while they often sight subs they don't seem to be attacking. Should I move them to Naval Search as some have suggested or should I try a different altitude or plane? Any pointers would be welcome as my TKs seem to be made of some torpedo attracting alloy.


HISTORY

The game overstates the effectiveness of ASW.

Not sure what this contributes to the posted gaming question..........

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 8
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/26/2009 9:53:06 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fabertong


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

I am playing as Japan and it is early 1944. Submarines have become a nightmare for me around the HI. My aircraft don't seem to be carrying their weight I have Lilys, Anns, Kates and Maries on ASW missions with 70+ exp. They are patrolling at 2000 ft and while they often sight subs they don't seem to be attacking. Should I move them to Naval Search as some have suggested or should I try a different altitude or plane? Any pointers would be welcome as my TKs seem to be made of some torpedo attracting alloy.


HISTORY

The game overstates the effectiveness of ASW.

Not sure what this contributes to the posted gaming question..........


It doesn't. I now label my comments ("HISTORY", "GAME", "OPERATIONS RESEARCH") so people can choose to ignore or respond to them based on their interests.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to fabertong)
Post #: 9
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/26/2009 10:01:26 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline 		Sounds sensible Herwin.  Personally I like the additional info.

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Post #: 10
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/26/2009 10:16:07 AM   
thegreatwent


Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
quote:

No doubt! I am in 1945 as Japan, and it doesn't get easier. The only areas you get stronger as Japan are in PCs/ASW, and in Infantry.

Nice Auto-sig by the way, like the Piper Cub on yours. Did you have a relative in the Artillery? My gramps (on my autosig), served with the 41st Divisional Artillery (as an artillery observation pilot)


Yes, my grandfather was a redleg. He served in Moratai, Luzon and the occupation force. While in the National Guard he served in Korea. For myself I also was in the FA, I played with 105mm, 155mm and one of the last 8in units. It is sad to note that many of my old tubes are now bombs.

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Post #: 11
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/26/2009 11:38:11 PM   
Long Lance


Posts: 274
Joined: 7/31/2002
From: Ebbelwoi Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

I am playing as Japan and it is early 1944. Submarines have become a nightmare for me around the HI. My aircraft don't seem to be carrying their weight I have Lilys, Anns, Kates and Maries on ASW missions with 70+ exp. They are patrolling at 2000 ft and while they often sight subs they don't seem to be attacking. Should I move them to Naval Search as some have suggested or should I try a different altitude or plane? Any pointers would be welcome as my TKs seem to be made of some torpedo attracting alloy.


HISTORY

The game overstates the effectiveness of ASW.


The game overstates the abilty of mid-/latewar Allied Fighters even more.


(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 12
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/27/2009 4:33:17 PM   
Ric

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 7/19/2008
Status: offline 		I have created almost 15 ASW patrols. betwen 5 an 8 ships each

and now is mid 1945 and got rid of american subs.

the kill ratio reached at some point to 3 or 4 subs sunk during a game week

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Post #: 13
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/27/2009 7:00:15 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		Helens and Sallys are sub killers. The other Jap AC just don't carry enough bombs to do the job

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Post #: 14
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/27/2009 7:24:03 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		BTW, IJN level bombers set to Nav Search or ASW do not score hits. Ever. You will see them attack, but not hit anything.

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Post #: 15
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/27/2009 9:50:44 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

BTW, IJN level bombers set to Nav Search or ASW do not score hits. Ever. You will see them attack, but not hit anything.

And to think mdiehl was making such a big squak about IJAAF aircraft doing this, as though it gave IJ an advantage they didn't have. So if what you say is true, it's actually more of a cheat against IJ, as having that ASW option just entices the player to use it, when it never works, therefore wasting fuel/supplies.

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Post #: 16
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/27/2009 10:03:26 PM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		In my limited games as Japan I find Vals and Kates with high exp (75+) to be excellent ASW AC. If I have carriers in the area I will cruise them slowly between two points with ASW set to 100% and I get a good number of detections and kills. Vals in particular if they detect a sub put a bomb into it with enough regularity to be effective. And those 250 KG bombs really hurt subs.

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Post #: 17
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/27/2009 10:16:53 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

BTW, IJN level bombers set to Nav Search or ASW do not score hits. Ever. You will see them attack, but not hit anything.


So only set Japanese bombers to Naval Attack if you are goiing after subs ? I did not know that.


_____________________________

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Post #: 18
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/28/2009 2:01:17 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

BTW, IJN level bombers set to Nav Search or ASW do not score hits. Ever. You will see them attack, but not hit anything.


So only set Japanese bombers to Naval Attack if you are goiing after subs ? I did not know that.




Q-Ball was speaking about IJNAF level bombers like Nells, Betties, Frances. Those level bombers that carry torps, and the same goes for the patrols. You see them attacking but they never hit so I guess that´s a bug. I´ve never seen a single sub in thousands of PBEM turns taking damage from such an attack. Not IJN, nor Allied subs. It works when torp carrying single E bombers attack though. Kates or TBFs work just fine. Don´t know what strange bug or feature that is.

Bombers on nav attack will never attack a sub though.

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Post #: 19
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/28/2009 6:37:22 PM   
BJStone


Posts: 135
Joined: 1/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

I am playing as Japan and it is early 1944. Submarines have become a nightmare for me around the HI. My aircraft don't seem to be carrying their weight I have Lilys, Anns, Kates and Maries on ASW missions with 70+ exp. They are patrolling at 2000 ft and while they often sight subs they don't seem to be attacking. Should I move them to Naval Search as some have suggested or should I try a different altitude or plane? Any pointers would be welcome as my TKs seem to be made of some torpedo attracting alloy.


Do you have an Air HQ in the area that is in range of the bases you are flying out of?

I think that even the LB sightings help direct or bring to the attention of ASW DB air units an enemy sub for an attack run.

I've seen statements on this thread regarding LB sighting but not hitting enemy subs. There is, according to the manual, a minimum requirement of a 5k altitude for LBs that, I think, has an impact on a successful attack of an enemy sub.

What is the range setting on your DBs? I would try reducing the range to normal or less. And use aggressive leaders for your air units.

I get very good results with my DB flying at an altitude of 6k. I know DB attack @ 2k but I think they spot better at 6k.


Regards,

BJ

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Post #: 20
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/28/2009 7:17:36 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

In my limited games as Japan I find Vals and Kates with high exp (75+) to be excellent ASW AC. If I have carriers in the area I will cruise them slowly between two points with ASW set to 100% and I get a good number of detections and kills. Vals in particular if they detect a sub put a bomb into it with enough regularity to be effective. And those 250 KG bombs really hurt subs.

I stated what I just did, because mdiehl objects to the IJ player being able to use IJAAF aerial assets to do ASW work, as he alleges that only IJN did that. So, you see what I'm saying, that while on the surface, if mdiehl is correct, it looks like that 'helps' IJ to be able to use the IJAAF for ASW work, the ironic thing is it does the exact opposite.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)
Post #: 21
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/28/2009 8:13:09 PM   
thegreatwent


Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
quote:

Do you have an Air HQ in the area that is in range of the bases you are flying out of?

I think that even the LB sightings help direct or bring to the attention of ASW DB air units an enemy sub for an attack run.

I've seen statements on this thread regarding LB sighting but not hitting enemy subs. There is, according to the manual, a minimum requirement of a 5k altitude for LBs that, I think, has an impact on a successful attack of an enemy sub.

What is the range setting on your DBs? I would try reducing the range to normal or less. And use aggressive leaders for your air units.

I get very good results with my DB flying at an altitude of 6k. I know DB attack @ 2k but I think they spot better at 6k.


Regards,

BJ


Thanks BJ and everyone else. I think my LBs were low and will try flying a 5k. Plus review my units commanders perhaps more aggressive commanders will inspire better results.

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RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/28/2009 11:28:07 PM   
AirGriff


Posts: 701
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		I'm playing a BigB mod and I can tell you with my best confidence that, first, IJA level bombers most certainly do get hits, especially the Helens (not sure if they're on nav search or asw patrols), and second, the late war Jap PC's are absolutely brutal at hitting allied subs. I could spend all my time on a turn just playing cat and mouse with those bloody things.

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RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/29/2009 3:21:37 PM   
Charles2222


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Joined: 3/12/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

I'm playing a BigB mod and I can tell you with my best confidence that, first, IJA level bombers most certainly do get hits, especially the Helens (not sure if they're on nav search or asw patrols), and second, the late war Jap PC's are absolutely brutal at hitting allied subs. I could spend all my time on a turn just playing cat and mouse with those bloody things.

Perhaps part of the mod was to eliminate the problem of level bombers (2E's) not hitting any subs?

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Post #: 24
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/29/2009 6:47:38 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

BTW, IJN level bombers set to Nav Search or ASW do not score hits. Ever. You will see them attack, but not hit anything.


So only set Japanese bombers to Naval Attack if you are goiing after subs ? I did not know that.




Q-Ball was speaking about IJNAF level bombers like Nells, Betties, Frances. Those level bombers that carry torps, and the same goes for the patrols. You see them attacking but they never hit so I guess that´s a bug. I´ve never seen a single sub in thousands of PBEM turns taking damage from such an attack. Not IJN, nor Allied subs. It works when torp carrying single E bombers attack though. Kates or TBFs work just fine. Don´t know what strange bug or feature that is.

Bombers on nav attack will never attack a sub though.


I have suffered hits on my subs from Bettys and Emilys but not as often as from Sally/Helens.


_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


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Post #: 25
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/29/2009 7:06:18 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		rupd3658: Do you have any idea what version you played where you got the sally/helen hits?

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Post #: 26
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/29/2009 8:07:00 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

rupd3658: Do you have any idea what version you played where you got the sally/helen hits?



Helens and Sallies hit in every mod as they carry torps. There´s a problem when the bombers carry torps as they "should" carry bombs during nav/asw search but like I´ve mentioned earlier, in my 5000 PBEM turns they have yet to hit something.

RUPD states that he got hits though. Not my experience.

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Post #: 27
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/29/2009 9:02:12 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

BTW, IJN level bombers set to Nav Search or ASW do not score hits. Ever. You will see them attack, but not hit anything.


So only set Japanese bombers to Naval Attack if you are goiing after subs ? I did not know that.




Q-Ball was speaking about IJNAF level bombers like Nells, Betties, Frances. Those level bombers that carry torps, and the same goes for the patrols. You see them attacking but they never hit so I guess that´s a bug. I´ve never seen a single sub in thousands of PBEM turns taking damage from such an attack. Not IJN, nor Allied subs. It works when torp carrying single E bombers attack though. Kates or TBFs work just fine. Don´t know what strange bug or feature that is.

Bombers on nav attack will never attack a sub though.


I have suffered hits on my subs from Bettys and Emilys but not as often as from Sally/Helens.


Just went back through all the Threadwar turn (7 mos so far): Bettys DID get hits on NON-subs... but no sub hits (this is CHS).

Similarly, no hits on SUBS by Nells, Emilys, Catalinas... of course, Catalinas were known never to have destroyed a sub during the actual war, right??

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 28
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/29/2009 9:57:37 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Q-Ball was speaking about IJNAF level bombers like Nells, Betties, Frances. Those level bombers that carry torps, and the same goes for the patrols.


That's correct, IJN 2Es do not get hits on subs when set to Nav Search or ASW. They attack, but don't hit anything. Betty, Nell, Frances. Wasn't talking about IJA Bombers, which get LOTS of hits.

I have never seen Emily or Mavis hit anything either.

I HAVE seen hits from 1E floatplanes. Not many, but some.

Point is, don't bother putting your IJN 2Es on ASW duty, you're just wasting your time




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Post #: 29
RE: ASW in 1944 - 6/29/2009 10:27:18 PM   
Mynok


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Status: offline
It's not a waste. They will still spot subs for your ASW work, which is far more effective at killing them than plane bombs.

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Post #: 30
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