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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

 
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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 7:46:58 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the Shinano and Karyu were originally designed as BBs by the Japanese and then completed as CVs. (much like the first CVs built in the 20s by many powers were converted from battle cruiser hulls)

in WiF, a player can complete the ships as battleships, or after their first cycle of construction, can finish them as carriers. To make it a bit more confusing, with the latest set of counters one can complete them as 'super-carriers' with a higher plane capacity at a higher cost, or a smaller plane capacity at a lower cost. So in the final counter-mix, there are three different counters for each ship. However only one of the three can ever appear on the map.

Warspite 1

Yes - but what I need to know is which Unit ID refers to the BB and which to the CV.


In the MWIF data file "Standard Units Naval.CSV" all the naval units are listed in numeric order by unit #. One of the data fields in a unit's record is its unit type code. In Section 11 of the Players Manual (Appendices) are detailed descriptions of all the fields in all the data files, including the conversion of unit type codes to unit type names.

I could look these up for you, but this falls into the category of teaching someone how to fish rather than giving them a fish.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1051
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 8:04:37 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the Shinano and Karyu were originally designed as BBs by the Japanese and then completed as CVs. (much like the first CVs built in the 20s by many powers were converted from battle cruiser hulls)

in WiF, a player can complete the ships as battleships, or after their first cycle of construction, can finish them as carriers. To make it a bit more confusing, with the latest set of counters one can complete them as 'super-carriers' with a higher plane capacity at a higher cost, or a smaller plane capacity at a lower cost. So in the final counter-mix, there are three different counters for each ship. However only one of the three can ever appear on the map.

Warspite 1

Yes - but what I need to know is which Unit ID refers to the BB and which to the CV.


In the MWIF data file "Standard Units Naval.CSV" all the naval units are listed in numeric order by unit #. One of the data fields in a unit's record is its unit type code. In Section 11 of the Players Manual (Appendices) are detailed descriptions of all the fields in all the data files, including the conversion of unit type codes to unit type names.

I could look these up for you, but this falls into the category of teaching someone how to fish rather than giving them a fish.

Warspite1

Found it!! thanks Steve - I did tell you I was rubbish with computers and files and stuff


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1052
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 8:35:56 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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ANOTHER INFO REQUEST

In the Mech in Flames expansion there are two Dutch vessels named Gouden Leeuw (both with a start date of 1940) and a third call Van Oranje. One of the Gouden Leeuw`s has Van Oranje written on the back in italics.

In the MWIF Naval.txt master file there is only one Gouden Leeuw. There is no Orange Box on the back of any of these counters so I am completely at a loss as to why there is two Gouden Leeuw`s but only one unit ID. What is the significance of the italics?

Any idea?

Many thanks


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1053
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 10:22:03 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ANOTHER INFO REQUEST

In the Mech in Flames expansion there are two Dutch vessels named Gouden Leeuw (both with a start date of 1940) and a third call Van Oranje. One of the Gouden Leeuw`s has Van Oranje written on the back in italics.

In the MWIF Naval.txt master file there is only one Gouden Leeuw. There is no Orange Box on the back of any of these counters so I am completely at a loss as to why there is two Gouden Leeuw`s but only one unit ID. What is the significance of the italics?

Any idea?

The Gouden Leeuw with the Van Oranje on its back is the WiF Classic scaled ship. It represents the 2 ships. The name in Italic on the back is simply the second ship on the counter.
The other Gouden Leeuw is the SiF scaled ship. In this scale (the one MWiF uses), each counter is 1 ship (with some DDs).

That's why MWiF only have the 2 latests.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1054
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 10:28:20 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ANOTHER INFO REQUEST

In the Mech in Flames expansion there are two Dutch vessels named Gouden Leeuw (both with a start date of 1940) and a third call Van Oranje. One of the Gouden Leeuw`s has Van Oranje written on the back in italics.

In the MWIF Naval.txt master file there is only one Gouden Leeuw. There is no Orange Box on the back of any of these counters so I am completely at a loss as to why there is two Gouden Leeuw`s but only one unit ID. What is the significance of the italics?

Any idea?

The Gouden Leeuw with the Van Oranje on its back is the WiF Classic scaled ship. It represents the 2 ships. The name in Italic on the back is simply the second ship on the counter.
The other Gouden Leeuw is the SiF scaled ship. In this scale (the one MWiF uses), each counter is 1 ship (with some DDs).

That's why MWiF only have the 2 latests.

Warspite 1

I knew you would have the answer Patrice! Many thanks.




_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1055
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 10:31:17 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I knew you would have the answer Patrice! Many thanks.

Thanks to you for the research about the naval units !
By the way no need for me to copy this answer to the developpement forum, is it ?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1056
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 10:33:13 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I knew you would have the answer Patrice! Many thanks.

Have you had your answer for the Shinano and Karyu counters ?
In fact, there are 2 different possible upgrade for each of those ships.
So there is 1 BB Shinano, and 2 replacement CV Shinano. An historical one (class 3) and a what if one (class 6). Same for the Karyu. You can only choose one replacement.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1057
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 10:36:57 PM   
Mike Parker

 

Posts: 583
Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Houston TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

If you are being cute then its way to clever for me. I don`t understand what that means.



I just meant that when one looks at a ship counter, there is one telling difference between a BB and a CV. That telling difference is that the CV will have a number on it that denotes the class of CVP that the carrier can well.. carry :) The BB Shinano will NOT have this number while the CV will.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1058
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/18/2009 11:08:03 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I knew you would have the answer Patrice! Many thanks.

Have you had your answer for the Shinano and Karyu counters ?
In fact, there are 2 different possible upgrade for each of those ships.
So there is 1 BB Shinano, and 2 replacement CV Shinano. An historical one (class 3) and a what if one (class 6). Same for the Karyu. You can only choose one replacement.

Warspite 1

Yes - I got the answer from Steve telling me where to look - please see attached first draft at describing these counters

[5108 Karyu - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 150,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 27 knots
.B Main armament: 16 x 5-inch (127mm), 145 x 25mm AA guns
.B Aircraft: 47
.B Displacement (Full Load): 71,890 tons
.B Thickest armour: 8.1-inch (belt)
.P This is a World In Flames "what if" counter. Karyu was originally
designed as a Yamato-class battleship (see Counter 4364). However in 1942, when
only 30% complete she was broken up. During construction, her sister ship
Shinano was converted to an aircraft carrier and so the technical details above
reflect how Karyu would have appeared if she too had been completed to the same
specification.
.P Shinano`s role was that of a support ship for the fleet carriers and in
addition to forty-seven of her own aircraft, she also had hangar space for an
additional twenty-three aircraft. These aircraft were able to call upon an
impressive 158,000 Imperial Gallons of aviation fuel.
.P She would have featured a 3-inch armoured flight deck between her two lifts,
serving a single hangar. Although her belt armour would have been retained, it
was half the thickness envisaged in her battleship design. Her magazines and
machinery spaces would have been covered by armour plate 7.5-inch thick.
.P She would have featured a strong anti-aircraft defence, supported by no less
than thirty-three triple 25mm guns and a further twelve multi-barrelled rocket
launchers for close-range defence.
.P World In Flames also allows the Japanese player to build Karyu as a more
powerful "what if" carrier (see Counter 4333).

[4364 Karyu - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 150,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 27 knots
.B Main armament: 9 x 18.1-inch (460mm), 12 x 6.1-inch (155mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 69,990 tons
.B Thickest armour: 16.1-inch (belt)
.P This is a World In Flames "what if" counter. Known as ship No.111, the name
Karyu was never offically given to what would have been the fourth of the Yamato
-class battleships. She was ordered, along with Shinano in 1939 but Karyu was to
be broken up in 1942 when only 30% complete.
.P The Yamato and Musashi were the largest battleships ever built, mounting an
impressive 18.1-inch main armament in three triple turrets. It is likely that
Karyu would have differed slightly from her completed sisters, with thinner
armour but an increased anti-aircraft (AA) armament. However the enhanced AA
weaponry fitted to Yamato in 1943 could not save her from her ultimate fate and
neither of the completed ships had a chance to make much of an impact in the war
before being sunk. It is unlikely that Karyu`s fate would have been any
different.
.P World In Flames also gives the Japanese player the option to complete Karyu
as an aircraft carrier (see Counters 4333 and 5108).

Counter 4333 needs some work as its an entirely fictional proposition - I`ll give that some thought. I`ve given similar treatment to the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau replacement counters:

[5106 Scharnhorst - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 165,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 32 knots
.B Main armament: 9 x 11-inch (280mm), 12 x 5.9-inch (150mm) guns
.B Displacement (Full Load): 38,900 tons
.B Thickest armor: 13.75-inches (belt)
.P This is a World In Flames "what if" counter that allows the German player
to upgrade the Gneisenau`s 11-inch main armament to a 15-inch gun.
.P The Scharnhorst and her sister Gneisenau were originally intended to be
better armoured versions of the Deutschland-class pocket-battleships. They would
still mount an 11-inch main gun, although in three twin turrets rather than two.
After the signing of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement in June 1935, Adolf Hitler
wanted to increase the main armament to a 15-inch (381mm) gun in order that the
battlecruisers main armament would compare with that of British capital ships.
However, this would mean their introduction would be delayed by up to two years
and this was not something Hitler could afford to do, given his territorial
ambitions.
.P The two ships were therefore completed as heavily armoured battlescruisers
with a plan to upgrade their main armament at the first opportunity. As it
turned out, the upgrade never happened and the two ships remained with their
original main armament throughout their life.
.P Please see Counter 4771 for brief details of the Scharnhorst`s service record
in World War II.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1059
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/20/2009 6:24:07 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
INFO REQUEST

Sorry but in the interests of trying to save research time I will be posting these requests as they crop up.

There is Soviet counter in Cruisers in Flames called Volga. I can see no record of this cruiser having been in existence or indeed planned. Can anyone shed any light on its existence please?

Thank you

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1060
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/21/2009 6:13:12 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
INFO REQUEST

Further to my request above I also require the following please:

Does anyone know what the following "what if" ships from Ships In Flames represent:

Von Moltke, Bulow and v. Falkenhayn - I assume these are the three "P" class from Plan Z?

If so, what about v. Mackensen and Derfflinger are these two of the projected "O" class?

Many thanks



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1061
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/21/2009 10:14:01 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

INFO REQUEST

Sorry but in the interests of trying to save research time I will be posting these requests as they crop up.

There is Soviet counter in Cruisers in Flames called Volga. I can see no record of this cruiser having been in existence or indeed planned. Can anyone shed any light on its existence please?

Thank you

Sorry, I found nothing about this ship by looking at the data I have at hand.
It looks like it is a what if ship, and it looks like the Murmansk Class is one too.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1062
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/21/2009 10:22:15 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

INFO REQUEST

Further to my request above I also require the following please:

Does anyone know what the following "what if" ships from Ships In Flames represent:

Von Moltke, Bulow and v. Falkenhayn - I assume these are the three "P" class from Plan Z?

If so, what about v. Mackensen and Derfflinger are these two of the projected "O" class?

Many thanks



From ADG SiF data :
Von Moltke : "O" Battleship. Version shown as designed. Cancelled because of war.
Bulow : Class "P" Battleship. Version shown as designed. Cancelled because of war.
v. Falkenhayn : "Q" Battleship. Version shown as designed. Cancelled because of war.
v. Mackensen : No info.
Derfflinger : No info.

For completeness about the Battlships, the other designs abandonned on 10 october 1939 were :
H (Frederich de Grosse)
J (Grossdeutscland)
K (v. Hindenburg)
L (Moritz)
M (Zeiten)
N (Bevan)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1063
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/21/2009 10:31:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

INFO REQUEST

Sorry but in the interests of trying to save research time I will be posting these requests as they crop up.

There is Soviet counter in Cruisers in Flames called Volga. I can see no record of this cruiser having been in existence or indeed planned. Can anyone shed any light on its existence please?

Thank you

Sorry, I found nothing about this ship by looking at the data I have at hand.
It looks like it is a what if ship, and it looks like the Murmansk Class is one too.

Warspite 1

Thanks for taking the trouble to look Patrice.
Murmansk is not a "what if" - she`s the USN cruiser Milwaukee that was lent to the Soviets at the end of the war. Damn - could have been a good quiz question


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1064
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/21/2009 10:40:38 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

INFO REQUEST

Further to my request above I also require the following please:

Does anyone know what the following "what if" ships from Ships In Flames represent:

Von Moltke, Bulow and v. Falkenhayn - I assume these are the three "P" class from Plan Z?

If so, what about v. Mackensen and Derfflinger are these two of the projected "O" class?

Many thanks



From ADG SiF data :
Von Moltke : "O" Battleship. Version shown as designed. Cancelled because of war.
Bulow : Class "P" Battleship. Version shown as designed. Cancelled because of war.
v. Falkenhayn : "Q" Battleship. Version shown as designed. Cancelled because of war.
v. Mackensen : No info.
Derfflinger : No info.

For completeness about the Battlships, the other designs abandonned on 10 october 1939 were :
H (Frederich de Grosse)
J (Grossdeutscland)
K (v. Hindenburg)
L (Moritz)
M (Zeiten)
N (Bevan)

Warspite1

mmm...I guess its down to the second hand book shop at the weekend for me. The annoying this is that I have a book called Plan Z..and its rubbish!! At least you have confirmed the six names of the BB`s which is more than Plan Z was able to do.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1065
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/21/2009 10:47:13 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
mmm...I guess its down to the second hand book shop at the weekend for me. The annoying this is that I have a book called Plan Z..and its rubbish!! At least you have confirmed the six names of the BB`s which is more than Plan Z was able to do.


I'll look at my books for these ships, but not this week as I will be travellling to Crete with the family for a 1 week of vacation .

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1066
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/21/2009 11:43:11 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Here`s my first crack at the German auxiliary cruisers.

[4804 Kormoran - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 16,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 18 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 5.9-inch (150mm), 1 x 2.9-inch (75mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 8,736 tons
.B Aircraft: 2 x Arado 196 float plane
.P During the First World War the Germans employed auxiliary cruisers to
attack Allied shipping. During the Second World War the Kriegsmarine revived the
concept, requisitioning fast merchant vessels and modifying them to fulfil their
new purpose. Due to a lack of detailed planning pre-war, there were no laid out
plans for each ship`s conversion and in some cases this delayed the completion
of the vessels.
.P The conversions were not standard and the final specification could differ
from ship to ship, although the 5.9-inch gun was most widely used. They also had
torpedoes and a variety of smaller weapons.
.P The ships were of sufficient size to carry at least one Arado 196 aircraft.
These provided vital reconnaissance capability in the vast expanse of the oceans
they patrolled. One of the drawbacks of this type of raider was the complete
lack of armour and so action against enemy warships was to be avoided if
possible.
.P Each ship was given a Handels-stor-Kreuzer (HSK) number and a pennant number
identifying them as "commerce disruption cruisers". Kormoran was known to the
British as Raider G.
.P World In Flames allows the German player to build up to ten of the most
famous examples of the auxiliary cruiser.
.P The Kormoran (HSK-8) was the largest of the auxiliary cruisers and has a
unique place in history as having been the only such vessel to sink a modern
enemy warship.
.P Kormoran was built for the Hamburg-Amerika line in 1938 and began life as the
merchant ship Steiermark. She was renamed Kormoran upon her requisition by the
Kriegsmarine and she was ready for service in October 1940, commanded by
KorvettenKapitan Detmers.
.P Kormoran left Germany in December 1940, sailing into the North Atlantic via
the Denmark Strait and then heading straight for the South Atlantic. At this
time the South Atlantic proved a better hunting ground as the convoy system was
not in place further south. Note: this is one of the reasons that Graf Spee
enjoyed more success than her sister Deutschland in the early months of the war.
.P Her intial results were good, with seven Allied ships sunk. A further ship
had a prize crew put aboard and was then sent to France. All this was achieved
in four months. Kormoran was then ordered to the Indian Ocean where she was not
so successful; she sunk only three more ships up to November 1941.
.P Then, that month Kormoran took part in her last battle. On the 19th, she was
off the west coast of Australia when she came across the Australian light
cruiser HMAS Sydney. Captain Burnett of the Sydney, approached with his cruiser
to identify the merchant vessel. Detmers tried to pass Kormoran off as a Dutch
merchant but the Sydney kept closing the range while trying to confirm her
identity. This gave Kormoran a fighting chance as her main armament was
comparable to that of the Australian ship. Detmers gave the order to fire when
the two ships were just 1,600yds from each other and, taking the Sydney by
surprise, she hit her numerous times.
.P It is believed that Sydney was hit over 150 times and she also took a torpedo
that badly damaged her bow. However, she began firing back and both ships were
soon mortally wounded. The engagement was broken off as the two crews were more
involved in saving their ships than fighting each other. With a fire raging out
of control, Detmers gave the order to abandon ship and ordered charges be set
for her scuttling before leaving.
.P There were no survivors from the 645 officers and crew of the Sydney, which
was the largest ship to be lost with all hands from any navy in World War II. No one
knows exactly how she met her end but when she dis-engaged from Kormoran she
was on fire.
.P Detmers and about 320 crew from Kormoran were rescued and made prisoners of
war.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/21/2009 11:49:00 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1067
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/24/2009 12:40:44 AM   
brian brian

 

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I thought someone was re-working the write-up of the Sydney in light of the discovery of the wreck site last year? There was some discussion about it here, I think in this thread.

A CX write-up could include some other things instead, like the CX that entered the Pacific through the Bering Strait, courtesy of some Soviet ice-breakers... also somewhere I have an entire book solely about the cruise of the Orion.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1068
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/24/2009 7:00:47 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I thought someone was re-working the write-up of the Sydney in light of the discovery of the wreck site last year? There was some discussion about it here, I think in this thread.

A CX write-up could include some other things instead, like the CX that entered the Pacific through the Bering Strait, courtesy of some Soviet ice-breakers... also somewhere I have an entire book solely about the cruise of the Orion.

Warspite1

On the two points you raise:

1. I put in a request to the original author of the Sydney to be allowed to change his original write-up but never got a response. However, that request was for reasons un-related to this. Having re-read that write-up (post 758), I don`t think there is too much I would change anyway on the Kormoran episode. The write-ups I have done (with a few exceptions) refer only to WWII history (plenty of wrecks have been found subsequently, but unless they help to evidence a change of view as to why a ship was sunk, I haven`t bothered to mention it) . Exceptions re post WWII comment tend to be for ships without much else to say e.g. HMS Hermes, flagship of Sandy Woodward in the Falklands War (HMS Elephant in WIF), although again its no more than a passing comment.

2. Re your second point, I dont understand. The draft write up telling the story of the Kormoran....is for the Kormoran counter. The other CX will have their own write ups including the Orion (which I have not done yet) and the Komet (which made the journey to the Pacific) and is shown below (again in draft form):

[4803 Komet - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 7,500 hp
.B Top Speed: 15 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 5.9-inch (150mm), 1 x 2.4-inch (60mm) guns
.B Displacement (full load): 3,287 tons
.B Aircraft: 2 x Arado 196 float plane
.P During the First World War the Germans employed auxiliary cruisers to
attack Allied shipping. During the Second World War the Kriegsmarine revived the
concept, requisitioning fast merchant vessels and modifying them to fulfil their
new purpose. Due to a lack of detailed planning pre-war, there were no laid out
plans for each ship`s conversion and in some cases this delayed the completion
of the vessels.
.P The conversions were not standard and the final specification could differ
from ship to ship, although the 5.9-inch gun was most widely used. They also had
torpedoes and a variety of smaller weapons.
.P The ships were of sufficient size to carry at least one Arado 196 aircraft.
These provided vital reconnaissance capability in the vast expanse of the oceans
they patrolled. One of the drawbacks of this type of raider was the complete
lack of armour and so action against enemy warships was to be avoided if
possible.
.P Each ship was given a Handels-stor-Kreuzer (HSK) number and a pennant number
identifying them as "commerce disruption cruisers". Komet was known to the
British as Raider B.
.P World In Flames allows the German player to build up to ten of the most
famous examples of the auxiliary cruiser.
.P Komet (HSK-7) began life as the merchant vessel Ems. She was built for the
Norddeutscher Lloyd Line and was launched in 1937. She was requisitioned by the
Kriegsmarine at the start of the Second World War for the purpose of being
converted into an auxiliary cruiser, although was not commissioned until June
1940. She was the smallest of all the auxiliary cruisers but despite this, she
carried her own Motor Torpedo Boat (MTB).
.P She was unusual in that she arrived at her hunting ground, in Komet`s case
the Pacific Ocean, via the Arctic. Despite her neutrality at the time, the
Soviet Union assisted the German ship with a number of ice-breakers to ensure
her safe passage through to the Pacific.
.P Once there, Komet, commanded by Kapitan Eyssen sank a total of seven vessels
and captured a further one. Two of these ships were sunk in company with the
auxiliary cruiser Orion. Komet returned safely to Germany in November 1941.
.P For her second operation, she was commanded by Kapitan Brocksien. She had
had a major refit that included removal of her obsolete 2.4-inch gun, her two
aircraft and her MTB. She was given four 37mm and four 20mm anti-aircraft
weapons. She left Germany in October 1942 and this time attempted to breakout
into the Atlantic via the English Channel.
.P For the journey west she had an escort of minesweepers, and the flotilla
were attacked by British MTB`s while still in the eastern Channel. The British
were beaten off and Komet continued until she lost much of her escort to a
minefield off Dunkirk. Eventually, Komet made the port of Le Havre and there she
picked up a new escort of MTB`s.
.P However, Komet was spotted by a British reconnaissance aircraft and Brocksien
made the fateful decision to continue west rather than put into to Cherbourg. A
force of Royal Navy destroyers and MTB`s were already at sea and sailed to
intercept the German ships. What exactly happened next is subject to some debate
but in the confused action that followed it is believed, certainly by the
Germans, that Komet`s escorts were badly shot up, not by the British, but in
error by the forward gunner of the Komet who panicked under attack. Although it
was believed initially that a torpedo from MTB 236 had sunk the Komet, the
Germans believe she sank due to the effects of gunfire from the destroyers.
.P A fire, caused by a British shell raged out of control on board, and when the fire
reached the forward magazines, Komet blew apart taking all 269 officers and crew
with her to the bottom of the English Channel.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/24/2009 9:44:38 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 1069
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/24/2009 9:39:12 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I thought someone was re-working the write-up of the Sydney in light of the discovery of the wreck site last year? There was some discussion about it here, I think in this thread.

A CX write-up could include some other things instead, like the CX that entered the Pacific through the Bering Strait, courtesy of some Soviet ice-breakers... also somewhere I have an entire book solely about the cruise of the Orion.

Warspite1

Brian Brian
Just a thought - if you have a book about the Orion how do you fancy doing the Orion write-up? If you use the first 5 standard paragraphs (as per Kormoran and Komet) and then add your text (entirely up to you how much you write), I will then format and put into the master list. Please also let me know your source for the Bibliography Author, Book title, and year first published.

Let me know if you fancy it - in the meantime I will leave off doing this one pending your response.

Rgds

Rob


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 1070
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/24/2009 6:13:15 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I thought someone was re-working the write-up of the Sydney in light of the discovery of the wreck site last year? There was some discussion about it here, I think in this thread.

A CX write-up could include some other things instead, like the CX that entered the Pacific through the Bering Strait, courtesy of some Soviet ice-breakers... also somewhere I have an entire book solely about the cruise of the Orion.

Warspite1

Brian Brian
Just a thought - if you have a book about the Orion how do you fancy doing the Orion write-up? If you use the first 5 standard paragraphs (as per Kormoran and Komet) and then add your text (entirely up to you how much you write), I will then format and put into the master list. Please also let me know your source for the Bibliography Author, Book title, and year first published.

Let me know if you fancy it - in the meantime I will leave off doing this one pending your response.

Rgds

Rob


Brian,

But it must be your own words, not simply a transcription from a book or other source.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1071
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/24/2009 6:34:23 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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Joined: 12/30/2008
From: Houston TX
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The only reference I could find even tangentially to Volga was of the Volga River Flotilla.  Small vessels armed with tank turrets, and later in the war with various spare weaponry as the crews could make work.  I suppose a Volga CL could be a hypothetical ship representing a 'what if' the Soviets had put these vessels into the black sea for operations against the Romanians, Bulgarians, or Turks.

I suppose its more likely that it is a completly fictional 'what if' ship to allow the Soviet player to have an expanded naval capacity if they wish.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1072
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/24/2009 8:40:23 PM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

The only reference I could find even tangentially to Volga was of the Volga River Flotilla.  Small vessels armed with tank turrets, and later in the war with various spare weaponry as the crews could make work.  I suppose a Volga CL could be a hypothetical ship representing a 'what if' the Soviets had put these vessels into the black sea for operations against the Romanians, Bulgarians, or Turks.

I suppose its more likely that it is a completly fictional 'what if' ship to allow the Soviet player to have an expanded naval capacity if they wish.

Warspite 1

Thanks for checking - I will just say its a one ship "what if" counter as the factors do not indicate its another ship of an existing class. Just like to explore all the possibilities before committing to counter.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Mike Parker)
Post #: 1073
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/25/2009 11:23:45 PM   
brian brian

 

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ahh, as usual I was underestimating what everyone is doing for these write-ups, I thought the one you posted was to be a singular entry to represent all ten of the CX pieces.

I stopped by my storage unit where all too many of my possessions reside while I continue a career that drags me across several states all too much, and most of the non-fiction books are just too deep under the furniture to get at.

The book I am thinking of might alternatively cover the Atlantis, I can't recall. It was one of the small paperbacks from Ballantine, that series also has Patton's, Rudel's, and Galland's volumes in a nice cheap format.

I was able to retrieve my book "The Cavalry of World War II" by Janusz Piekalkiewicz (Stein and Day, New York, 1980), and realized I had assembled some notes from that and after a quick file search of the laptop I found them, not sure if I ever posted them? It is not as good a reference as I had hoped, with a vast majority of the book obviously being the author's personal collection of cavalry pictures. The writing is also completely scattershot, jumping from one first person narrative to another's narrative (from soldiers of different countries) with no warning or clue that is happening until you discover it for yourself as you read. Nonetheless it has details on each country's "last ever cavalry action", generally a small affair in each case. The German cavalry is covered in some detail, including the Cossack units that defected from the Soviets, but always in terms of vignettes and personal reminisces but too few concrete facts. And worst of all, the Soviet cavalry merits just a few scattered pictures and no text whatsoever.

Nonetheless, I was able to assemble a few notes on France and Poland. I have no idea who has been working on those two countries, and how officially 'done' they are, but perhaps this could be of some use, or at least I'm sure all you WWII students will want to read this anyway. If anyone doing a remaining write-up on the CAV pieces I might be able to help, I'm sure those were tough as cavalry just wasn't used much at all in WWII. (They are quite handy at certain points - Africa - in a game of WiF though). So here ya go:

Cavalry in WWII notes

Poland

WWII famously began with Polish cavalry armed with lances charging German Panzers. While this incident did occur, and occured on the first day of the War in Europe, Sept. 1st, 1939, the event is somewhat misconstrued. During the advance of the German 20th Motorized Division the Poles launched a local counterattack spearheaded by two squadrons of the 18th 'Uhlans' cavalry regiment of the 'Pomorska' cavalry brigade. Once the cavalry committed itself to a charge towards a unit of German infantry, a mobile force of German armored cars and tankettes appeared from around a bend in the road and immediately stopped the cavalry which sustained over 50% casualties in only a few minutes. But the cavalry had not conciously decided to charge German tanks. Additionally, the Poles had tried to eliminate the lance as a weapon five years before the war, but individual troopers carried it with them in spite of the regulations against it's further use.

The largest unit of cavalry employed by the Poles was a brigade of 3 or 4 regiments; 11 cavalry brigades participated in battles against both the Germans and the Soviets throughout the country. However the increasing use of automatic weapons by all armies made cavalry forces obsolete, and the Polish cavalry was no exception. This source at one point mentions Poland having 20,000 cavalry soldiers during the campaign while at another point the book mentions the number 70,000. One of these must be a typo which will have to be resolved via another source.

After the campaign some Polish cavalry forces participated in the first guerilla actions in occupied Poland; additionaly those troopers which escaped to the West were re-organized into small cavalry units which were used in the invasion of Vichy-controlled Syria.

France

In 1939 the French Army included three complete cavalry divisions which were reorganized at the beginning of May 1940 into five light cavalry divisions — the Divisions Légères de Cavalerie. These were composite divisions containing a cavalry brigade of two regiments as well as a mechanized brigade including a regiment of infantry in armoured personnel carriers and another using trucks. These fought at various points in the French campaign with no discernible advantage or disadvantage compared to other French units.

The most famous French cavalry unit was the independent Spahis Brigade which was made up of elite troops and officers specially qualified in equestrian skills; the men were French volunteers and a slight majority of North Africans. The Brigade fought with distinction as a mobile reserve throughout France and was still in action as the Armistice was signed. Spahis later served with both Vichy and Free French forces.

The Vichy French kept a cavalry regiment integrated with each infantry division, yet even these were composites of horse, motorcycle, and armoured car squadrons.
A notable French cavalry unit in the Middle East was the Groupement Collet, named after it's Colonel. This force consisted of natives of the Caucasus mountains, called Circassians, which has supplied men to the armies of the world since ancient times. This unit was part of the Vichy forces stationed in Syria but upon learning of the Vichy administration's decision to allow the Luftwaffe to use Syrian airfields it defected to the British forces in neighboring Palestine and took a vigorous part in the subsequent British attack on Syria. This unit included light armoured cars and a squadron of 12 French R-39 tanks and probably forms part of the historical basis for the 'Damascus' Free French City-Based Volunteer unit.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1074
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/27/2009 9:57:28 AM   
warspite1


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I am not sure if there are any Dutch on this Forum but if so then this is for you! The Dutch Navy write-ups are almost complete (one transport and a submarine to go). I am posting three write-ups for the usual feed-back, particularly important as Dutch info is more difficult to come by compared to the Royal Navy and research time is now limited. Before turning draft to final, I would like to know if there are any obvious errors. One question re the game - if a minor country is conquered, do I recall right that there is no ability for its future force pool additions to be built by the conquerer?

Many thanks

1/3

[4746 De Ruyter - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 66,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 32 knots
.B Main armament: 7 x 5.9-inch (150mm), 10 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (Standard): 7,548 tons
.B Thickest armour: 2-inch (belt)
.P The Dutch Navy`s principal role was the protection of her main overseas
possession, the Dutch East Indies. The East Indies (modern day Indonesia)
provided the Netherlands with oil and other raw materials to meet her own
requirements and also provided her with vital export income.
.P To counter the growing threat to the colony posed by the Japanese, in 1930
the Dutch ordered the construction of a cruiser and five submarines. The
cruiser, named De Ruyter, was intended to join the two existing cruisers on
station.
.P Due to financial constraints she was limited to just 5,250 tons, although
during the construction phase there was some relaxation and she eventually came
in at 7,548 full load. The extra weight was caused by increasing her length and
in turn, this allowed the fitting of a single 5.9-inch "B" turret.
.P Her main armament was not impressive for a light cruiser and her anti-
aircraft (AA) armament was of limited use due to the concentration of the guns
aft. This provided only limited arcs of fire. These drawbacks were off-set
somewhat by her excellent fire control system.
.P Her top speed was 32 knots and she had an overload feature which increased
this to 33.5 knots for short periods.
.P De Ruyter was completed in October 1936 and sailed almost immediately for the
Far East where she arrived in March 1937.
.P When Holland was defeated by the Germans in May 1940, Dutch shipping in
European waters were placed under the control of the Admiralty, although this
did not apply to the forces guarding the Dutch East Indies and the naval forces
continued operating in the waters there under Dutch control.
.P In response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and Malaya in December
1941, the Dutch declared war on Japan the following day. De Ruyter and other
Dutch ships assisted the passage of Allied convoys as the British sought to hold
onto Malaya and Singapore; all to no avail. The calamitous start to the war with
Japan brought the assortment of American, British, Dutch and Australian naval
forces together under ABDA command on the 15th January 1942.
.P De Ruyter first saw action on the 4th February. She was the Flagship of Rear-
Admiral Doorman`s mixed US/Dutch force that also consisted of the cruisers
HNLMS Tromp, USS Houston and USS Marblehead and three Dutch and four US
destroyers. They were tasked with intercepting an enemy convoy heading for
Makassar but were spotted by an enemy aircraft and attacked in force. The two
US cruisers were badly damaged and, without air cover himself, Doorman withdrew.
This action is known as the Battle of Makassar Strait.
.P On the 13th February Doorman attempted to attack another Japanese invasion
convoy. This time his force consisted of the cruisers De Ruyter, Tromp, Java,
HMS Exeter and HMAS Hobart together with four Dutch and six US destroyers. Once
again however, the Allied ships failed to get anywhere near the convoy before
being attacked by aircraft on the 15th. This time there was no damage to the
Allied force but it was another demoralising episode.
.P Upon the sighting of another invasion fleet on the 18th; this time making for
Bali, Doorman set out with Java and three destroyers. They were later joined by
Tromp and four US destroyers. The piecemeal arrival of the Allied ships and the
lack of time to prepare all contributed to another defeat for ABDA command. The
operation started badly as the submarines USS Seawolf and HMS Truant were unable
to attack the convoy due to the heavy escort. In the ensuing engagement that
came to be known as the Battle of Badung Strait, the Tromp was badly damaged
and had to retire to Australia for repair, but for the destroyer Piet Hein, the
battle was to be her last. She was struck by a deadly Long Lance torpedo while
trying to make a torpedo attack herself. She sunk within a matter of minutes.
For no gain, the Allied force had to withdraw once more.
.P De Ruyter`s final battle came on the 27th February 1942; the Battle of the
Java Sea. With the seemingly unstoppable Japanese about to strike at Java, every
ship available to Doorman sailed to try and destroy the troop transports. For
this operation Doorman had the heavy cruisers HMS Exeter and the still damaged,
USS Houston; the light cruisers De Ruyter, Java and HMAS Perth and three
British, two Dutch and four US destroyers.
.P The Japanese convoy was escorted by two heavy cruisers, Nachi and Haguro, two
light cruisers, Naka and Jintsu and fourteen destroyers under the command of
Rear-Admiral Nishimura. The Japanese cruisers were more powerfully armed, a
disparity made worse by the damage to Houston`s B turret. They also had the Long
Lance torpedo that was to cause so much damage to the Allied ships.
.P The battle lasted over seven hours as the Allies continually tried to break
through to the troop convoy; each time without success. The battle began at
1616hrs but neither side was able to achieve any hits with one exception. Exeter
was struck by an unlucky shot that smashed into her boiler room. Doorman had
little choice but to order her withdrawal and she left the scene accompanied by
the Dutch destroyer Witte De With.
.P The next phase of the battle saw the Japanese launch a mass torpedo attack
and again the Japanese were in luck. The destroyer Kortenaer was hit by a single
torpedo and she broke in two before quickly disappearing beneath the waves. The
next victim was the British destroyer Electra, she inflicted damage on two enemy
ships but not without damage to herself and she soon had to be abandoned.
.P With things going from bad to worse Doorman broke off at 1800hrs. With night
falling the Allied ships then double backed and tried to take the convoy from
the rear. The four US destroyers however were not with them as they returned to
Java, out of ammunition. A second British destroyer, Jupiter hit a mine and sank
at 2125hrs.
.P The Allied ships had not got around the escorts however, and at 2300hrs, fire
was once more exchanged. The Long Lance torpedo then came into play with
devastating effect and both the De Ruyter and Java were hit about thirty minutes
later. For both, the damage caused was terminal and they both sank in the early
hours of the following morning. The two remaining cruisers and one destroyer
meanwhile had withdrawn.
.P 345 officers and men died aboard De Ruyter including Doorman.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/27/2009 10:05:10 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1075
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/27/2009 9:58:33 AM   
warspite1


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2/3

[4752 Tromp - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 56,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 33.5 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 5.9-inch (150mm), 8 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (Standard): 4,800 tons
.B Thickest armour: 0.6-inch (belt)
.P The two ship Tromp-class were originally designed as "Flotilla Leaders",
that would lead a modern class of destroyer then planned. During their design
process, they grew in size to the extent that they could re-classified as light
cruisers but they were still very small for a cruiser type; about two thirds of
the size of the Royal Navy`s (RN) Arethusa.
.P They were thinly armoured ships with a main belt of less than an inch thick.
This sacrifice in armour allowed the high speed necessary for operating with
destroyers.
.P Tromp was completed in August 1938 and at the outbreak of World War II she
was on her way to the Dutch East Indies. With Holland initially neutral, she had
a quiet time on her new station, and even after the German invasion of Holland
in May 1940, she saw little in the way of action. She took part in the search
for HMAS Sydney which had been lost to the German raider Kormoran in November
1941 but otherwise life was relatively routine. However that peace was shattered
the following month when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. The Dutch declared
war on Japan the following day and Dutch ships were soon used to assist the
escort of convoys to and from Singapore as the British fought to save Malaya and
Singapore from the Japanese invaders.
.P Tromp took part in a number of these convoy operations during December and
January but sadly they did not affect the outcome of the battle. The Dutch knew
that it would be the turn of the East Indies and its precious oil next. An
Eastern Striking Force was set up to attack Japanese invasion convoys at the
start of February. This initially consisted of the Dutch cruisers De Ruyter and
Tromp, the American cruisers Houston and Marblehead and three Dutch and four
American destroyers. This strike force, took part in a number of operations to
attack the Japanese but all met with failure and heavy loss (see HNLMS De
Ruyter).
.P During one of these engagements, the Battle of Badung Strait, Tromp was hit
eleven times by Japanese shells from the destroyer Asashio and she retired to
Java. As a result, Tromp sailed for Australia to be repaired and so missed the
carnage of the Battle of the Java Sea at the end of February.
.P During her repairs she received substantial increases to her anti-aircraft
(AA) armament and was ready for service at the end of April 1942. From
Australia in May, Tromp took part in escorting a number of largely Dutch
merchant vessels to New Guinea. These ships were carrying Australian troops of
the 14th Infantry Brigade. Tromp remained in Australian waters until October
1943 and for part of that time was based at Freemantle within Task Force 71.4
under US command. During that time she took part in the important Pamphlet
convoy (see HNLMS Heemskerck).
.P At the end of the year, Tromp was transferred to Colombo, Ceylon to join the
Royal Navy (RN) and their Eastern Fleet. She arrived on the 20th January 1944
but almost immediately damaged her propeller and required a period of repair.
Upon completion, Tromp played her full part in Eastern Fleet operations, taking
part in Operation Cockpit in April. This fleet operation was a carrier strike
against Japanese positions at Sabang, Sumatra. Tromp was part of Force 69 that
provided support to the carriers of Force 70.
.P The following month, Tromp took part in another carrier strike operation,
this time Operation Transom which was designed to attack the Japanese at
Soerbaya, Java. Once again Tromp provided support to the carrier force.
.P In July, the Eastern Fleet were back at Sabang for the carrier strike
operation, Crimson. Tromp and a force of destroyers were tasked with bombarding
the harbour area and she received light damage in this operation from enemy
counter-fire.
.P For the next carrier operation in August, Tromp was used to escort the Royal
Fleet Auxiliary oilers which provided refuelling capability for the fleet. Then
in September, Tromp left the Indian Ocean and headed for Australia for repairs.
She arrived in Sydney in October and the repair work lasted until February 1945.
She left Sydney and returned to the Eastern Fleet, by then re-named as the East
Indies Fleet following the splitting of the fleet by the creation of the British
Pacific Fleet the previous November.
.P As part of the 5th Cruiser Squadron, Tromp took part in Operation Dracula in
April 1945. This was the amphibious landing at Rangoon, Burma. This was followed
at the start of May by Operation Dukedom, during which the Japanese cruiser
Haguro was sunk by a RN destroyer flotilla. This was Tromp`s last operation with
the British as she was then transferred back to Australia to join the US 7th
Fleet. The US forces were about to assault the Dutch East Indies; Operation
Oboe and Tromp was available in time for Oboe II where she was part of Task
Force 74.2. Tromp took part in the pre-invasion bombardment at Balikpapan from
the 19th June, opening the way for two Australian brigades of the 7th Infantry
Division to land. Tromp remained on station until mid-July when she returned to
Australia. This was Tromp`s last action of the war. The Japanese surrendered in
August and Tromp was returned to the British East Indies Fleet.
.P HNLMS Tromp was scrapped in 1969.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1076
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/27/2009 10:01:04 AM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
3/3 Final write-up - a "what if" counter

[5110 van Oranje - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 180,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 34 knots
.B Main armament: 9 x 11-inch (280mm), 12 x 4.7-inch (120mm) guns
.B Displacement (Standard): 28,000 tons
.B Thickest armour: 9-inch (belt)
.P The Dutch Navy`s principal role was the protection of her main overseas
possession, the Dutch East Indies. The East Indies (modern day Indonesia)
provided the Netherlands with oil and other raw materials to meet her own
requirements and also provided her with vital export income.
.P To counter the growing threat to the colony posed by the Japanese, in 1940
the Dutch ordered the construction of three battlecruisers to be used
specifically in the Far East. These ships would be the spearhead for a small but
effective fleet that would, it was hoped, be used in conjunction with a more
powerful ally such as the British or the Americans, should war with Japan ensue.
.P As it turned out, the German invasion of Holland in May 1940 put an end to
these plans. Therefore in World In Flames, these ships are "what if" counters
and become available if the Dutch stay in the game for long enough. Only two of
the three proposed vessels may be built.
.P Although the Dutch had a long history of shipbuilding, these vessels were far
larger than anything they had built before and so, ironically, the Dutch looked
to the Germans for assistance in the design work. For this reason, the ships
were very similar to the Scharnhorst-class.
.P These vessels would have been fast and very powerful additions to the Dutch
fleet, although as true battlecruisers, their armour was over 4-inches thinner
than the Scharnhorsts and was more in line with that of the British
battlecruisers Renown and Repulse. They would have been unlikely to have been
completed before 1944.
.P They were never offically named, but two of the likely names would have been
Gouden Leeuw (Golden Lion) and Van Oranje (Prince William of Orange).

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1077
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/27/2009 2:57:29 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

One question re the game - if a minor country is conquered, do I recall right that there is no ability for its future force pool additions to be built by the conquerer?



After looking at the minor country rules and the conquest rules I would say that you get the annual additions of a a minor country if you added the minors force pool before it was incompletely conquered untill the minor is completely conquered.

Cut from:
19.4 Minor country units
Production
After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power’s force pools. You can do this at any time while the minor is not conquered (incomplete or complete) but, once you do, its units must always go into your force pools as they become available.

13.7.1 Conquest
Complete conquest
When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with. Remove all its land and aircraft units from the game (exception: special Polish units, see 19.5.1). They no longer receive any annual additions to their force pools (see 4.1.1).


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1078
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/27/2009 7:24:41 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

One question re the game - if a minor country is conquered, do I recall right that there is no ability for its future force pool additions to be built by the conquerer?



After looking at the minor country rules and the conquest rules I would say that you get the annual additions of a a minor country if you added the minors force pool before it was incompletely conquered untill the minor is completely conquered.

Cut from:
19.4 Minor country units
Production
After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power’s force pools. You can do this at any time while the minor is not conquered (incomplete or complete) but, once you do, its units must always go into your force pools as they become available.

13.7.1 Conquest
Complete conquest
When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with. Remove all its land and aircraft units from the game (exception: special Polish units, see 19.5.1). They no longer receive any annual additions to their force pools (see 4.1.1).

Warspite 1

Thanks Orm - so if for some reason Germany only invaded Holland in 1943 (and it had not been attacked by anyone else in the meantime), the CW as controlling power for example, would set up the Dutch units and these would include Van Oranje as its has 1941 on the back of the counter?


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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1079
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/27/2009 9:08:55 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

One question re the game - if a minor country is conquered, do I recall right that there is no ability for its future force pool additions to be built by the conquerer?



After looking at the minor country rules and the conquest rules I would say that you get the annual additions of a a minor country if you added the minors force pool before it was incompletely conquered untill the minor is completely conquered.

Cut from:
19.4 Minor country units
Production
After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power’s force pools. You can do this at any time while the minor is not conquered (incomplete or complete) but, once you do, its units must always go into your force pools as they become available.

13.7.1 Conquest
Complete conquest
When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with. Remove all its land and aircraft units from the game (exception: special Polish units, see 19.5.1). They no longer receive any annual additions to their force pools (see 4.1.1).

Warspite 1

Thanks Orm - so if for some reason Germany only invaded Holland in 1943 (and it had not been attacked by anyone else in the meantime), the CW as controlling power for example, would set up the Dutch units and these would include Van Oranje as its has 1941 on the back of the counter?


Yes.

There is a rule about some naval units going into the construction pool as "half built". I don't remember it off the top of my head but it depends on the year the unit was built historically (my guess is that if the situation you described happened in 1940, the Commonwealth would get the 1941 Dutch naval unit in its construction pool).

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1080
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