Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Murmansk????

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Murmansk???? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Murmansk???? - 6/30/2009 12:16:10 AM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline 		One question... maybe later I will have some more...

Judging by map and your notice that you will include map to 150 miles north of Leningrad. That means that Murmansk and large part of Finish front will be excluded.

Not a very good idea for a game that has ambition to cover whole Russo-German war.
That doesn't sound too promising, because I wonder what reference has you included in your reserach of OOB then (C. Sharp / Nafziger, Glantz, other???).

You may say that Murmansk part of the front is insignificant but Fire in the East scenario for TOAW does include it and it is free scenario for TOAW. So I would expect Murmansk to be included in the game that covers Russo-German war.
And to say in the start I don't think that Murmansk is so insignificant.

Your game called WITP included all theathers of war in the Pacific.

Hmmm... OK it's just me - and maybe it would be too complex but maybe for what if scenario it would be nice to include almost whole USSR up to Far East - with possibility of Japan attack on Vladivostok, Trans Baycal etc... So Russian player could not pull more unit's from that front.


But let's forget Siberia now. Murmansk. OK, problem with Murmansk with other games was that Russian player could muster many unit's that were not part of that front. In my games of FiTE I managed to capture Murmansk through my generalship even if I had far too many distance to cover to get some of my units there by ship and foot and Russian player could get there by rail and sea more quickly.
Historically that was the part of the front were actually Russian had lesser men then Finish and German because they were on defense (up to 1944).
Some good what if's are in fact located there as in fact Germans stationed 160 arty batteries in Norway and enormous garrisons because they feared UK invasion there. And UK didn't invaded there because they knew that Germans had strong garrisons.

But, what if Germans did in fact tried more to capture Murmansk? What if Finns and German 163. division did tried to put more pressure to capture Leningrad or link with German forces that did get to Tikhvin in November of 1941. Then Leningrad would be sealed much tighter and eventually he would be captured in 1942.

Then we come to completely another topic of weapon production and OKW/OKH distribution of forces. What if Germans tried to put more efforts in war productions in winter of 1941/42? (tanks, planes, all other arms) and what if they did put more divisiosn on Eastern Front? Would that change something or not? Maybe not...

Of course that I will buy this game but I just hope that it will be good and not lousier than free scenario for TOAW
















< Message edited by Monkeys Brain -- 6/30/2009 12:44:16 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Murmansk???? - 6/30/2009 12:58:57 AM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline 		On another thing, I did read somewhere that if Germans had captured Murmansk, Manerheim was willing to put more pressure on Leningrad itself. So basically key of taking of Leningrad was also Murmansk itself. Not to mention that all those goods that arrived via Murmans through convoys (lend lease) would not be there and would have to be shipped through Caucaus or Vladivostok

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 2
RE: Murmansk???? - 6/30/2009 8:35:00 AM   
Trigger Happy


Posts: 819
Joined: 3/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, that's weird that murmansk isn't included.. though I can see why.

_____________________________


(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 3
RE: Murmansk???? - 6/30/2009 9:54:28 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Why guys? Just cut the rail line north (if you can) end of problem...

(in reply to Trigger Happy)
Post #: 4
RE: Murmansk???? - 6/30/2009 2:09:07 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I agree that Murmansk/Archangel were very important objectives and the Germans did make some effort toward advancing toward them with Alpine units, but like Pyle suggested, their importance can be reflected without it being actually on the map. I guess they had to draw a limit at some point and Murmansk/Archangel just didn't fit. I guess there could even be off map boxes to hold any forces assigned to those areas. I can't imagine that they will simply be ignored or that Lend Lease won't be a factor in the game.

_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 5
RE: Murmansk???? - 6/30/2009 4:03:17 PM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

I agree that Murmansk/Archangel were very important objectives and the Germans did make some effort toward advancing toward them with Alpine units, but like Pyle suggested, their importance can be reflected without it being actually on the map. I guess they had to draw a limit at some point and Murmansk/Archangel just didn't fit. I guess there could even be off map boxes to hold any forces assigned to those areas. I can't imagine that they will simply be ignored or that Lend Lease won't be a factor in the game.



Agree. It is not a deal breaker and of course that I will buy this game first day on release. It is like cutting Australia from War in the Pacific - actually there was not any fighting there, Japanese only bombed some port etc...


(in reply to sol_invictus)
Post #: 6
RE: Murmansk???? - 6/30/2009 4:31:01 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		No, really it would be like cutting the SW corner of Australia out...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 7
RE: Murmansk???? - 6/30/2009 5:34:28 PM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

No, really it would be like cutting the SW corner of Australia out...



Nope. In Australia there was not fighting only in wild ahistorical situation in WITP did Japanese player invade Australia. In real life that would not be so easy.
If you have numbers then back your arguments.

The USSR front was purposely left out and Finish front and Murmansk as well. First was left out as in history there was not fighting (although in real life Stalin hesitated to pull units from there fearing Japan invasion and when it did pull out he immediately mobilized numbers of division to replace those he have taken - source ERICKSON "ROAD TO STALINGRAD").

Finish front did have fighting and many operations there - it was not significant compared to other fronts but... Operation Polarfuchs German offensice to capture Murmansk, few more there, then Soviet Kirkenes Petsamo operation etc...).


(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 8
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 1:39:18 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		Finland - not included?

thats not good ...

Suggest thats corrected...

Please make a map that covers everything or the whinning will never stop

Cav

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 9
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 4:13:19 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		You'll have to keep on whining. Gary decided to leave off the northern reaches of Finland as it would have meant adding another 50 or so hex rows to the map. The map is already bigger than the WitP map, and we felt adding on the additional map area was not essential. We are assuming a stalemate on the Murmansk front. In the ideal world we'd have Murmansk, but we just couldn't see adding those extra 10,000 hexes. You can whine all you want now but the map isn't going to change. Maybe someday when we get around to War in Europe we'll consider it.

(in reply to Cavalry Corp)
Post #: 10
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 4:18:03 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I don't think we will miss much or even notice that the Arctic Front is not included. I think the Germans will have their hands full in the more "temperate" climes.

_____________________________

"The fruit of too much liberty is slavery", Cicero

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 11
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 7:06:14 PM   
steveh11Matrix


Posts: 944
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Maybe someday when we get around to War in Europe we'll consider it.

You KNOW we're going to be bugging you for that, now!

Steve

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 12
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 7:10:42 PM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You'll have to keep on whining. Gary decided to leave off the northern reaches of Finland as it would have meant adding another 50 or so hex rows to the map. The map is already bigger than the WitP map, and we felt adding on the additional map area was not essential. We are assuming a stalemate on the Murmansk front. In the ideal world we'd have Murmansk, but we just couldn't see adding those extra 10,000 hexes. You can whine all you want now but the map isn't going to change. Maybe someday when we get around to War in Europe we'll consider it.



Nice attitude

BTW, we or I, are not "whining" just for "whining" per se.

Maybe we can agree to some degree that this is not so significant in big picture. And maybe game would need house rules so that Russian player don't ship 10 division there or German something which would be wildly ahistorical and could lead to some strange situations like enraged Finnns that doesn't want to stop it on Finish stop line when they make counteroffensive...

Whatever maybe this could be done some way... with some house rules.

But again must say that your excuse is lame - we have that part of the map in Fire in The East 5.0 which is FREE scenario for TOAW if I must remind you and your game is a full commercial product and just as I said this is example for cutting corners for developer. But that is just my opinion. You may disagree...

Because adding that map would not mean that with house rules that would make million ant units clogging the gameplay. And when you say 10000 heyes that is not inestment in art department like buying a new Quake XXXL engine, don't think so...

Whatever...

Keep up the good work and of course just I said I will buy the game. But some critique will not kill you - once the game is released you will get many of that. Especially from history buffs like me who have read everything they could get their hands on - on Eastern Front.

On a more positive tone - I am glad that you are doing this game and that it will eventually be released. I have played Second Front on my Amiga and had good memories on that game (that was really long time ago!).

Kindest regards,


Mario





(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 13
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 7:24:20 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		You could have atleast added half of east-karelia. That would have been only few more rows. North of that there was not much anyways up until murmansk.

One way to add murmansk could have been to cut the map short with borders like in som toaw scenarios.

EDIT: Correction east karelia might be there. The small world map is just bit blurry so I cant say it for sure.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 7/1/2009 7:34:16 PM >

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 14
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 7:44:44 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

EDIT: Correction east karelia might be there. The small world map is just bit blurry so I cant say it for sure.

The nothern most town in Karelia is Suojarvi

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 15
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 7:56:29 PM   
33Vyper


Posts: 542
Joined: 10/20/2004
From: New Westminster BC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You'll have to keep on whining. Gary decided to leave off the northern reaches of Finland as it would have meant adding another 50 or so hex rows to the map. The map is already bigger than the WitP map, and we felt adding on the additional map area was not essential. We are assuming a stalemate on the Murmansk front. In the ideal world we'd have Murmansk, but we just couldn't see adding those extra 10,000 hexes. You can whine all you want now but the map isn't going to change. Maybe someday when we get around to War in Europe we'll consider it.




oh god you said it....W.I.E. the motherload of all games

Sooo can you have that ready for Christmas 2009 or should I plan it as an Easter present in 2010?

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 16
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 8:35:23 PM   
Jison

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline 		I have nothing clever to add to this discussion - just that this game is a dream coming true for me, with or without Murmansk. I have waited for a long long time, so thank you guys for making this beauty!

Jison

< Message edited by Jison -- 7/1/2009 8:52:51 PM >

_____________________________




(in reply to 33Vyper)
Post #: 17
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 11:42:55 PM   
Endsieg

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: North Atlantic Treaty Organization
Status: offline 		someone needs to move to Murmansk, buy a house there , get a job and get a life, otherwise this game in development might just be disaster

(in reply to Jison)
Post #: 18
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/1/2009 11:48:42 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endsieg

someone needs to move to Murmansk, buy a house there , get a job and get a life, otherwise this game in development might just be disaster


Do they even have i-net in Murmansk?

(in reply to Endsieg)
Post #: 19
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 12:33:22 AM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Endsieg

someone needs to move to Murmansk, buy a house there , get a job and get a life, otherwise this game in development might just be disaster



And your point is exactly what?

It would be really nice how much exactly books on Eastern Front did you read in your ENTIRE life. Then I will post mine collection. We can compare.


(in reply to Endsieg)
Post #: 20
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 1:04:39 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

EDIT: Correction east karelia might be there. The small world map is just bit blurry so I cant say it for sure.

The nothern most town in Karelia is Suojarvi

Note I said "half" of it. Especially southern one where som ww2 combat was seen.

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 21
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 9:37:21 AM   
tacfire


Posts: 138
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline 		I am not sure how supply works in this game, but knowing Mr. Grigsby it will be important. Therefore, I think you have to consider Lend-Lease, which makes Murmansk a strategic location in my opinion. There is no need to create a map with 10,000 more hexes. There are at least 2 other options that I can think of...

1. Just draw the map hexes around the Karelia peninsula / Murmansk region - leave the rest of Northern Europe as white space - kind of like what the did on the WiTP map around Alaska.

2. Some kind of off-map city box supply source maybe? Like what they are doing for the Panama Canal in the AE Edition of WiTP.

Just some ideas.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 22
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 11:18:36 AM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		For certain the Germans need to be able to allocate ships , planes U boats etc to interdict it

Cav

(in reply to tacfire)
Post #: 23
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 6:07:56 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Murmansk is in game, not on map.

Most of lend lease didn't go through Mumansk - only 22.6%

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to tacfire)
Post #: 24
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 6:22:43 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		To simplify an already very complex and vast game, Gary and Joel made these decisions. Once you get the game you won't think about northern Finland. Also the game assumes the Wallies are doing things historicly. So we don't get to play with Allied bombers or U-boats...It really works out fine, your already dealing with hundreds of units as it is and it keeps the excitment up...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 25
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 7:05:25 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		A lot of suppply came in from Iran too!! There was a dedicated rail line up over the mountains and into Russia! I worked with a guy who was a locomotive engineer on that railroad during the war.

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 26
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 10:56:38 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

A lot of suppply came in from Iran too!! There was a dedicated rail line up over the mountains and into Russia! I worked with a guy who was a locomotive engineer on that railroad during the war.


Most of lend-lease went via Pacific - 43.8%
Iran - 23.8%
Atlantic (Murmansk/Arkhangelsk) - 22.6%
Black Sea - 3.9%
Arctic - 2.6%

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 27
RE: Murmansk???? - 7/2/2009 11:03:24 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Pavel (helpless) is the main man in our research and map development. I'm just a jockey and rides the horse hard...I love the guy...Btw my name is Jon...

_____________________________

Jon Pyle
AWD Beta tester
WBTS Alpha tester
WitE Alpha tester
WitW Alpha tester
WitE2 Alpha tester

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 28
RE: Murmansk???? - 8/4/2009 10:03:41 PM   
Shupov


Posts: 286
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Why guys? Just cut the rail line north (if you can) end of problem...


Does cutting the Murmansk rail line interdict 22% of Lend Lease? That seems reasonable...

_____________________________

STALINADE

The real RED soda!

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 29
RE: Murmansk???? - 8/4/2009 11:45:25 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Maybe someday when we get around to War in Europe we'll consider it.

You KNOW we're going to be bugging you for that, now!

Steve


LOL

_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to steveh11Matrix)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Murmansk???? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.172