Wargames with competitive AI

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Wargames with competitive AI - 7/3/2009 8:09:48 PM

wilecki

Posts: 61
Joined: 2/1/2009
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Hi,

I couldn't find any existing thread here that would give me answers to that question. So I'm asking you guys, which wargames' AI do you find able to stand against a human player without cheating? And please don't write anything like "AI will never be a match to a human player. Now go play PBEM and stop asking stupid questions already.". I agree that it is difficult for scripted AI to behave like a human, making human mistakes, plotting plans inside plans, thinking on different levels (i.e. strategic, tactical, operational) etc., and the more complicated game the more difficult it becomes. Deep Blue showed that it's not impossible and won on equal terms :)

Post #: 1

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/3/2009 8:30:45 PM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

Hey Recruit-welcome

IMHO-the absolutely best ai that I have encountered is with Conquest of the Aegean (CotA). There are other games that have a pretty decent ai, but one that you will be able to take advantage of after you become familiar with the game. It will take much longer to be able to do that in CotA.

Check out CotA. If you prefer strategic type games then some other suggestions can be made.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=123

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Post #: 2

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/3/2009 8:40:26 PM

killroyishere

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline

Well there's not many that play very well on normal difficulty. But, the best ai's I have found with a little bit of an advantage are Mad Minutes Bull Run & 2nd Manassas. Combat Mission if you let the ai play the defender and only play like 20-25 turns and handicap it about 10-20% and +2-+3 combat advantage. Medieval Total War origional with the XL modification. Sid Meiers Alien Crossfire/Alpha Centauri. Heroes of Might & Magic II because it has selective ai intelligence and you can set it to your challenge level. Galactic Civilization II up to the Twilight expansion a must have as the ai is intense in that expansion. Knights of Honor (this one can be a monster as the ai is pretty relentless). Civilization II, Forge of Freedom. Warlords IV, Master of Magic, Master of Orion 2, Empire Deluxe, Spartan, Highway to the Reich, Conquest of the Agean, Panzer Commands Kharkov and the Tin Soldiers Series Alexander and Caesar.

That's the ones I have and play and like the challenge. Most are going to cheat somewhat though. Other than chess there just really isn't a very strong ai without some cheats and handicaps and most gamers over the years have learned to accept this and play against those challenges and even those ai on most games aren't very tough even when they cheat and you know they are cheating.

The one thing I've learned over the years is the more you play a game against the ai the more you learn how it plays and it hardly ever deviates from that and that is the biggest problem with most ai's is they never change their habits. It would be nice if say they made 10 different ai personalities in games and then you could just let the game pick a random ai from that list. Then it would take a long time I think to figure out which one you were playing against and what worked before you'd probably forget anyways.

The other problem is sometimes ai's get into these stupid loops of moving back and forth and do that for most of the entire game unless you do something to break the loop. I've seen units in Warlords move back and forth up and down a road nearly the entire game never committing those units until I attacked and destroyed them.

The big big biggest problem I have though is after 30 years you'd think that ai programming would have improved. Look at everything else that has increased 100 fold in graphics and speed, but, the ai is still as pitiful as it was in the 80's even moreso really in some of these games. You'd think with quad core processors now they could use 3 of those cores for ai programming alone. But, nooooo it has to be for speed and graphics.

(in reply to wilecki)

Post #: 3

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/4/2009 3:22:08 PM

Joram

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
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Tin Soldiers...

(in reply to killroyishere)

Post #: 4

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/4/2009 11:50:42 PM

Deathtreader

Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/22/2003
From: Vancouver, Canada.
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Hi Wilecki,

Like 06maestro, I'd have to say Highway To the Reich (HTTR) and Conquest of the Aegean (COTA) both by Panther Games are the hands down winners for challenging AI.
SSG's Kharkov game (using the AO feature) isn't bad either but is definitely second in that ranking. Only my opinions of course........

Good gaming!!

Rob.

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Post #: 5

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 12:33:50 AM

Fred98

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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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In my view COTA is the only game with a good AI.

Or to rephrase, the AI is a tough opponent.

It is not for me to comment on the AI per se, but the design of the game makes any opponent difficult.

-

(in reply to Deathtreader)

Post #: 6

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 1:56:03 AM

wilecki

Posts: 61
Joined: 2/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
The big big biggest problem I have though is after 30 years you'd think that ai programming would have improved. Look at everything else that has increased 100 fold in graphics and speed, but, the ai is still as pitiful as it was in the 80's even moreso really in some of these games. You'd think with quad core processors now they could use 3 of those cores for ai programming alone. But, nooooo it has to be for speed and graphics.

Hi,

That's a pretty depressing but still true point you've made. I guess we have to accept the trends in gaming industry. I can imagine that it is very tempting to put most of the effort in graphics because you as a player get visible, immediate results of the designer's work. One thing I don't understand is all this hype around 3D. I personally don't like 3D games almost at all. It's one of the reasons I didn't really like Combat Mission (one of the games you mention) because it made it look uglier than for instance a few years older Close Combat.

Now AI is something completely different. It's not easy to design something between an insulting stupid and never making mistakes genius. It will always be the toughest part of a strategy game and take the same amount of effort to design and that explains why you don't see such improvements here as in graphics or speed. Unless they come up with something adaptive and able to learn :)

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Post #: 7

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 2:01:13 AM

wilecki

Posts: 61
Joined: 2/1/2009
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Thanks for all your replies

It's hard not to notice that most of you point to the Airborne Assault series having the toughest AI. I've heard few positive things about those games already but haven't tried them out yet. Now with your suggestions I think I'm gonna do it and I'll start with HttR. I hope it won't take long to get used to lack of hexes :)

Second most often listed was Tin Soldiers. I'll most certainly look into those games as well, also because of interesting time period and looks.

Greets!

(in reply to Fred98)

Post #: 8

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 12:56:43 PM

Joe D.

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Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wilecki

It's hard not to notice that most of you point to the Airborne Assault series having the toughest AI. I've heard few positive things about those games already but haven't tried them out yet. Now with your suggestions I think I'm gonna do it and I'll start with HttR ...

I have HttR: it's an enjoyable game, but the AA engine was inproved w/CotA.
I'm currently waiting for the release of BftB.

I also recommend AGEOD games for its "Athena" engine; it's AI is always being fine-tuned.

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Post #: 9

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 2:16:42 PM

redcoat

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From: UK
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Out of the games that I have played only two have featured a really tough AI: Sid Meiers Gettysburg and Ancient Warfare: Punic Wars (HPS). I haven�t tried the Airborne Assault series. Maybe I should � after reading the recommendations in this thread.

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Post #: 10

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 3:49:45 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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COTA's AI is indeed outstanding. However, I feel that a lot of our games have excellent AI when I compare them to what else is on the market. I won't single out any of them, but asking around on the forums you can get a good idea. I would say that games with mediocre AI are the exception here rather than the rule.

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Post #: 11

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 7:09:54 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wilecki

quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
The big big biggest problem I have though is after 30 years you'd think that ai programming would have improved. Look at everything else that has increased 100 fold in graphics and speed, but, the ai is still as pitiful as it was in the 80's even moreso really in some of these games. You'd think with quad core processors now they could use 3 of those cores for ai programming alone. But, nooooo it has to be for speed and graphics.

Hi,

That's a pretty depressing but still true point you've made. I guess we have to accept the trends in gaming industry. I can imagine that it is very tempting to put most of the effort in graphics because you as a player get visible, immediate results of the designer's work. One thing I don't understand is all this hype around 3D. I personally don't like 3D games almost at all. It's one of the reasons I didn't really like Combat Mission (one of the games you mention) because it made it look uglier than for instance a few years older Close Combat.

Now AI is something completely different. It's not easy to design something between an insulting stupid and never making mistakes genius. It will always be the toughest part of a strategy game and take the same amount of effort to design and that explains why you don't see such improvements here as in graphics or speed. Unless they come up with something adaptive and able to learn :)

I think it's tough to make a living as a specialist in AI programming for wargames. But a being a great graphics programmer or 3D artist, you will probably alwyas be in demand.

I think most times AI gets tossed into the general programmer bin and maybe with some additional oversight from a developer. In most cases, these types of titles are developed by small numbers of people so there isn't really room for a dedicated AI developer.

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(in reply to wilecki)

Post #: 12

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 8:04:36 PM

wilecki

Posts: 61
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I would say that games with mediocre AI are the exception here rather than the rule.

I sure hope so and will try to filter those mediocre ones out :)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 13

RE: Wargames with competitive AI - 7/5/2009 8:58:45 PM

wilecki

Posts: 61
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.
I think it's tough to make a living as a specialist in AI programming for wargames. But a being a great graphics programmer or 3D artist, you will probably alwyas be in demand.

I think most times AI gets tossed into the general programmer bin and maybe with some additional oversight from a developer. In most cases, these types of titles are developed by small numbers of people so there isn't really room for a dedicated AI developer.

..which is a pity because to me designing AI engines sounds like a pretty fascinating programming job. Maybe not as rewarding and appreciated as in graphics but still fascinating.

Cheers!

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)

Post #: 14