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RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 7:37:09 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

Isnt ZOC negated by the pressence of friendly units? Then we've played it wrong

For supply - yes. For tracing resources - no, although you can trace a resource out of a hex occupied by a friendly unit in an enemy ZOC, you can't trace further on along rail lines that are in enemy ZOC. For land movement - never.

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(in reply to praem)
Post #: 91
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 7:50:24 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

Isnt ZOC negated by the pressence of friendly units? Then we've played it wrong

For supply - yes. For tracing resources - no, although you can trace a resource out of a hex occupied by a friendly unit in an enemy ZOC, you can't trace further on along rail lines that are in enemy ZOC. For land movement - never.


For rail movement... Wasn't there a rule that it could be possible to start or reach (but never cross) in an enemy ZOC but not both?

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Post #: 92
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 8:37:57 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

Isnt ZOC negated by the pressence of friendly units? Then we've played it wrong

For supply - yes. For tracing resources - no, although you can trace a resource out of a hex occupied by a friendly unit in an enemy ZOC, you can't trace further on along rail lines that are in enemy ZOC. For land movement - never.


For rail movement... Wasn't there a rule that it could be possible to start or reach (but never cross) in an enemy ZOC but not both?

Yes. Provided there is a friendly unit in the hex, rail movement can leave (and enter) enemy ZOCs, but once entering an enemy ZOC, they must stop.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 93
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 9:12:34 AM   
Joseignacio


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Status: offline 		Thx Steve.

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Post #: 94
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 12:37:44 PM   
Caquineur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
Noticed a typo in the Chungking warlord description. It reads "after the dead of Liu" in the second paragraph (if I recall correctly). The correct form is, I trust, obvious.


Thanks for that - I missed this one...

And thanks to lomyrin for this thread ! Very nice.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 95
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 6:05:32 PM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
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Status: offline 		Snowy weather continues and the Cinese reinforced the weaker units in the south in the critical hexes for the resource to deny it to the Japanese.

Japan impulse 9 shows no better weather than in the past in this turn and Japan's units in positions for attacks both in the north and the south are all disrupted and cannot do anything this turn. Japan began moving a Marine from the front towards Changsha for railing to the coast later.




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Post #: 96
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 7:53:36 PM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
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From: Davenport, Iowa
Status: offline 		I realize the USSR is neutral, removing a large constraint from Japan. The weather has been moderate and the Japanese luck for combat perhaps a bit bad.

However, it seems like China is doing quite well and will hurt Japan later in the war.

From this example, Japan is in real trouble. Perhaps strat bombing is needed.



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Iowa, USA

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Post #: 97
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 8:08:34 PM   
micheljq


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Status: offline 		I don't see the so called large USSR constraint on Japan. USSR almost never can afford a large commitment in Asia, because as soon as USSR will do this, Germany will come at his throat and kill USSR, at least in 1940-42.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 7/7/2009 8:18:45 PM >

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Post #: 98
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 8:34:23 PM   
composer99


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Status: offline 		Not if Germany is building for a Sealion, it won't.

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Post #: 99
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 9:02:36 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Not if Germany is building for a Sealion, it won't.


If I play Germany and prepares a Sealion, I will cancel it and attack USSR if it weakens his western front you can bet.

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Post #: 100
RE: War in China - 7/7/2009 9:10:52 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Not if Germany is building for a Sealion, it won't.


If I play Germany and prepares a Sealion, I will cancel it and attack USSR if it weakens his western front you can bet.

Warspite 1

......and all these comments above just go to prove why this game is quite simply the best. Winning this game is so often about the ability to have a versatile plan that can exploit weakness caused by, for example, your opponent doing something stupid or simply rolling too many rubbish dice at crucial moments. There are no perfect plans. Goodness I`m itching to play this again!!


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Post #: 101
RE: War in China - 7/8/2009 3:35:38 AM   
lomyrin


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Status: offline 		January/February 41 and Japan has the initiative but the weather is bad, Blizzard in the north and Fine in the south.

Japan attacks the forest hex near the resource in the south and this time succeeds in taking the ehx and breaking the Chinese lines without any losses or disruptions of the Japanese forces. A Marine is moving towards the coast at Canton.

In the north all is calm with nothing happening.




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Post #: 102
RE: War in China - 7/8/2009 6:33:25 AM   
lomyrin


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Status: offline 		The second Japanese impulse in J/F 41 is already impulse number 7 but the weather in the south is still fine and in the north snow.

There was not much China could do in their first impulse so they stayed put hoping for a not so good Japanese attack following their impulse. Japan did attack again with HQ support by Yamamoto and this time they took the next hex in the south mountains that now allows Japan to send home the third resource added since this war begun in 39. Japan lost a Div and 3 more uits were disrupted but China lost a Mil and an Infantry unit.

With luck Japan might still hurt China a little more before they have to redeploy for the Pacific Campaign. In Japan's favor it looks like the US is far from ready to make serious trouble for Japan based on the entry actions the US has taken so far.

Japan is using some newly built aircraft to augment their garrison ratings to stop partisans from showing up.



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< Message edited by lomyrin -- 7/8/2009 6:34:52 AM >

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Post #: 103
RE: War in China - 7/8/2009 5:19:42 PM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
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Status: offline 		Would it be possible to give us a turn by turn or summary of Chinese losses and builds and Japanese losses?

How long are you playing out this scenario?

Thanks for the postings.



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Iowa, USA

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Post #: 104
RE: War in China - 7/8/2009 5:44:45 PM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Would it be possible to give us a turn by turn or summary of Chinese losses and builds and Japanese losses?

How long are you playing out this scenario?

Thanks for the postings.




I have not been tracking the losses exactly but in general the Chinese have lost at least twice the Japanese losses in BP cost.

On the other hand for the Japanese to recoup their losses in terms of new BP from the Chinese resources they are only now beginning to reap the rewards of those resources and ought to be able to get them at least until 42 even though they will have to stop in China and pay attention to the Pacific areas. So my estimate is that they will have gained perhaps 20 BP over the loss costs by mid 42. Eventually China is likely to be able to push the Japanese back from the resources.

Japan buiilt all infantry the first 3 turns but then mixed in ships and aircraft as well and they have built enough to be ready for the Commonwealth attack by summer of 41.

If the extra Chinese cities option was not used, then the southern mountain cities disappear and the Chinese will be much less able to defend there due to supply problems. The Communists would also have a more difficult time.

I will probably continue a few more turns but after that it would involve a much wider theater of fighting that is notreally in the scope of this thread.




< Message edited by lomyrin -- 7/8/2009 5:46:20 PM >

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Post #: 105
RE: War in China - 7/8/2009 11:05:51 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I will probably continue a few more turns but after that it would involve a much wider theater of fighting that is notreally in the scope of this thread.

Well, you will just have to start it all over again. Maybe by puting more pressure on the north, to try to kill the commies.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 106
RE: War in China - 7/9/2009 12:36:58 AM   
lomyrin


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From: San Diego
Status: offline 		China in their impulse retreated to fill the holes in their southern lines and to protect HQ Chiang from a surround situation. They had to abandon Nanning in the process though.

Japan continues with winter weather and moves up to close with the Chinese again in the south. They enter Nanning and attack the south end of the Chinese lines wit ha +8 but rolled a 5 for a net 13 with all the Japanese disrupted for no gain but also no losses. They mainatain enought garrsion to not worry about partisans.
Japan has moved a Mechanized Div to the north front in order to force Blitz attacks when the weather clears.
Even at a 50% end ofturn chance the turn continues with another Chinese impulse.





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< Message edited by lomyrin -- 7/9/2009 12:38:14 AM >

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Post #: 107
RE: War in China - 7/9/2009 6:41:08 PM   
lomyrin


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Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		The J/F turn ended with the Chinese impulse with no changes in positions.

March/April 41 began with summer like weather, fine everywhere and the Chinese has the initiative and move first. The new arrivals move towards the front.

Japan seeing the fine weather goes all out on the attack. Ground strikes in the north and south both fail but Japan has enough forces to attack with their Mech unit forcing a blitz west of Si-An that knocks out a CAV and a Mil with no ill effect on the Japanese units.

In the south an attack northeast of Chihkiang fails with a roll of 4, no losses to either side but all the Japanese units are disorganized.
An attack at the south end of the front line succeeds, killing a Chinese CAV and leaving all Japanese units ready for more fights.





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Post #: 108
RE: War in China - 7/9/2009 8:23:50 PM   
Norden_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I will probably continue a few more turns but after that it would involve a much wider theater of fighting that is notreally in the scope of this thread.

Well, you will just have to start it all over again. Maybe by puting more pressure on the north, to try to kill the commies.


Hear, hear .
We are a starved wolfpack here!
Feed us, even scraps!




_____________________________

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---------------------------------------------------------------
Hexagonally challenged

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Post #: 109
RE: War in China - 7/10/2009 12:53:32 AM   
lomyrin


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Status: offline 		The Chinese worked hard in their impulse to maintain a front both in the north and the south. All this fine weather everywhere in March/April is not to their liking and iincreases their danger.

Impulse 4 and Japan still feels that the US is a long way from posing a direct danger so Japan can mount allout attacks and still have time to get ready for the Pacific later on.

Japan attacks with blitz again in the north forest hex and kills a Communist infantry unit with no ill effect on their own.

In the south and attack SW of Chihkiang kills aChinese CAV and a Japanese Mil and all Japanese units are disorganized.

Further south another attack using Yamamoto HQ support kills a Chinese Infantry unit but all the Japanese a re disorganized here too.

This leaves Japan with not very much more they can do this turn with most of their army disorganized.




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Post #: 110
RE: War in China - 7/10/2009 3:51:31 PM   
composer99


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Status: offline 		Good thing for China the Japanese are just about at the limit of their supply lines in the south (until they occupy Indochina and can advance up the rail line towards Kunming). Otherwise the Chinese army could be smashed up in May/June in the north temperate part of the line. Blockers should be deployed out of Chungking to prevent a lucky Japanese occupation of the city whilst empty.

The Japanese have, I think, reached the limit of their spread in the north. A division or fast CAV should be sent to menace the resource near Lan-Chow and force the Communists to defend it and the city to slow down their build-up and counter-offensives.

All in all given their poor dice (so many 13 results!) the Japanese have done reasonably well for themselves.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

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Post #: 111
RE: War in China - 7/10/2009 4:36:06 PM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Good thing for China the Japanese are just about at the limit of their supply lines in the south (until they occupy Indochina and can advance up the rail line towards Kunming). Otherwise the Chinese army could be smashed up in May/June in the north temperate part of the line. Blockers should be deployed out of Chungking to prevent a lucky Japanese occupation of the city whilst empty.

The Japanese have, I think, reached the limit of their spread in the north. A division or fast CAV should be sent to menace the resource near Lan-Chow and force the Communists to defend it and the city to slow down their build-up and counter-offensives.

All in all given their poor dice (so many 13 results!) the Japanese have done reasonably well for themselves.


As for Indochina it is Free French in this game, the flag there is small at this scale and a bit hard to note. A Japanese entry into Indochina would require war on Free France which is not likely at this stage.

There is a Chinese unit coming next turn that will be going to Chungking and one of the Communist units may be going south towards Chengtu. The Nationalist warlord in the central mountain city may have to retreat towards Chengtu or Chungking also.

The Japanese here have the advantage of a seemingly very low US entry level, the highest entry action on Japan is the strategic embargo and in Europe it is the East Coast escorts.

Japan has several Divs entering in the next turn in preparations for the PAcific war.



(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 112
RE: War in China - 7/10/2009 8:02:50 PM   
lomyrin


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Status: offline 		The Chinese get some reprieve with the southern front safe from any attacks for this turn with the Japanese all disorganized.
In the north the Communist LanChow warlord unit moves southward to block Japanese moves in the Chengtu direction.

The weather is still fine everywhere but the impulse advances 2 per side now. Japan sends 2 more corps into Canton and sends home two Transports that were in Canton. One unit moves south in the Chengtu direction in the north. There are no attacks. Japan closed the Burma road to stop the CW from sending an oil per turn into Kunming. This did cause a US entry hit.




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Post #: 113
RE: War in China - 7/10/2009 8:08:04 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

The Chinese get some reprieve with the southern front safe from any attacks for this turn with the Japanese all disorganized.
In the north the Communist LanChow warlord unit moves southward to block Japanese moves in the Chengtu direction.

The weather is still fine everywhere but the impulse advances 2 per side now. Japan sends 2 more corps into Canton and sends home two Transports that were in Canton. One unit moves south in the Chengtu direction in the north. There are no attacks. Japan closed the Burma road to stop the CW from sending an oil per turn into Kunming. This did cause a US entry hit.




I don't approve of keeping Mao out of the front line. He would have to earn his portion of rice in my army. If you put him on the flank where it would be difficult for the Japanese to attack him with good odds, he would be relatively safe. As it is, you could have played the entire campaign so far with Mao in the force pool.

_____________________________

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Post #: 114
RE: War in China - 7/10/2009 10:25:47 PM   
lomyrin


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Status: offline 		HQ Mao was on the front lines from November/December 39 through July/Augist 40. After that he was at the rear with more nimble units at the front. After all, Mao was more equal than the other equals in that system of politics.

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Post #: 115
RE: War in China - 7/11/2009 12:17:48 AM   
lomyrin


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Status: offline 		The Chinese in impulse 9 now finallt have winter weather back, snow in the north and rain in the south. And impulse advance of +3 so there is not much left of this turn.

Mao has returnedto the front to plug a new hole caused by the LanChow warlord moving south to block Japanese advances in that direction. Mao was the only unit available to plug the now hole in the lines.

In the south the Nationalists are doing their best to redress the lines even though they now are in less defensible hex locations the line is better.
The Chengtu warlord in Ankang has left the city and is moving back towards the central valley since some Japanese units appearto be moving in that direction.




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Post #: 116
RE: War in China - 7/11/2009 1:47:49 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
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Status: offline 		The March/April 41 turn ended early and Japan won the initiative for May/Jun after using a reroll. The new turn starts with fine weather everywhere.

China built 2 Garrison units and the Lanchow Mil. Japan built an Infantry and ships and planes for the coming Pacific war.

Reinforcements were a Garrison unit in Chungking and the Mil in Lanchow for China, Japan got several Divisions and a CV in preparation for the expanded war coming.


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Post #: 117
RE: War in China - 7/11/2009 2:06:32 AM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		three words - Chinese Cavalry division

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Post #: 118
RE: War in China - 7/11/2009 3:30:56 AM   
Jagdtiger14


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

three words - Chinese Cavalry division



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Post #: 119
RE: War in China - 7/11/2009 4:37:08 AM   
brian brian

 

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I know that real early on perhaps the Chinese can not afford this luxury, but really they have to do something to tweak the Japanese somehow. They can't just wait till the lucky partisans appear and cause problems, as much as this will be nice on the new map.

So far to me the new map has appeared to be more mobile than I had anticipated. Given this and the plethora of Chinese supply sources all over the place, I don't understand the Chinese keep-your-enemies-close strategy; it won't be hard for them to move back forward later in the war. Once the Japanese have a resource and the means to haul it out of China, why not retreat from the area all together? What is in eastern Kweichow province or the Yellow River valley west of Si-An worth defending? And why ever be in any hex except a mountain hex? Let the Japanese come on in.....they don't have the logistics to go very far very easily and once war with the USA draws out all the garrison units, the partisans will (?) finally make advanced Japanese positions much more tenuous.

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 120
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